PVP should NOT affect PVE
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2005-04-27 22:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Agreed.
Agree
Any change to PvE because of PvP balance is a development failure.
Cryptic you need to hire some new SW-developers...
Add me to that community too!
PvP should be on its own server with its own nerfs.
I would much rather have had the Devs work on better things like zones, powers, villians, content, a 50+ game, ATs etc. instead of tying up the resources for the Arena. This has come up many times in group chat, and still I have not met one person who is looking forward to PvP.
Leave PvP for First Person Shooters.
"All that crap is grey to me ... no xp" -- Positron
Count me in agreement.
When you make changes to PvE to "balance" PvP, you affect the balance of PvE, a balance that has existed rather well for more than a year.
[ QUOTE ]
Change and balance all you want for PVP, I don't care. Just keep the changes out of my PVE game, as was promised.
[/ QUOTE ]/agreed. Its own servers even better.
Been out of town for a week, and only checked the forums briefly...
Would someone steer me towards a post that states that a power was 'nerfed' for PvE because of PvP and not because the developers decided it was overpowered as-is with PvE?
Thanks.
I have to admit that I agree, each section of the game should be balanced independently.
Agreed. I'm sure lots of COH players are completely stoked about PvP but I was not one of them. My characters were built for PvE, The Arena is a secondary afterthought to me.
I have a lot of toons of each AT on more than one server. There are so many changes affecting all of them in some way, whether big or small, I'm not sure how to adjust/fix them all. Tactics changes will be the easiest to do, but the hardest to get used to. If I run in at SS & Flash/GDF/Nova/etc now I'm deadmeat.
So WH, IH, SS, SJ, MoG, etc, etc are all different from how I planned them to be/thought they would be, so I have to Respec to at least change some slotting around if not actual powers themselves. You can flame me or call me lazy or whatever, but I don't really want to HAVE to do 9 Respec Trials...
Agreed.
A post of mine in another thread
[ QUOTE ]
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP.
Especially since, way back when PVP was first mentioned, we were promised it would not affect PVE. The dev team PROMISED us this.
I guess it was like the promise that any new costume options (read capes and auras) would be available in the character creator as soon as they were implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two points.
1] You are assuming that the resent changes were soley based on PvP ... Got any proof?
2] They didn't Promise.
My question to you is: [Note: You as in the OP and all that are /agreeing]
If all of the "nerfs" to powers were soley based on PvP ... How come the following "Buffs" aren't also only based on PvP. And why arn't you complaining also about them?
------------------------------------------------------------
Now Testing in the Training Room as of 4/27/05:
Powers:
o Elude now also offers a Recovery boost. PvP/PvE
Now Testing in the Training Room as of 4/21/05:
Powers:
o Fixed taunt powers so they will cause fleeing villains to return, unless they are affected by a Fear power.
Now Testing in the Training Room as of 4/13/05:
Powers:
o Increased Disorient time for Wormhole.
o Modified how foes run out of Freezing rain. They will avoid it slightly less.
o Increased (nearly doubled) the Regeneration buff of Fast Healing.
o Rooted now offers protection from Immobilize.
o Increased the Regeneration buff of Fitness/Health.
Now Testing in the Training Room as of 3/29/05:
Powers:
o Decreased the Endurance cost of Volcanic Gasses.
o Decreased the Endurance cost of Jack Frost and Singularity
Now Testing in the Training Room as of 3/22/05:
Powers
o Improved Max Stealth capability (High stealthy powers like Superior Invisibility can now better protect against foes with high Perception, like Snipers).
o Removed the base -30% Damage Resistance debuff from Kheldians and decreased their base HP by 12.5% (this gives them an effective net increase in HP).
o Increased Kheldians Base Range Damage. This gives them 4% less base damage than Defenders when solo.
o Increased the Damage Bonus Kheldians get from the appropriate teammates to +20% each. This makes their damage equivalent to Blasters with 3 teammates of the appropriate archetype, and +50% greater damage than Blasters with 7 teammates of the appropriate archetype.
o Increased Damage resistance of Singularity.
o Increased Damage resistance of Animate Stone.
o Increased Jack Frost's resistance to Cold. Jack Frost now has a permanent Chilling Embrace. Jack Frost Power now accepts Slow Enhancements. Jack Frost is now highly resistant to Slow effects (recharge and movement).
o Increased Gravity Control/Propel damage.
o Significantly increased the Max HP of Kheldians while in Dwarf form.
o Radiation Emission/EM Pulse now also drains Endurance and accepts Endurance Drain Enhancements.
o Radiation Emission/EM Pulse now also debuffs targets Regeneration rate.
o Increased the Damage buff of Leadership/Assault and Vengeance by 50%.
o Doubled the effectiveness of the Recharge Boost of Empathy/Adrenaline boost.
o Increased based movement of pets.
o Gravity Control/Wormhole is now an AoE (Wormhole applied a Disorient, so now Gravity Control has another AoE Control power). Recharge Time was increased to compensate.
o Dark Miasma/Howling Twilight now restores Full Hit Points and Endurance to those you resurrect. This power no longer accepts Heal and Recovery Enhancements (it already restores the maximum HP and END, so there is nothing to Enhance).
o Defenders and Controllers will now drain more Endurance when using powers that drain endurance. More specifically, Defenders will drain more endurance when using Electricity Blast than a Blaster using the same power. Controller will now drain more endurance with powers such as Transfusion, but Defenders will still drain more than Controllers.
o Increased the invulnerable time after you cast Rise of the Phoenix (Tanker and Ancillary versions)
o Modified powers that protect you from controlling effects. They will all now generally improve over level.
o Reduced Ice Blast/Blizzard Duration and increased its Damage.
o Dark Miasma/Tar Patch now also debuffs affected targets damage resistance and prevents foes from jumping and flying.
o Dark Miasma/Twilight Grasp now debuff the targeted foes Regeneration Rate.
o Dark Miasma/Howling Twilight now debuff the targeted foes Regeneration Rate.
o Kinetics/Transfusion now debuff the targeted foes Regeneration Rate.
o Kinetics/Siphon Speed now also transfers attack rate (debuffs targets attack rate and buffs the casters).
o Radiation Emission/Lingering Radiation now also debuffs targets Regeneration rate.
o Increased the duration of the Freezing Rains debuffs.
o Increased Defenders Freezing Rain Slow debuff.
o Earth Control/Quicksand now debuffs a targets defense and prevents foes from flying or jumping.
o Tanker Hurl and Hurl Boulder and Scrapper/Spines/Impale can now knock flyers down.
o Improved/decreased the cast time of siphon speed.
o Reduced the END cost of Dark Nova Bolt and Dark Nova Blast.
o Increase Time Bomb Accuracy.
o Dark Armor/Murky Cloud, Stone Armor/Rooted, Storm Summoning/O2 Boost, Radiation Emission/Accelerate Metabolism, and Force Field/Insulation Field now offer resistance to Endurance Drain effects.
o Increased Immobilization Protection in Combat Jumping. Also, Protection now increases over level.
o Increase Range and Decreased Interrupt times of Medicine/Aid Other and Stimulant.
o Added some Immobilization protection to Cloak of Darkness.
o Warshade Shadow Cloak now somewhat protects you from Immobilization, and Stealth.
o Warshade/Stygian Circle: Added Endurance gain per defeated foe drained. Significantly reduced its Endurance activation cost.
o Blizzard, Ice Slick, Ice Patch, Earthquake, and Freezing Rain will no longer knock lower level minions out of the affected area.
o You can now attack targets while Superior Invisibility is on. Superior Invisibility is the only self toggle invisibility power that allows you to attack while it is active.
o Added missing attack types to Gravity powers (defense now applies to all gravity attacks). (Player and Villain versions).
o Reduced Endurance cost of Black Hole, Dimension Shift and Detention Field. .
o Super Reflexes/Quickness now also resists slow effects.
o Increased Ice Armor/Wet Ice resistance to slow effects.
o Empathy/Adrenaline Boost now also grants the target resistance to slow effects.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
-------------------------
Is this about perma-elude and perma-MoG? Those were powers that needed changing LONG ago, when the tankers lost their perma-unstoppable.
I agree with the idea that PvP should never affect PvE. I also believe the devs have done a great job of keeping that in check.
So, no complaints here. There have been PvP changes that affected PvE too but those were all warranted.
[ QUOTE ]
Is this about perma-elude and perma-MoG? Those were powers that needed changing LONG ago, when the tankers lost their perma-unstoppable.
I agree with the idea that PvP should never affect PvE. I also believe the devs have done a great job of keeping that in check.
So, no complaints here. There have been PvP changes that affected PvE too but those were all warranted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, what the heck are you smooking? Either you are just trolling or else your in total denial of the current changes.
I also will sign up with the people who feel that PvP changes should NOT be carried over to PvE.
I won't PvP.
I never planned on PvPing.
I won't even do it with CoV.
I play this game for the great PvE fun. Nothing more.
I'm sorry, I'm not smoking anything, nor am I trolling.
I agree with the orignal statement that PvP should not affect PvE. I stand by my opinion that the devs are keeping to that rule very well.
The perma-scrappers are no longer possible. Good! I have a 47 regen and I never took MoG because I felt too guilty - I team with a now 50 invincible tank and he lost HIS perma power. As he should - and now I can't do perma MoG, and all is well.
The accuracy debuff in the travel powers sucks..I hadn't noticed it before. But it evens them out. An argument could be made that fly deserves a speed boost now though.
So, perma scrappers nerf, travel powers nerf, and some minor changes and bugfixes. Is this the end of the world?
I still don't see it, sorry. Are you guys taking this as a sign that the devs will be more loose with the rules later on? I still think all changes currently on the test server are just perfectly fine.
Why is the latest set of changes so bad to cause multiple threads like this one to pop up?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I'm not smoking anything, nor am I trolling.
I agree with the orignal statement that PvP should not affect PvE. I stand by my opinion that the devs are keeping to that rule very well.
The perma-scrappers are no longer possible. Good! I have a 47 regen and I never took MoG because I felt too guilty - I team with a now 50 invincible tank and he lost HIS perma power. As he should - and now I can't do perma MoG, and all is well.
The accuracy debuff in the travel powers sucks..I hadn't noticed it before. But it evens them out. An argument could be made that fly deserves a speed boost now though.
So, perma scrappers nerf, travel powers nerf, and some minor changes and bugfixes. Is this the end of the world?
I still don't see it, sorry. Are you guys taking this as a sign that the devs will be more loose with the rules later on? I still think all changes currently on the test server are just perfectly fine.
Why is the latest set of changes so bad to cause multiple threads like this one to pop up?
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you a question and please give a honest reply:
Do you really think the change to SS/SJ would have happen if there was no PvP in issue 4?
Thank you for putting it like that. That makes it clearer for me 
The answer would be no. I can still argue my way around it, though... the reason Fly has an acc debuff is because most villains can't touch you. SS and SJ have been extensively used in PvP to make sure nobody touches you. They can be used the same way in PvE. Flight just has that mental picture of a hovering blaster being practically invulnerable (note: mental picture, not harsh reality 
) - hence the debuff since day 1.
PvP made the similarity in travel powers a lot more obvious and that's why the change came. At least, the way I look at it
While even now I still agree with the changes, I understand the protest against them. Sorry I took such an opposing position - I just hope the other side can think again about these changes and find a more peaceful middle ground too
Perhaps a quick look at all travel powers to even them out would help. Half the acc penalty on the travel powers and increase flight speed?
The travel power nerf is a little disconcerting. I'll give you that one.
But the perma-MoG and perma-Elude removal was something I saw coming a mile away. If you've been reading the scrapper changes at all you would see the testing was done in PvE. Neither power was meant to be this super, uber buff to be on all the time. A typical tactic from reflexes scrappers was to respec out everything except the starting power, Practiced Brawler, Quickness and Elude. That right there should have been a red flag on that one.
Other than that, I can't see what else is being changed solely due to PvE, and just about every change being made is a buff to an existing power.
Yeah, life's rough.
(Also, if you look at the history of this game, there's a 10:1 ratio of powers that have been enhanced versus nerfed.)
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
I'm wondering if people are going to blame all power changes on the arena now that it's part of the game.
Pure speculation here but the stealth in super speed was added to protect you during traveling. however it is being heavily used to stack with stealth in order to get full effective invisibility yet still be able to attack. The dev's have an obvious will to not allow anyone the ability to attack while fully invisible. that, on it's own, explains the super speed accuracy penalty.
As for super jump, I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind it. The only time i've used SJ in combat was while herding with a tank if i was slowed like mad, all I do then is taunt which now auto-hits so it's not a problem. While I can't see why the accuracy penalty is in SJ, I also have never seen anyone actively use it in combat to a great advantage. It was probably done to bring it in line with Fly and SS and to cement it's use as a travel power over a combat power.
The only thing that I remember the dev's saying is that they will "balance" PvP separately from PvE, not that power changes will no longer come after the arena is out. The good side of the arena in all this is that it might bring certain "less effective" sets to light and get them some love.
[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you a question and please give a honest reply:
Do you really think the change to SS/SJ would have happen if there was no PvP in issue 4?
[/ QUOTE ]
Dunno what the person you're asking will say about this, but I'll take a pop at the question. Here I go:
Yes.
Particularly in SS' case, the power was too good compared to other travel powers, the inherent aggro management built into the power to make it usable running down city streets was obviously not intended as a shortcut for getting around taking Stealth. Testing in the Arena mostly likely helped bring this issue to the Dev's attention, but the problem was already there pre-Arena and would have been changed eventually with or without Arena testing. You do see there is a difference in powers changed *for* PvP and powers changed *as a result* of high-visibility PvP testing, right?
IMO, anyone who *didn't* see this coming are the ones suffering a little self-delusion. Maybe they thought that certain powers were sacred calves never to be touched, looks like the Devs disagree. Now that we see that the Holy SS is indeed touchable, next on the tweak list - Hasten, that 70% is going way down.
I do think these alterations are large enough now that we might see a free respec now, tho.
Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains
There's a bigger problem with these changes than the actual "hit" to powers.
[ QUOTE ]
Things like these force the people who claimed that PvP wouldn't affect PvE to eat crow. No one likes to eat crow and it makes them quicker to distrust the next "oh don't worry" statement from the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs never said that PVP and PVE changes would be exclusive. Statesman said that AS A LAST RESORT they would consider making PVP or PVE changes exclusive if they deem it necessary.
He said that he does not believe a power should act differently in PVP than it does in PVE. It's like having a controller hold power in PVE suddenly be turned into a controller confuse power for PVP. Though that's a radical change, that's the basic foundation for where I think his philosophy stems from.
Currently right now until testing is done none of these changes are going to be PVP or PVE exclusive, you need to test it out so that they could DATA mine the information in order to continue making more changes.
I pulled this from another thread.
Excerpts from this post from Statesman:
[ QUOTE ]
Theres also the issue of PvP. Wed like to avoid touching powers as much as possible because of PvP imbalances. This is mainly because a good many people dont PvP and dont plan to; wed like to avoid affecting their game experience. Sometimes, however, there it is inevitable because theres not another way to get balance.
One thing that rereading this thread has done is underscore the importance of communication. It would have been nice if we posted our explanation of the changes at the same time as the patch went to the Training Server. That was an oversight on my part, to be honest. I need to be more vigilant about power changes and make sure we let everyone know at least the reasons behind something. It was a couple of days before Geko made his informative post behind the changes and quantified them better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, many of these changes effect our PvE experience in a negative way (if implemented on Live). Are these changes based on PvP? I would think so but as the quote states, communication is key and the devs haven't communicated why these changes are being done.
so the changes to unstoppable in issue 3 were because of pvp?
pvp is the new thing to blame, since pvp is being tested now every change is because of pvp.
ss and sj get a 50% accuracy debuff, just like flight has had. hell flight still isnt up to par with its speed and end cost.
moment of glory and elude get timer increased, just like unstoppable. seems consistant to me
people are always gonna find a reason to gripe i guess, wether it is warranted or not
[ QUOTE ]
We were promised PVP would not affect PVE, back when PVP was announced.
We were promised this.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you believed it?
[plankton]
That naive FOOL!
[/plankton]
[qote]It was a promise that I knew would be broken, but I still don't understand why.
[/ QUOTE ]
Developers are required to make promises they know cannot be kept and then break them. It's expected of them by marketing.
We were promised PVP would not affect PVE, back when PVP was announced.
We were promised this.
It was a promise that I knew would be broken, but I still don't understand why.
There are those of us, there are in fact a large number of us, who don't care about PVP and don't plan to set foot in the arena once it goes live. It is IMMENSELY frustrating to have so many powers so radically altered in such a short time when nothing of the sort would have happened had the Arena not been created. I liked my PVE the way it was. Unless you're a Defender, most of the changes are not going to make PVE better, they are in fact going to make it less fun.
Change and balance all you want for PVP, I don't care. Just keep the changes out of my PVE game, as was promised. I'm really becoming sick of it, and so it seems are many other players. A word of warning; the limit of tolerance is close to being reached by the community on the boards. The general explosion over the latest patch notes holds this feeling. Too much more and you're going to lose players in large numbers. I know that's been threatened before, but I'm not threatening, I'm just taking the temperature of the community and making an observation.
At any rate, and speaking only for myself, my account is not set to renew when it expires next month and after this latest round of nerf-herding I certainly don't plan to change that situation.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson