Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2005-03-22 14:26 in Developers' Corner
The idea of using the new wormhole to bring a group on top of a field of tripmines is awesome. I know there are some great uses for the new wormhole, and I'll end up using many of them. Fulcrum Shift will probably work well with it, but I'm a couple levels away from trying it.
I would like to have the new wormhole but keep the old one with a faster casting time. I typically use the old one to bring a mob closer so I can Transfusion/Transference them. I would just love it if I could do that much faster than before. Currently I would enjoy the speed increase and removal of knockback more than the AoE.
Heck, make Dimensional shift a fast acting single target power and you might find people using it more.
Just for the reccord, Dimension Shift was never as worthless as everyone seemed to think on the forums either. I mean, it WAS a power that, unslotted, with just the base SO in it, could remove an entire group from combat, INCLUDING BOSSES, for a longer time than it took to recharge.
Could it be used in ways that annoy teams? Certainly. But then, lots of gravity powers can. (As anyone who has succumbed to the dark call of planting singularities in the middle of tank herds knows...) The theme of gravity seems to be more "hard to use well" than "gimped". Sure dimension shift is a fairly situational power, but in those situations, it is incredibly powerful.
(The devs obviously thought so too, since they tweaked it (and it's cousins Detention field, and black hole) a bit in preperation of PvP.)
Surely you people have noticed that there are no defenses against being phased. I predict that gravity is going to be an incredible team player in PvP, since we have not one, but TWO powers that let us remove people from combat, that there is NO RESISTANCE AGAINST. You can't resist being wormholed. You can't resist being dimension shifted. You can try to bump your defense up high enough that the controller misses, but if they hit, there's nothing you can do.
So before people come down TOO hard on dimension shift, think for a moment. Do we REALLY want to try to bargain away the only unresistable status effect in ANY controller set? (at least that I can think of... Feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting something)
I've never had Wormhole, except for a brief run on the Test Server using a Respec. I was considering getting it after my testing, but with the new proposed changes, maybe not.
My suggestion is this...use the same technique the Devs used with Tanks and the Knockback enhancment. Either use an already-allowed Enhancement (not sure which ones are allowed currently), to let the user choose between making Wormhole a single or AoE power; or allow another Enhancement into the selection that would do the same thing. That way, the Controller can choose whether they want Wormhole to affect single or multiple targets.
(Liberty) Trick Dacy - Forge Steel - Hypother Mia
(Freedom) Folgus Sprit
(Infinity) Marcus Solomon
(Protector) Thylacine
(Justice) Ashkicker - Revile
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Just for the reccord, Dimension Shift was never as worthless as everyone seemed to think on the forums either. I mean, it WAS a power that, unslotted, with just the base SO in it, could remove an entire group from combat, INCLUDING BOSSES, for a longer time than it took to recharge.
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The problem with Dimension Shift isn't that it's 'worthless'. It does its job very, very well. The problem is the side effect of doing that job so well. Most groups hate the fact that DSed villians can't be affected by anything. Trust me, I've tried using DS in many different situations, and the only time it was better to use it than not was when the group was completely overwhelmed. The fact that in today's game groups are rarely put in that position might be more of a general game problem than a DS problem, but the impact on DS is that it's a rarely used power. Certainly a power that's even more situational than Wormhole currently is, and it offers less utility.
Dimension Shift does it's job well, there's just few situations where people are willing to put up with Intangibility as a side effect.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
Ok well, here are my thoughts on the subject and they aren't pretty...
Apparently, it seems, the Dev's either aren't listening to what we are saying or if they are they aren't understanding the issues clearly...
1. Grav has less overall or group control than any other controller. (control gap) This makes us very suspect for invite into any large scale group/mission. We have fewer options, get them much later on, and ultimately MUST rely on a secondary source (secondary powers or 40+ power pools) to compensate for what other controllers get early on just in their primaries. And if yer not Grav/Rad, well...
2. Grav has the longest animations and casting times of any controller. Recast timers suffer similar lengthy waits. Why?
3. Grav has crap for secondary effects. (resist knockback?!?! Craptastic!) How can you possibly compare this with -Res, -Rech, -Acc, etc.? And even then, Crushing Field rarely does even that much that it's supposed to do.
4. Grav uses one of the most highly resisted power types. Which means by default, even with craptastic secondary effects, craptastic hold coverage, CRAPTASTIC DAMAGE, etc, we can also count on being resisted more than any other controller. Weeeeeee!
5. We do next to last in damage for controllers. For controllers! Is it not enough that we already cast/recast slower? Have crap for secondary effects? AND use the most highly resistable form of holds and damage? With FEWER control options TO BEGIN WITH!
6. Our Pets do very little to address any of these issues as they are designed to a) attack SINGLE target foes and b) hold them with minimal COMPARITIVE TO OTHER PETS damage.
So, to sum up... Gravity is a noticably inferior controller in any large group or team setting due to innadequit AoE control options, significantly slower activation/recharge times, with inferior secondary effects that are mostly worthless, with greatly inferior damage potential, and pets that do not serve to shore up any of these weaknesses as they are also designed primarilly around single target attacks... all this while using the most heavily resisted attack type in the game.
Is this getting through to anyone upstairs???? By comparison to any other controller AT, Grav very simply, sucks. It's going to take more than just a few minor tweaks to fix this AT.
Propel. More damage is nice. But so what. By the time it hits the mob the mob has been killed three times over by the other party members. Waste of a power slot. You will be hitting air more often than mobs because the casting time and animation is simply rediculous. (like with most other gravity powers) Make the damn thing an AoE or reduce the cast time by at least 2 seconds... otherwise, skip.
Worm Hole. I actually like the change with a couple of caveats. 1. Increase the disorient duration so it actually IS a group control option in reality and not just in overly optimistic patch notes. 2. Fix the stringing out of mobs that come through the other side. If they cant be placed as a bunched group the power is worthless to a team. "Thanks for spreading them all out bro, very helpful." Lastly, return the functionality of the old Worm Hole by making Dimension Shift a single target attack. That way we can still do precision "cuts" of Bosses, and stasis effect mobs such as FF generators. Return it to it's previous cast times and duration and call it good. If we could pick and choose what to phase out the DS becomes a worthy AND POPULAR power.
As it is, I could not be more disapointed with the Dev's understanding and effort in regards to Gravity's delima.
These "quick fixes" without any real consideration for what our true issues are just make me want to ditch my 35 Grav.
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Also, please note that the biggest advocate against wormhole had a gravity controller but deleted her. For those that currently play a gravi/* controller have, for the most part, found good application for it. I for one think that it is a good alpha strike as well as an excellent tool for herding (which, coincidentally, also involves packing large groups against fences and in corners)
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If you mean the new Wormhole, Morighan currently has a gravity controller; UnicyclePeon isn't the only one typing manifestos about it.
For that matter I personally think UP and Morighan make lots of good points, so I wasn't bothering to pop up every few posts with "me too". Should I? 
The new Wormhole is interesting. It's obviously debatable whether it's as all-around useful as the old one. It seems to me that there's a very good case to be made that one of the weaker (and I use that term out of kindness) powers in the set could have been used to address the control gap, rather than horking Wormhole. Change CF to be AoE stun ... or add AoE stun to Propel ... or do something useful with DS. Yeah there would be someone somewhere upset about such a change, but the point is not to try to find a change that no one will mind, because that will never happen. The point is to find the best change, and it's hard for me to believe that giving up the current functionality of WH entirely is in fact the best possible change.
Note that I am not frothing at the mouth about this. Whatever happens, happens... I will go on playing my "gimpy" Grav controller and enjoying it. Just wanted to let people know that UP is not the only one having a twinge about the new WH.
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Just for the reccord, Dimension Shift was never as worthless as everyone seemed to think on the forums either. I mean, it WAS a power that, unslotted, with just the base SO in it, could remove an entire group from combat, INCLUDING BOSSES, for a longer time than it took to recharge.
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That's pretty much what I don't want. As I said before, I never claimed that this power doesn't "do stuff" but as you said it removes an entire group from combat. This is exactly what I hate. In a team it usually makes everyone wait or confuses everyone. I know based on the way I solo with my other pet-enabled controllers, and my tests with Dim Shift in the past, that I don't want this. I pick and choose each fight carefully, so this power is worthless to me compared to a disorient (which would be offense friendly). In an "oh crap" situation, Dimension Shift is inferior to a disorient in most ways except the boss issue. However, I've been jumped by a new pack with a boss MANY times and have almost never failed to deal with them with the simple use of an offense friendly control power and some minimal strategy on the boss. If I have allies around, the new boss goes bye-bye fast. No waiting.
So yeah Dimension Shift does stuff. Other powers that do other stuff would be better, by getting rid of the control gap.
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Surely you people have noticed that there are no defenses against being phased. I predict that gravity is going to be an incredible team player in PvP, since we have not one, but TWO powers that let us remove people from combat, that there is NO RESISTANCE AGAINST. You can't resist being wormholed. You can't resist being dimension shifted. You can try to bump your defense up high enough that the controller misses, but if they hit, there's nothing you can do.
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So before people come down TOO hard on dimension shift, think for a moment. Do we REALLY want to try to bargain away the only unresistable status effect in ANY controller set? (at least that I can think of... Feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting something)
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I know some people care about PvP, maybe most people for all I know, but that is total rubbish that all the PvE players must suck up having a power that "can be used" but "blows chunks" in PvE compared to other options just because it will be good for PvP. I have to be stinktastic on bread-and-butter control just because the power is good in PvP?
You refuse to accept changes to the most commonly regretted powers in our entire set since day 1 (Dimension Shift, Propel) because the PvP is probably going to be strong and the powers are useable in PvE situationally. I guess I can't blame you. I refuse to accept Wormhole being changed after a year of being awesome, being used in every single fight by the many who have it, and being liked by almost everyone, and which would also rock as a single target PvP power for that matter.
So which of these team-mates will they fire from the team? The one with serious drug use issues who is trying to bounce back (propel)? The one short of breath from too many cigars (dimension shift)? Or the one with a twinkle in its eye (Wormhole)? I mean really. Of course they axed the fit player and brought in another (POSSIBLY more fit but less refined) player. But why not nix one of the slackers? Sure they do stuff but .... egad.
I think at this point maybe we should call for the developers to support more than the standard 9 powers in the standard tiers. After a year into the game, changes to powers like this just aren't satisfied by respecs. People are too attached.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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UnicyclePeon isn't the only one typing manifestos about it.
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I should probably feel embarassed now. I guess from here on out I'm just repeating myself. I'll try to show some compositional restraint for a day. I can go 1 day. I can. Just watch me. *Nervous Look*
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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...
Here is a less drastic suggestion that would return the precision control to wormhole but would incorporate the new AOE disorient -
Have the wormhole teleport only ONE enemy, but have the destination area qualify for an AOE disorient.
It could be described as the re-appearance of the 1 foe causes a disorienting thunderclap. That causes everyone in the targeted area to possibly become disoriented. (and we could use a nice big "BAM!" sound effect too 8)
...
Upsen
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When I first read of the changes, I thought it would still be a single target teleport, but the AOE disorient would affect everyone around the target. This would be similiar to what Upsen proposed but affect the source end vs. the target end of the wormhole.
Maybe the wormhole sucked the air out of the surrounding area making everyone light headed 
This gives the AOE controll over the group in front of you and removes one of the targets.
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By comparison to any other controller AT, Grav very simply, sucks.
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If this wasn't a video game, I'd probably be offended. Gravity controllers are told that they suck so often, that it's becoming some warped self-fulfilling prophecy.
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2. Fix the stringing out of mobs that come through the other side. If they cant be placed as a bunched group the power is worthless to a team.
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I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that this isn't possible based on current game mechanics and the way in which this power currently works, though I could be wrong. Regardless, upping the disorient duration of the power will cause the baddies to unclump anyway. Disorient has a tendency to do that.
Wormhoel has always been a glorified TP Foe. I remember many, many months ago I had to defend it against my fellow Gravity controllers that strongly proclaimed that the power was absolutely worthless. I find it funny that it's now being defended almost as strongly. My, how times have changed.
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UnicyclePeon isn't the only one typing manifestos about it.
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I should probably feel embarassed now.
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Nah.
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By comparison to any other controller AT, Grav very simply, sucks.
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If this wasn't a video game, I'd probably be offended. Gravity controllers are told that they suck so often, that it's becoming some warped self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Well, "sucking" is a gravity sort of thing to do...
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Well, "sucking" is a gravity sort of thing to do...
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Ironically, that's one thing that's actually missing from the set. 
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
What, sucking up a bunch of mobs through a wormhole and spitting them out somewhere else isn't textbook suckage? :P
Touché! Let's just keep it at one mob, though. 
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
Ummm.... yeah... I just did a Kora mission on Unyielding without breaking a sweat. If I can brush off scads of +1 and +2 Rularuu like that then maybe we don't need love, maybe some other powersets need <ahem> downward corrections.
But anyway, did some solo'ing with more 'volunteers' this time. GDF radius is definitely bigger - I was able to do a GDF then wormhole and had enemies that were not moved and did not miss. It's hard to measure but I'm thinking 15' radius.
I'm not seeing this scatter effect. The only time I've had scatter is when some enemies were stopped by a wall (or a hold) and others weren't. I tend to send enemies up against walls almost all the time, though. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Got burned by the AoE once, too. Just for the heck of it, I went after Infernal solo. I tried to pull him away from his alter and I think I got it in the AoE. (And no, the portal did not move.)
I wonder - can you stuff DE emminators into ceilings? I've seen lab equipment get stuck like that.
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That's pretty much what I don't want. As I said before, I never claimed that this power doesn't "do stuff" but as you said it removes an entire group from combat. This is exactly what I hate. In a team it usually makes everyone wait or confuses everyone. I know based on the way I solo with my other pet-enabled controllers, and my tests with Dim Shift in the past, that I don't want this. I pick and choose each fight carefully, so this power is worthless to me compared to a disorient (which would be offense friendly). In an "oh crap" situation, Dimension Shift is inferior to a disorient in most ways except the boss issue. However, I've been jumped by a new pack with a boss MANY times and have almost never failed to deal with them with the simple use of an offense friendly control power and some minimal strategy on the boss. If I have allies around, the new boss goes bye-bye fast. No waiting.
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Hmm. Maybe I'm just going on more interesting missions, or maybe you're finding groups that are better than mine. But I gotta say, there have been MANY times where removing a large chunk of people from combat is EXACTLY what I want to do. So that we can kill the others that are still IN combat in peace, and stuff. As for the comment about disorient, the problem there is that the disorient duration scales with level, and it takes more slots to get things out of the fight for the same time. That's DS's real strength. It takes a lot less slots to take people out of a fight for X time than it does with an AoE disorient. The downside, is, of course, that you can't hit them while they're out of the fight. (DS also has an advantage over the controller disorients in that the disorients have the problem of only working vs foes on the ground, but that's not a major issue in most situations.)
So, this isn't meant to sound inflamitory, but... if you don't use Dimension Shift in your playstyle, then I'm sorry, and not trying to convert you over to the gospel of DS. But kindly keep in mind that there ARE people who have good uses for it and find it quite helpful in the right situation.
This isn't to say that I wouldn't rather have a disorient than DS in many situations. But there are at least some situations where I'd rather have DS than a disorient, so it's not as if it's AUTOMATICALLY worse. And frankly, our area hold makes up for a lot, in my opinion. I think I WOULD rather have a ranged area hold and dimension shift than a PBAoE hold and a disorient. Being able to open a fight, at a range, with our strongest control option is a HUGE benifit.
And as for our control gap, well... I don't know if wormhole will completely cure it, (I doubt it, actually) but... It's not terrible, and I think the change to wormhole will at least move us in the right direction.
We've never been THAT far behind. A gravity controller on the top of their game and on the ball, can perform as well as most other average controllers. We're close enough that most teams don't care about (or even know about) the difference.
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I know some people care about PvP, maybe most people for all I know, but that is total rubbish that all the PvE players must suck up having a power that "can be used" but "blows chunks" in PvE compared to other options just because it will be good for PvP. I have to be stinktastic on bread-and-butter control just because the power is good in PvP?
You refuse to accept changes to the most commonly regretted powers in our entire set since day 1 (Dimension Shift, Propel) because the PvP is probably going to be strong and the powers are useable in PvE situationally. I guess I can't blame you. I refuse to accept Wormhole being changed after a year of being awesome, being used in every single fight by the many who have it, and being liked by almost everyone, and which would also rock as a single target PvP power for that matter.
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It's not a matter of "Refusing to accept change". I frankly don't think there is a whole lot you or I can do about the change. It either will or won't happen, independant of us, I suspect. What I'm saying is "I think I can work with these tools effectively" What you appear to be saying is "we're broke, we need more stuff!"
And keep in mind, that monsters have resists to control effects, just like players do. Wisps are really annoying, because the minions have boss-level hold magnitude. But intangibility works on them just fine. I'm sorry that you feel the power is "stinktastic" in PvE, and I'm sorry that you feel the set as a whole is significantly sub-par. I'm sorry that you don't think you can find good uses for the new wormhole that will offset the loss of the old wormhole.
But I personally think that Dimension Shift DOES have uses in PvE, if the team knows what is going on, and the controller uses it well. I think that the new wormhole will have enough interesting uses to make up for the lack of single-target percision. And I think that the gravity set as a whole, while slightly behind before, is definitely catching up and gaining ground in issue 4. Is it there yet? Maybe not. But it is at least moving in the right direction.
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Also, please note that the biggest advocate against wormhole had a gravity controller but deleted her. For those that currently play a gravi/* controller have, for the most part, found good application for it. I for one think that it is a good alpha strike as well as an excellent tool for herding (which, coincidentally, also involves packing large groups against fences and in corners)
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I'm afraid I'm gonna have to weigh in with the others and say that I'm not thrilled with the new wormhole, and I do in fact still play my gravity controller as my main. If the disorient duration were lengthened, and particularly if it were made a single target port with an AE disorient centered around the point the single target is ported to (not the point they start at), then I'd be pretty happy with it. Right now IMO it's far more situational than the old wormhole, does not address the problem that the devs clearly intend it to address, and basically trades away what utility it had for a heaping mound of "coolness" but not much else. I'm not as attached to the old wormhole as others are, but that doesn't mean I'm very happy with it as it stands on test right now.
I do have to agree with you though (and almost every other grav controller really) that dimension shift is just a really bad power. Sure, you could concoct a theoretical situation in which it could be really, really useful, but the fact is it's a pain in the neck that slows the team down most of the time. Actual, non-theoretical CoH gameplay situations revolve too heavily around damage dealing to make a power that negates the group's ability to deal damage viable.
These powers are only as effective (or not) as you want them to be. You'd actually be suprised at the number of Gravity controllers that actually have, use and like Dimension Shift. It's probably more than you think.
Awesome!
I love the concept of the new Wormhole. I don't care if it can't be used to whisk away DE eminators anymore, that was just finding a niche' use for an odd power anyway. The disorient needs a BIG boost though to make this a viable AoE Disorient power.
Gravity still desperately needs activation times more in line with the other sets. With the change to Wormhole + a boost in disorient duration, I'm fine with Dimension Shift as is.
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But I personally think that Dimension Shift DOES have uses in PvE, if the team knows what is going on, and the controller uses it well.
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The point isn't that Dimension Shift has no uses. It certainly does. Every power in the game has a use. The point is, does it have more uses than Wormhole? Whether you answer yes or no probably depends a great deal on your secondary and playstyle. As a Kinetics secondary, Dimension Shift works against nearly everything I do. Wormhole on the other hand, works very well with my secondary. So clearly for me, Wormhole is a much better power than DS. It's in that context that I offer the suggestion that DS might be a better choice to change than Wormhole. Based on the feedback in this thread, I'm not alone in that opinion. That doesn't mean DS has no uses, just that when compared to the rest of the powers in the set it might be the best choice to adjust instead of Wormhole.
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I think that the new wormhole will have enough interesting uses to make up for the lack of single-target percision.
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Pretty much the entire reason I'm posting in this thread so much is my strong opinion that it doesn't. Now if the new version of Wormhole were somehow going in in addition to the old, that might add some flavor to the set. I don't think it would really help the set all that much, but at least it wouldn't hamper what I can currently do. But then we're back to the same question: what do we take out to fit in both Wormholes? Eyes drift again to DS.
I think the best options for the devs to look at at this point are: Upsen's suggestion of leaving Wormhole a single target, and have the villian trigger an AoE Disorient at its exit point; or fitting in an AoE Lift + Disorient.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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These powers are only as effective (or not) as you want them to be. You'd actually be suprised at the number of Gravity controllers that actually have, use and like Dimension Shift. It's probably more than you think.
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Would I? You're one of I think 2 gravity controllers who've admitted to liking it on the forums. I've never met or even inspected a gravity controller in game who had the power, never mind used it. I don't think I'd be very surprised at all.
You can say all you want that a power is only as useful as you want it to be, but the fact is that at the end of the day some powers will just have overall utility far and away above other powers. In this case, virtually every other AE controller power has overall utility above that of dimension shift. That's not to say that dimension shift couldn't be made into a worthwhile power, but it hasn't hasn't yet and the devs have yet to show any inclination to change it.
That's almost opposite of my experiences. The DS haters are probably greater in number and a LOT more vocal that's for sure, but the Dimension Shift debate has come and gone several times on these forums. Bottom line is, it is used and liked. I may have made it seem more so than it actually it is by the way I posted, but your "matter of fact" statement that DS is a hated and crappy power just isn't the way it is.
I agree with your second statement. My point was I, and several other Gravity posters here, have already found many uses for the new Wormhole that make it far more worthwhile to have than the single-target version. There are a variety of factors that determine this: Playstyle, Secondary, Mindset, etc. The thing that gets me the most about this current "Wormhole Debate" is the fact that, as it stands now, it's a second rate glorified TP foe that rarely ever sees use. Past debates have led me to that conclusion. Long ago my Gravity kin voiced loudly that it, Propel AND DS were all crap and they needed to go. Now that Wormhole is being messed with, the tides have shifted. I find that funny. I wonder what complaints will crawl out of the woodwork if Propel and DS ever are changed... because I can almost guarantee a very vocal minority will come out in disfavor of it.
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Would I? You're one of I think 2 gravity controllers who've admitted to liking it on the forums. I've never met or even inspected a gravity controller in game who had the power, never mind used it. I don't think I'd be very surprised at all.
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I use it. I am I the other one? What do I win?
DS is the debt preventer. The offical "TIME-OUT!" power. Default slot for acc, or slot for accuracy and intagibilty. Use as that "uh, things ain't going so well" action.
BTW Doctor_Gravity, you da man.
I have a lvl 30 Grav/Storm controller. I always knew about Dimensional Shift and never took it the power just seems pointless. And it angers most teams, Tanekrs can't taunt them, Blasters can't blast them, and no one knows when they'll phase back, most cases I've seen, DS = dead squishes. Because a lot of times the mob will chase the blaster and follow him until he rephases, then boom. I think turning DS into old Wormhole fits the set. Look how our powers are set up. We get a single target control power, then the AoE version a few levels later. It seems to fit. Maybe they should add Dimensional Shift to one of the Auxillary Power Pools or something instead of throwing it away.