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...EXACTLY! You are correct. Those who spent the time to figure out how to beat Hamidon legitimately, or who have the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game. Combine that with the equipment advantage, and you've got a very tough opponent, even if you DO have Hamihancers.
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I may be a little bit confused, but, it may seem, perhaps, that, based on that assumption, we're judging skill in the ENTIRE GAME OF "CITY OF HEROES" purely on the basis of whether or not you've beaten Hamidon?
I'm sure that there are those who have raided Hamidon who will say that they know people who haven't raided Hamidon that are just as skilled, maybe even beter than they are.
I don't like to think that defeating Hamidon is the *only* measuring stick of skill in the game.
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I think you missed one specific word that he used, I'll just make it a little more obvious for you
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Yes, the word "often" was used. I never said that it wasn't. I made my point with that in mind.
Yet, the point was somehow misunderstood. That's ok, it happens. I guess, (in your very diplomatic words), "I'll just make it a little more obvious for you."
The point was that successfully raiding Hamidon was the measuring stick that is used to determine whether or not a player was "one of the most skilled".
By saying, "often", we are taking all the "high skilled players" and essentially cutting out anyone who does not beat Hamidon.
For example, let's just say that there are 100 "most skilled players". And say that in out of those 100, fifty have done the raid.
Now, this is not "often". So at this point, we either lie, and say that there are 90 of the 100 who, by nature of defeating Hamidon who are the most skilled, or...
We change the number of the number of "high skilled players" to 60. 50 being Hamidon-beaters, 10 being non. There. Now we are at "often". And we just dicounted 40 users.
However, as I am sure that those who have raided Hamidon will attest, that they know many people who are just as skilled, or even more skilled that they are who have not raided Hamidon.
I'm going to throw out a notion.
What if...what if...the most skilled players ALSO choose not to raid Hamidon, but raise more alts, or help others, wait for Issue Four, knit a sweater, etc.
I'm am sure that those who do not raid Hamidon are just as good as those that do.
Notice, I did not take anything away from the Hamidon raiders. I did not discount their skill.
However, saying that
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"the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game."
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takes away from ALL the other players who are just as good, if not, better.
Again, let me make it "obvious" to you one more time, so that I am not misunderstood.
what if...the most skilled players ALSO choose not to raid Hamidon
Raiding Hamidon repeatedly has nothing to do with skill. It has a lot to do with having gobs of free time that one doesn't mind spending watching a slide show, while every so often (due to lag) pressing a key.
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Why are some people rich and others poor?
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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.
Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?
If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.
And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.
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Why are some people rich and others poor?
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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.
Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?
If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.
And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.
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So, the 'successful' MMORPG rewards non-effort and effort equally, allowing nothing to distinguish the two?
Umm... character development (leveling, timesink, EFFORT) is one of the major, if not the major, dividing line between an MMO and an FPS.
Which do you want to play? An MMO? Or a large, persistant-world FPS?
I would just love a little straight forward honesty here:
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You guys with this "skilled" arguement are killing me here, have you played PvP in other MMOs?
Yes skill DOES have a good deal to do with it BUT so do the "behind the scenes" numbers. Also people making the "skilled" arguement seem to forget that some skilled PvPers are going to ALSO be the ones who have fully-slotted HOs. Hell the skileld PvPers are going to be MORE LIKELY to put in the time it takes to get all those HOs because they are competitive.
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for the challenge?
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so because a few people are unbalanced, by your standards, you want to do away with the only end game content's reward?
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You keep getting hung up on this asinine notion of "Hamidon killer==powergamer==embodiment of evil".
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On a related note: Why oh why are people who invest minimum amounts of time in the game (or just suck at it)worried about competing in the arena against those who play for 8+ hours a day and are good at what they do? Putting a limit on Hami-Os in the arena is somewhat akin to communism. Oh look at the lazy and unfortunate. They should have the same as everyone else... No thanks, I prefer capitalism. You have the same opportunity as everyone else. Take advantage of it... or don't. Your choice.
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Would one of you guys please just be honest and post "I want an unseen advantage over people in the arena so I can have a better win/loss--get my name in lights, big man in my SG"...whatever. If you guys want to REALLY be competitive, dump you HOs, when you win, there can never be an argument...thats competitive. Most of this thread has ignored one glaring point though. Most of this has dealt with just one on one, what happens when and UBER non HO Tank, capped to the teeth on Def/DamRes with your average everyday HOs gets ganged up on by two or three fully slotted HO blasters? With the range, damage and ACC HO's all stuck on snipe, will that tank ever even get into melee range?
What if I had a fully slotted HO tank with defenses maxed out (could you even debauff this guy?) and three or four fully slotted HO blasters. All they need to do is target the tank, completely out of range of any other nonHO blasters, and pick off the non HO team with the Non HO team never even seeing the HO blasters. Don't think that hasn't already been discussed by the HO farmers. And that is just one example.
IF HOs give such an added advantage in PvP, it boils down to this. People with HOs dominate the 45+ ladders of Arena...all across the board, team, one on one, capture the flag...everything. They are going to pat themselves all over their back and let their servers know that they are the best farming has to offer. The non-HO players will not play arena with there being no chance of winning, or at least in the HO class. If you put an HO class in PvP, it will just take a little longer, but only those with HOs are going to have a very limited player base. These are the same people that have been farming Hami all along already, so the same people will be in that class. Eventually, they will get tired of fighting the same guys over and over. Then the complaints will come that no one without HOs will fight them, and they will start sniveling that the DEVs screwed up again and there is not enough fun end game content for average Power Leveling Hami Farmers.
Another question, how many of these HO players are gonna wanna nerf down to SOs after they have played their toon with HOs? What if these players that have the HOs dominate in the HO class, but if they go down to SO class, are they gonna whine about it. Lets say I'm fully slotted with my HOs, and I have beaten every single toon I have fought in Arena, nerf down to SOs and get beat 50% of the time, maybe even more because i have become used to fighting with my HOs, and my timing is off without their HOs. Am I going to stay with the SOs or go back to HOs. Out of that group of HO people, I am sure that some with be able to go back and forth with ease, but most of them are going to start sniveling that they dont LOOK as uber as they used to with HOs, and all the SO people are wussies for not wanting to fight them. Also, if anyone feels strongly about this issue, count the number of posts that are against HOs against the number of the ones for HOs...that should be another indication there. Good luck with the Arena, I hope this eventually works out for the majority of the players out there, I'll pass until I'm sure that we are on an even playing field, your SOs against my SOs.
One of the major selling points for me as an MMO veteran of City of Heroes was that there were no true items. This meant skills I actually care about mattered more than skills I didn't care about. Let's break these down.
Skills I like to develop and find as a fun activity in games:
Engineering (Character builds & design)
Reflexes (FPS style movement and fighting)
Ingenuity (Exploitation of game mechanics)
Skills I don't care about:
"Schmoozing" (Getting into all the Hami raids/plied with gifts because you have an attractive female character, or are the SO of a raid organizer. Or maybe you are friends with everyone and have no opinions that can't be easily discarded to match whoever you're with at the time as long as you get something out of them.)
"Having no life" (Being able to spend infinite time on an MMO to get the random drops you need because you are a kid or a loser, no job, no family, other people put food on your table and a roof over your head).
"Disposable income" You buy power on eBay.
I don't have a problem with a straight time spent = power gained formula on an MMO on a linear scale. CoH is very nice in that for levels 1-49 everyone can solo more or less equally (At the rate of their AT, natch)
For comparison time spent generally equals skill gained in any FPS as well. Look ma no XP system! ("Life" imitates RPG art anyone?).
It is when suddenly this ridiculous top tier appears on an MMO that normal people with lives just can't even break into without spending hundreds and hundreds of hours on the game or playing "friends with everyone" to schmooze items that turns me off. I like to be able to compete without having to sell my soul for it. This is why HOs and Hami raids, (albeit interesting and cool as something that gets lots of heroes fighting together in a "hard" battle), basically suck.
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Yes, the word "often" was used. I never said that it wasn't. I made my point with that in mind...
For example, let's just say that there are 100 "most skilled players". And say that in out of those 100, fifty have done the raid...
...(numbers, legitimate points)...
However, saying that
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"the prowess to lead or organize a raid are often the most skilled players in the game."
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takes away from ALL the other players who are just as good, if not, better.
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I don't think that was the point that he was making, the point that he was making is this; (IMO, don't fault them if I'm wrong)
Fighting against the people who have the organizational skills and in-game experience (not to mention time and bad-[censored] computers) to organize and successfully execute a Hamidon raid would be a difficult task even if they did not have HO's.
Notice that I said nothing about other players being difficult to beat. You seem to have taken that post and twisted it around to be an insult against anyone it was not complimenting... THAT was the point of my previous post.
I know a lot of people who have been playing this game for quite some time and have yet to get a lvl 50 character, yet are more skilled than many lvl 50's that I've seen. They even know their characters play style better at lvl 35 than many lvl 50's know their characters.
BUT
That has nothing to do with the fact that some of the people who have been involved in the Hamidon raids are insanely good at this game and have the knowledge of thier specific build that will allow them to trash just about any takers that approach them in the arena... even if they couldn't use thier HO's.
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Why are some people rich and others poor?
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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.
Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?
If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.
And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.
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So, the 'successful' MMORPG rewards non-effort and effort equally, allowing nothing to distinguish the two?
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This is in fact 100% correct. the most succesful MMORPGs always mitigate the work-for-it impact. Usually by dividing the game into multiple "divisions," warriors, socialites, crafters, leaders. Some take great amount of work some do not.
I do point out that all the strongest North American MMO are selling on brand name with the exception of CoH. Even CoH is selling on a brand of sorts... superheros.
Many of the games that pushed the work-for-it mentality spiked in there membership at first and have been steadly dwindling ever since.
The MMO that wants to be truely successful will need to break with the way things were done, since that obviously does not work well for long term retention, and innovate.
CoH is the smallest of the big boy MMOs (over 120k subcribers) if they want to stay that way they need to find their nitch. They gambled by their "nitch" a very light work-for-it attitude type game. If they decide to change they are making a very dangerous gamble. It is the Developers decision however I do point out that AC, AO, Eve and all the other true equals of CoH are failing for the exact same work-for-it attitude.
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Umm... character development (leveling, timesink, EFFORT) is one of the major, if not the major, dividing line between an MMO and an FPS.
Which do you want to play? An MMO? Or a large, persistant-world FPS?
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Developing your character is the major difference not leveling, timesinks, or effort. While effort is of course a positve quality, to argue that anything in CoH remotely resembles the amount of effort required by most other MMOs is simply idiotic. This has obviously worked very much in favor of Cryptic in the Past. If they now decide that the timesink methodology supported by other MMOs is the way the game need to go i personally think they will be making a grave error.
The hamidon and it reward structure is not like anything that has existed in CoH previously. The hamidon is a "choke point" in a game perviously without any "choke points." It redefines the entire way the game is played and I doubt many people who play CoH will like the defination.
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That has nothing to do with the fact that some of the people who have been involved in the Hamidon raids are insanely good at this game and have the knowledge of thier specific build that will allow them to trash just about any takers that approach them in the arena... even if they couldn't use thier HO's.
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No question there, and I agree with you. In fact, I think you agreed with me too. I've never tried to negate the prowess of raid orgainizers/Hamidon beaters. Nor have you tried to negate the skills of those who haven't.
The only point is that the statement which is at the center of this current discussion does, unfortunately, negate the effects of those that haven't. (blah blah...see above for examples)
By your last reponse, I can tell you and I both have the same stance about the entire situtation overall. (regarding "skill". HO's in the arena is something that I swore I'm going to lay off) And while I do not find fault in much of what you said, I don't think it is fair for you to say that I am "twisting" anything around.
I may have drawn conclusions, misinterpreted, correctly assumed, etc, but I really do not think that my intention was to corrput the poster's words.
I was merely seeking validation for all the countless hours that non-Hamidon defeaters should have, by placing those that do fit in the same category as well.
Hamidon and the enhancements have been in the game since release. This has been no attempt by the devs to change the game or how things work.
an organized raid takes less than 2 hours, you can spend more time on two missions, doing a task force or a trial.
the fact that its a public encounter means others can help the very people you will typically compete against.
HOs offer a way for 50s to advance their character with others since it requires cooperation.
those that dislike HOs and the Hamidon raid really don't know that much about it. Not digging for flames or trolling but its a fact that seems very evident by most that are posting.
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This is in fact 100% correct. the most succesful MMORPGs always mitigate the work-for-it impact. Usually by dividing the game into multiple "divisions," warriors, socialites, crafters, leaders. Some take great amount of work some do not.
I do point out that all the strongest North American MMO are selling on brand name with the exception of CoH. Even CoH is selling on a brand of sorts... superheros.
Many of the games that pushed the work-for-it mentality spiked in there membership at first and have been steadly dwindling ever since.
The MMO that wants to be truely successful will need to break with the way things were done, since that obviously does not work well for long term retention, and innovate.
CoH is the smallest of the big boy MMOs (over 120k subcribers) if they want to stay that way they need to find their nitch. They gambled by their "nitch" a very light work-for-it attitude type game. If they decide to change they are making a very dangerous gamble. It is the Developers decision however I do point out that AC, AO, Eve and all the other true equals of CoH are failing for the exact same work-for-it attitude.
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This is a really good point and you can see evidence of this clearly if you have played EQ1, 2 and CoH like I have. EQ1 was all about elitism and time sinks, EQ2 is adding more and more solo content near weekly because that is what players demand. Just recently all the timers limiting reattempt tries to instanced zones were taken off most if not all instanced zones there...showing that they are willing to remove grind in favor of fun. EQ2 is of course a very item centric game "phat l3wt" and raid heavy still, but I kept my CoH accounts because that was where I came to get away from all that...not to mention pvp 
Like if I really want to raid something for a challenge, I'll go do it in EQ2 where there are raids galore at many levels with engaging content and widely varying tactics around the raid also, not in CoH where there is one raid at level 50.
(Of course I will still pop ghosts, paladins, octopi and other rare monsters when I see em 
, but they don't qualify as raids)
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Developing your character is the major difference not leveling, timesinks, or effort.
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Okay, how do I develop my character without spending time and effort? What would be the logical extension of this? Log in, go visit the trainer, train up to whatever level I want to be, fill out my powers and slots with whatever enhancements I want from a free, pull-down menu, and get to it? Development? I maintain that development is, and must be, a result of some effort, some input. CoH's shelf life would be rather less if we all started at whatever level we pleased, with any powers we want. I, sir, like some feeling of earned accomplishment.
I will agree that Hamidon IS a chokepoint, and I would like to see other ways to get the same (or equivalent) reward. Make it the payoff for a 6 hour TF that makes the old, bad respec look trivial. Have them for sale for 100+ Influence. Award one for every 100 Devouring Earth Monsters your team kills. Whatever. I miss my SG raids, of planning, preparation, and care, and enjoy not at all the unavoidable 100+ man slow-click brute-force slideshow that is the ONLY way to go near Hamdion, now.
What we need is more ways (not easier, only different) to reap the reward, not to remove the results of effort already invested.
Then again, we could just all duke it out with brawl and lvl 1 toons. None of that nasty effort and work stuff.
-knockknockknock-
"Are you playing Doom Yet?"
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those that dislike HOs and the Hamidon raid really don't know that much about it. Not digging for flames or trolling but its a fact that seems very evident by most that are posting.
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Actually, if you read very closely, the majority of the voices are not complaining about HO's or raids per se. They are concerns about how the HO's affect the 45+ PvP game.
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Hamidon and the enhancements have been in the game since release. This has been no attempt by the devs to change the game or how things work.
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Hmm...why is there a concern now?
Because of PvP.
So, it's not an argument about HO's and raiding. It's about how HO's affect PvP.
Well, the real problem isnt HOs. Some players wont/cant put in the effort or the time (for whatever reason) into the game but still want PvP to be fair against those that do. Im sorry but fair doesnt exist. It doesnt exist in real life and it doesnt exist in this game.
To be fair youd have to only PvP against someone with the exact same build, same connection speed, same game knowledge, same experiences, same computer speed, etc. Not going to happen is it? Just looking at builds alone Id like you to find 2 EXACTLY the same, youd be hard pressed and I doubt you could. Even min/max builds have player preference differences.
From reading all these threads it seems to me that the players that dont have HOs have expressed their self perceived inadequacy into some type of lack of fun versus those players that do. Instead of doing something in-game about this they have decided to reach out to the devs and cry 'nerf' for a false notion of fairness. They earned it, its not fair that I wont/cant, take it way from them!
So being fair isnt about HOs, its about making other players, that can put the time and effort into their build, as miserable as them. No thanks.
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Just to prevent people from quoting me inaccurately...
Hamidon Enhancements boost either TWO aspects of a power by 50% or THREE aspects of a power by 30%.
If you battle in the Arena another hero in a weight class below you (weight classes are five level bands), you will be auto-exemplared to that weight class.
This also means that the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements. That means that your Hamidon Enhancement is considered at an S.O. or lower level, rather than +50%. You'll still have the advantage because two or three aspects are being boosted, but you won't have the overwhelming % advantage.
This, however, does not occur when fighting within your "weight" class. If you're in your weight class, Hamidon Enhancements are killer.
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States,
What about people who have nothing BUT Hami-O's in their slots. I know of one charcter personally that has done the raid so many times, thats now all they have. How does this affect the guy who actually works all day to pay for your game vs. the guy who does 165 raids day in and day out just to get the power, PvP does not seem so fun anymore when faced with this possibility.
[ QUOTE ]
[snip]
Im sorry but fair doesnt exist. It doesnt exist in real life and it doesnt exist in this game.
To be fair youd have to only PvP against someone with the exact same build, same connection speed, same game knowledge, same experiences, same computer speed, etc. Not going to happen is it? Just looking at builds alone Id like you to find 2 EXACTLY the same, youd be hard pressed and I doubt you could. Even min/max builds have player preference differences.
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Just because there are differences among ATs and builds doesn't mean that putting in a mechanism to increase the effectiveness of characters by 100% or 200% is a good idea. No given fight will be entirely balanced or "fair", but they will be mostly close with known counters.
The differences between a largely HO'd character and a non-HO'd character will have no counter.
[ QUOTE ]
From reading all these threads it seems to me that the players that dont have HOs have expressed their self perceived inadequacy into some type of lack of fun versus those players that do. Instead of doing something in-game about this they have decided to reach out to the devs and cry 'nerf' for a false notion of fairness. They earned it, its not fair that I wont/cant, take it way from them!
So being fair isnt about HOs, its about making other players, that can put the time and effort into their build, as miserable as them. No thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
The difference between HO'd and non-HO'd characters is that the HO'd characters chose to spend large amounts of time watching a slide show, occasionally pressing a key, in hopes of gaining an enhancement that would allow them to "gank" the "suckers" who choose not to spend their time in such a meaningless, boring manner. Now HO'd characters are angry about the suggestion that an option be created to allow heros to fight on an even playing field.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the real problem isnt HOs. Some players wont/cant put in the effort or the time (for whatever reason) into the game but still want PvP to be fair against those that do. Im sorry but fair doesnt exist. It doesnt exist in real life and it doesnt exist in this game.
To be fair youd have to only PvP against someone with the exact same build, same connection speed, same game knowledge, same experiences, same computer speed, etc. Not going to happen is it? Just looking at builds alone Id like you to find 2 EXACTLY the same, youd be hard pressed and I doubt you could. Even min/max builds have player preference differences.
From reading all these threads it seems to me that the players that dont have HOs have expressed their self perceived inadequacy into some type of lack of fun versus those players that do. Instead of doing something in-game about this they have decided to reach out to the devs and cry 'nerf' for a false notion of fairness. They earned it, its not fair that I wont/cant, take it way from them!
So being fair isnt about HOs, its about making other players, that can put the time and effort into their build, as miserable as them. No thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Riiiight. There's never artificial constraints placed on players in sporting/game events to make for a more interesting competition. Or even, god forbid, a more "fair" one.
Tell you what, how about we start letting Olympic athletes use steroids as much as they want? Why not let football players carry tasers onto the field? It's not hurting anyone, it's just improving their ability to play the game, and hey, they can afford them, right? Oh, I've got it! Let's remove all of the constraints on stock car building! Use the lightest materials you want, drop a nitrous tank in your car, use whatever tools you can afford! Hey, why don't we let the men compete in women's wrestling in the Olympics? It's not their fault they've naturally got the better upper body strength (on average). Preventing them from playing for fairness sake is just... communist!
There is a certain sense of fairness in competitons, regardless of whether you like it or not. Without constraints put in place to prevent people from dominating a contest by using means that others are unwilling or unable to do, you end up with a contest that people stop wanting to compete in and that they stop wanting to watch.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to prevent people from quoting me inaccurately...
Hamidon Enhancements boost either TWO aspects of a power by 50% or THREE aspects of a power by 30%.
If you battle in the Arena another hero in a weight class below you (weight classes are five level bands), you will be auto-exemplared to that weight class.
This also means that the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements. That means that your Hamidon Enhancement is considered at an S.O. or lower level, rather than +50%. You'll still have the advantage because two or three aspects are being boosted, but you won't have the overwhelming % advantage.
This, however, does not occur when fighting within your "weight" class. If you're in your weight class, Hamidon Enhancements are killer.
[/ QUOTE ]
States,
What about people who have nothing BUT Hami-O's in their slots. I know of one charcter personally that has done the raid so many times, thats now all they have. How does this affect the guy who actually works all day to pay for your game vs. the guy who does 165 raids day in and day out just to get the power, PvP does not seem so fun anymore when faced with this possibility.
[/ QUOTE ]
assuming he works 40 hours a week, that guy who works all day to pay for the game must only be making 37.5 cents an hour. :P
Sorry i'm not statesman, and really i'm just picking on you for a clumsy sentance. just joshin'
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The difference between HO'd and non-HO'd characters is that the HO'd characters chose to spend large amounts of time watching a slide show, occasionally pressing a key, in hopes of gaining an enhancement that would allow them to "gank" the "suckers" who choose not to spend their time in such a meaningless, boring manner.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many love the unique challange of raiding with large groups. So, if you choose not to particpate why force others to play as you do? Thats not 'fair' then is it?
[ QUOTE ]
Tell you what, how about we start letting Olympic athletes use steroids as much as they want? Why not let football players carry tasers onto the field? It's not hurting anyone, it's just improving their ability to play the game, and hey, they can afford them, right? Oh, I've got it! Let's remove all of the constraints on stock car building! Use the lightest materials you want, drop a nitrous tank in your car, use whatever tools you can afford! Hey, why don't we let the men compete in women's wrestling in the Olympics? It's not their fault they've naturally got the better upper body strength (on average). Preventing them from playing for fairness sake is just... communist!
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice drama but HO's are apart of this game, have been in the game for a long time and have even been given a special rule set already just for PvP. But thats not enough is it?
People try to advance their Hero but you dont like it so instead of trying to compete, you cry 'nerf' in the name of 'fairness'.
There's a problem with the game. This is something most people will agree on. The problem is that there is a way for people with a larger amount of time, time to play at the RIGHT time of day, a big SG, and/or a better computer (to make the 'slideshow' bearable) can get a special type of enhancement. There are really only two ways to fix this, and everyone seems to be concentrating on the first.
1. Make the special enhancement less special in some way. (make it so only one can be used per power... make it so that they can't be used in PvP/can't be used in specific PvP matches... make them less effective... etc.)
2. Give people more ways of getting them (make them available via a TF... make them buyable *cough*bad idea*cough*... make a trial or mission drop them... etc.)
Basically the first one makes them work different, and the second one makes them more available to people who only have time to play at night or on their days off (I used to work during the weekend and go to school at night, I could only play at night on saturday and sunday and in the morning on Wednesday and Thursday, do you have any idea how much that sucks trying to get into an SG, not to mention a TF or raid?). These people are no less devoted to the game, they simply have 'time sinks' IRL. There have been a few ideas that would work but won't be implimented for various reasons, but I sincerely hope that before I get to lvl 50 there is some kind of fix for this.
I personally think that making the HO's buyable is a bad idea... this is because *WAY* too many people that have them now will complain until they are blue in the face. BUT... If there were something similar to an HO, perhaps an enhancer that worked on two aspects but only enhanced them by SO standards, or something that worked better than an SO on one aspect... that would be reasonable.
Ok... I'll shut up now.
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Many love the unique challange of raiding with large groups. So, if you choose not to particpate why force others to play as you do? Thats not 'fair' then is it?
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I am not trying to force them to play in any way. I am trying to leave an option that would allow me to test my skills against theirs, without the fact that they raided Hamidon umpteen million times making a fair contest impossible.
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They earned it, its not fair that I wont/cant, take it way from them!
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Wrong. It's not 'take it away from them', it's 'give them the option of leaving it at the arena door'.
You're also wrong about fairness not existing in this game. Fairness is IMPOSED on you in the Arena, by the auto-exemping method. If, as a level 50, you are up against a level 20, then you can't use those 30 additional levels that you worked so hard to get. They are, temporarily, taken away from you. Going to whine about that?
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assuming he works 40 hours a week, that guy who works all day to pay for the game must only be making 37.5 cents an hour. :P
Sorry i'm not statesman, and really i'm just picking on you for a clumsy sentance. just joshin'
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Actually it's 32 cents an hour... that's including 40 bucks for internet. I'll even show my math. Jerk even gets $1.32 spending money.
Assuming there are 22 work days in a month (23 this month)
($15+$40)/(22*8)
$55/176
$0.3125
Dayamn... I have too much time on my hands today.
I find it pretty entertaining that for every Hami farmer in here fighting for their sacred MMO given right to pwn with phat lewt it seems like their argument is cut down from like three different new forum posters every time 
.
Someone with time on their hands should count up the number of pro-Skill vs. pro-HO posts by unique players if they actually want to add something to the thread beyond spam. Would be interesting to see who the boards favor at least...
wow, thatwas great speech... I completly agree. Though if we do end up "having a problem", aside for not playing arena, what's our solution? Limit the number of HOs per person maybe?