Issue 4 Changes for Gravity - Official Thread
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2005-03-22 14:26 in Developers' Corner
Ah, okay. Started more serious testing now. Hazard-sized groups of Banished Pantheon, in Dark Astoria (obviously).
The knockback is still in place, and is as strong as ever.
The "stringing" effect seems to be a side-effect of this knockback, acting like Gale to create a cone of knockback as the enemies exit the wormhole.
However, the enemies have so far stayed close enough together to make nice AoE fodder regardless. You might miss a few at the edges of huge groups, but there's no huge scattering like with Gale. I'll make up a demo to display this better.
edit: GDF references removed after better testing.
likely it operates like Team Teleport where the game tries to cram everything into the same spot and pushes some around as it hits colision.
I'll do some testing on this later to see what I can find.
Okay, here we go. I think I'm done testing for now, and was proved wrong as predicted 
You can see the whole Wormhole vs Gale thing in the demos contained in this .zip file.
I just did some testing of my own with lvl 51 Nemesis.
Yeah, the knockback is still there. IMO, this should be made optional i.e. no knockback unless slotted with knockback enhancements.. similar to Tanker KB powers. That would fix that issue nice and quick.
The range it has is still sick. If anything, wormhole can be cycled on some troublesome groups and pushed far enough away to give the team a few seconds break. Combine that with Crushing Field, and you've got a nice little distance hold!
The disorient is weak. I mean really weak. Unslotted it last 4 seconds.. at best. The base disorient of this power really should be increased to compensate for the longer recharge.
Speaking of recharge. I didn't find it "too" bad, but then again I have perma-AM and perma-Hasten. Without any recharge help, the recharge it has doesn't match the duration of the disorient. It really should be bumped up a notch.
Also, the disorient doesn't seem to work on Robot type baddies at all. Jaegers and Malta Titans seemed immune to it's effects. So, heads up on that.
Overall, I'm VERY happy with this change! It could use a few tweaks to make it better, but I'm pleased nonetheless.
Just finished up the last bit of Gravity Testing:
Singularities now have 70% damage resistance verses all types but Psionic. I think they still have capped 90% resistance to Psionic. Will test more when I get the chance.
Looks like its time for me to start playing my level 8 Grav/FF controller again. He has Propel and I just parked him months ago. He seemed to be so hard to solo...even among controllers.
Ill/Kin Level 37
Ill/Rad Level 45
Grav/FF Level 8 (and maybe moving up again)
It is about time that Gravity was brought to the point of viability again. Wish I hadn't deleted Repojam, but them's the breaks.
At least I'll be able to compare it to last time, but I'm still somewhat bothered at the time that wormhole comes. Hopefully a modification was made to where wormhole comes at an earlier level, I don't feel it would be terribly viable to wait that long for an AoE disorient.
That's the problem. We are no more viable than we were before.
Gravity STILL suffers from extremely long animation times.
Gravity STILL has a control gap.
Gravity STILL has subpar secondary effects.
Gravity STILL gets a Pet that is a crutch to make up for the control gap while other controlers get pets that add damage to their already superior control.
People, don't let the eye candy fool you. Falling for these weak "changes" could undo all the petitioning and work we have done to get our powerset some attention.
I'm not fooled. Though I do agree with your main points.
By and large, I've already found some uses for an AoE wormhole. I find it much more appealing and much more useful than the single target version. That's not to say it couldn't be tweaked and made better, but I'm diggin' it.
I can't wait to do some real testing. The server is too slow to get a good feel. Now with syphon speed adding onto perma-hasten I might be able to throw out GDF more than once per battle. Has anyone tried coming up on two groups, wormholing the first in the midde of the second. While wormhole is activating start gdf and then capture both groups at the same time? Could make for some awesome setups for an AOE blaster.
Also I want to throw out a question. Do we know if siphon speed stacks? If so there is potential for some super fast stuff.
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Also I want to throw out a question. Do we know if siphon speed stacks? If so there is potential for some super fast stuff.
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Some Kin defender was testing it already and reported it has 0.25 recharge modifier and stacks with itself. Not sure if you controllers get 0.25 as well.
GDF with 2 recharge and Hasten, 51 second recharge, 46 seconds with one SS buff, 42 seconds with two assuming it is 0.25. Should definitely be noticeable even if it isn't quite a Hasten replacement.
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I can't wait to do some real testing. The server is too slow to get a good feel. Now with syphon speed adding onto perma-hasten I might be able to throw out GDF more than once per battle. Has anyone tried coming up on two groups, wormholing the first in the midde of the second. While wormhole is activating start gdf and then capture both groups at the same time? Could make for some awesome setups for an AOE blaster.
Also I want to throw out a question. Do we know if siphon speed stacks? If so there is potential for some super fast stuff.
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Just fooled a bit with wormhole, the disorient is indeed not long enough to exactly "capture" anything. I'm holding out judgement on it, since it can easily be used as an AE lift just like a lot of us were asking for, and that could be useful. Once the test server is less crowded and less laggy I'll try to give it some real combat testing.
Don't want to be a wet blanket... I'm looking forward to trying this stuff out... but up until now the usefulness of Wormhole to me has been as a precision grabber. Punt DE drops and forcefield generators far away; bring back runners; move specific mobs nearer to my sings or into the cluster around my friendly neighborhood spines-scrapper teammate.
I guess the "bring back" functions may work OK, but the "send away" functions just got a lot messier at best.
Yeah 3 second animation times, a 4-5 second AoE disorient, and more damage on propel but with such a long recharge it isnt worth it (Spectral is barely worth it in DPS) .. the disorient could have made everything else merely irritating if it's base duration was 80% - 100% of Flashfires. It could have been enough.
Now I can't imagine what I'd do with Wormhole other than drop a bunch of foes inside a Choking Cloud or a trio of Singularities. Doesn't seem worth it.
I guess I'll just keep watching the forums. The mad rush to level my Gravity Controller ended as fast as it started though.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
For those types that like the numbers, I calculate a brawl index of 5.45. No, not 5.4444.
The raw data from an AMed lvl 22 controller:
Propel: 39.75
Brawl: 7.29
That leads to the conclusion that the BI is between 5.4571036 and 5.4482522. Repetitions at a few different numbers should narrow the margin further, but it seems close enough to me.
Gandhi 2 - Inf - lvl 50 AR/Dev Bla, Gazebo - Virt - lvl 50 Ice/SS Tank, Ms. Summers - Champ - lvl 50 MA/Inv Scr, Rachel Rosen - Lib - lvl 50 Ice/Emp Ctrl
Kiaransalee - Virt - lvl 50 Nec/Pois Mmd, Tierna - Vic - lvl 50 SS/Stone Bru
(and many <50s)
Are you talking about Propel?
BTW, currently if you Speed Boost a Singularity, it actually casts Siphon Speed on it. I.e. you get faster, Singularity gets slower. Doh! (Yes I /bug'd it.)
Bah I posted this in the wrong thread before, shoulda put it here:
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If you ask me, Grav got nerfed more than it was improved. They didnt' address a few things: the lack of controlling abilities in lower levels until you gain Dimension Shift (which alot of people hate as an AE hold, but I adore. *shrugs*)
Dimension shift was awesome because without much tweaking you could shift alot of mobs...the downside was, you couldn't keep reapplying it like a hold....AND you relied on misses and odds sometimes to help your group out.
Propel: Greater damage, ok, that's nice....but if anything, that may turn us into another "illusion" controller: easier to solo earlier on....but of course, moves on to....well, nothing spectacular.
My Grav/FF got a dual nerf too: Detention Field and Dimension Shift had their times increased. Blah.
This was a craptastic approach to a fix.
Here's what should be done to rectify some problems:
Power choices in this order to compensate for lower level controlling problems:
- Crush
- Gravity Distortion (these 2 first allow you to pick the hold off the bat and possibly skip Crush like other controllers have an option to skip the single immob)
- Propel (higher damage version here, means better able to solo earlier...possibly add a stun on the end of it since long animation as well....besides you ARE getting hit with a car/forklift.)
- Crushing Field
- Lift (With a slight change: Targetted AE power....allow the lift to repel the mobs HIGH HIGH HIGH up into the air (in an outdoor zone)...or hit the ceiling in an indoor mission)....allow the lifting and dropping animation to last 2 or 3 times as long as it currently does...and give it moderate damage.) This allows us to occupy a group of mobs with lift...I know "Lift" wa s handy as a "catch one guy that got out my crushing field" or whatever when I was lower....but, imagine a whole group...occupied for a few seconds...flying thru the air...dropping to alot of damage
- Dimension Shift: (Return it back to it's normal recharge time. Make people aware that they can increase the MAGNITUDE of the power by slotting Intangibilty Enhancers (so, you can take out bosses in ONE AE hold just like minions if you wish. ) Although I like this power....it seems to need an extra umph...not sure what though.
- Gravity Distortion
- Wormhole: (New AE stun sounds interesting...have to see how it plays out.)
- Singularity
That would bring Gravity up to par Giving the Gravity some choices as to what to do to control a situation....additionally, giving them choices EARLIER in their career......plus seeing some fair damage increasage: Propel having already been increased in damage (but I'd like to see a stun on it too)....and Lift (being a Targetted AE lift, with 3 times the animation...it becomes almost like an ice slick/earthquake...but with alot of damage when they fall back to earth.)
Served Cold: 50 Ice/Storm/Ice
Gravaforce: 26 Grav/FF
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- A new issue, sounds like AE wormhole needs it's disorient upped as well.
Served Cold.
Level 53: Arrows/Devices/Munitions Blaster
....and hopeless Science-Natzi.
I tried out the new Wormhole, don't really like it. It's messy now, you can't just 'hole a DE anchor or Raider FF out to oblivion anymore. Plus I just can't justify a four second disorient as a control power.
New uses as a sort of mass TP foe for pulling and AoE clusters are interesting if you can get the group to slow down to use them. Definite loss of it's primary use is replaced with situational utility and a minor coolness factor. I'll have to try it more and do an in-game response one way or the other.
One interesting thought, we could ask for D-shift to be dropped and a faster Wormhole with a 10 second disorient could replace it. While it is unlikely the devs would chuck D-shift the possibilities are worth talking about.
Single target holds work to diable DE eminators and FF generators (not 100% on the gens). You don't need to wormhole them away.
There is absolutely no pleasing some people huh? Heh heh.
Okay. Here's my take on the new wormhole. It is an AoE disorient, like a lot of people requested. It's still a teleport foe, but now it's AoE for that too. The knockback is still in place. The AoE looked decent for radius. I was playing with it slotted 1 acc/2 rng/3 rchg. I wasn' testing it against even-cons yet though. I think I'll try it 1 acc/2 rng/2 disorient/1rchg (since I've tried siphon speed, and yes it stacks). It's duration might not be spectacular, but that's why you slot things. As a PvP power, it has a lot of potential. Heck, it has a lot of PvE potential too. We just have to learn how to use it. All in all, I call it a sweet change.
Losing the "send beacons away" tactic (in general) is kind of a bummer. But there's still dimension shift, which should negate the beacon's effects right?
Didn't test out propel--still no room in the build for it. But it seems like it might help out with the lower-level content now before the APPs. Didn't experiment with the crushing field/wormhole synergy. Dimension Shift prevents teleportation as well, so wormhole doesn't directly synergize with that, although you could teleport half a large group one direction and dimension shift the other.
In my opinion, the control-gap shouldn't be completely closed. We're still the best single-target (aka big target/small group) mag-builder in the game, right? But wormhole has definitely reduced the gap for the second half of the game. Gravity will still require a lot of finesse to get to 32, which I am happy about. We're still the hardest control set to play.
I only got to play one match on test last night. I was kind of stoked (and stoned) and so when the other team found us I charged forward and went all crazy. I threw my AoE hold and pissed everyone off. A couple of seconds passed (presumably the team was trying to figure out who did it) and then everyone who wasn't held turned on me and attacked--which is how it should be. I died, but the team I was on wiped the floor with them. So we had one death, they had a group wipe.
The map was one of those indoor lab (Crey-style) maps, which didn't leave a lot of options for gurilla tactics. But it was pretty darn neat.
I deleted my gravity controller some time ago out of frustration so i can't really test the new changes, I've just been reading about them.
To me the new Wormhole ruined the power, but saves me some slots since now I don't need to bother at all. The last thing I'd want is a 5 second disorient mass TP. Why does moving a group matter? A small group could be fed to the singularities, I guess, but that just makes gravity more efficient at chewing through small packs because stragglers become less tiresome. Big deal, that isn't where gravity lacked, and Wormhole could already do that one at a time. Plus, now you can't extract force field generators and other annoying enemy drops. To those who say that a hold will deal with those, that isn't true for some types of DE drops, and I liked the ability to totally move the object away and forget about it. To me, the new wormhole is a loss.
Dimension Shift. I'm not sure I understood what changed. I dont have this power (no thanks) so I can't test it. The notes say recharge time increased and end got less (PvE). Does that mean it can be used less often? I don't follow this one.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Why does moving a group matter? Well, if I can clump everyone together I can get better payout for my AoEs, like GDF and FS. Admittedly, the knockback makes this tricky. Will require some practice, maybe even as much strategy as the mind control set requires to use TK effectively. Also, keep in mind that singularities are not the easiest pet to get mobs in aggro range of (they like to sit). This will bring several to you, which will slow down the rate of damage (since they'll spread it around) but give you greater ability to put control on them. And I'm thinking the radius of wormhole is going to make it a good tactical power--I don't think that it will be too big. This will take some serious testing!
Yay! Something to do!
And you guys do know that if you don't like the new wormhole, it is probably our constant call for a secondary AoE mezzer that caused it to get changed. . . . Ready, aim, fire! Ouch! My foot!
well you can AoE a group into your glob of Singularities now or near them to get them to start chain holding or to repel away and take agro off you and the team.
Lots more applications of this power. I'm actually haveing alot of fun using it.
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I found quite the opposite:
The knockback is still in.
The mobs were spread out in an array when you port a group.
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Knockback has been removed from the quick help (at first glance), and tests against -20 Tsoo did not yield any serious knockback. The mobs stayed grouped where I clicked (right on top of where they were standing).
Could this be something to do with all the enemies being teleported to the exact same point? The disoriented mobs could have been shoved out of the way by their comrades as they reappeared, like when someone teleports into you, or a civillian walks into you.
Heh, I'll probably be proved wrong once I can log in again