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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent.
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I understand this. What I have evidently failed to get across is that skill is the only one of these advantages that cannot be set aside. In the Arena, you can willingly give up any advantage whatsoever in order to compete with a foe on their level, EXCEPT a HO. You can set aside your higher level, your travel powers, your temporary powers - but not your HOs.
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I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
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Absolutely. And when I have a pile of HOs of my own, I want to be able to disable them temporarily in order to face opponents with only my skills to help me. I can give up any other advantage I have - it seems odd not to let me give up my enhancements.
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It seems, what you're arguing for is an extra option. So long as it is an option, and you can choose whether to allow them or not I guess I can agree to that. More options are always better.
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Everyone keeps talking about Hamidons and using skill in the same breath.
But in all honesty the more Hamidons you have the less skill you need. Its actually a buffer for LACK of skill.
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Th notion that Hami-o's are some kind of krutch is ridiculous. They are another tool that is available to everyone. It may be a detriment to some through overconfidence. Pld, and inexperienced characters who think having them will even them out with experienced tactical players are sorely mistaken.
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and inexperienced characters who think having them will even them out with experienced tactical players are sorely mistaken.
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The numbers on the otherhand say otherwise.
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It seems, what you're arguing for is an extra option. So long as it is an option, and you can choose whether to allow them or not I guess I can agree to that. More options are always better.
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Another option is all I've ever argued for. 
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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.
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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.
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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.
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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?
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Nice way to sidestep the last question she put to you. I'll ask it again, since you seem to have missed it: How would I know whether an opponent has HOs or not? I can't see their enhancement screen. I could ask them, but they could lie. Sure, after fighting them once and never seeing their damage drop below 400%, I might have some indication. But what if they use their HOs more subtly? For example, a tanker or scrapper can get a good bit of extra juice out of their character by 4 slotting hasten and several of their defensive powers, then reapplying those slots to other powers.Done right, you could six slot 1-2 additional attack powers with the other player being none the wiser.
Regardless of whether you want HOs in the arena unaltered or you want a switch to turn them on and off (turning them into SOs) or you want to have them always turned off, can you honestly deny a need for full, or at least useful partial disclosure? I don't need to know what you've got slotted where, but I should be able to glance at your info screen and see "X HOs/Y SOs/Z DOs/W Trainings" before I choose to fight you or not. It gives me both knowledge of your true weight class and some insight into your skill level.
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Sry dude I didn't "avoid" the question, I just didn't see how it is relevant.
If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not. It's a risk. Personaly if I lost I would want another shot at you, but others can choose to never fight you again. It's up to them. Surprise is just as much of an advantage as enhancements. If anything I would argue that we shouldn't be allowed to see what powers our opponents have so that we are forced to compete blindly, be forced to adapt to new situaitions and can learn from our experiences.
I think there is a missconception here. When I go to get slotted with hamio's It's not to be better than others so that I can breeze through them. I get them to make my toon as good as he can possibly be, to strive for the perfect weapon. Then I can use my tactics to the best of my ability, and hopefuly the environment as well. This way I know I'm giving it my all agaisnt everyone else. I want everyone to try there best and use every edge they can get. But I want them to have to earn those advantages the same way I did, otherwise it was wasted effort on my part.
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If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not.
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This is an Arena we're talking about, not a street brawl. These fights are *arranged*.
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It's a risk.
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So are you saying that in order to find out who has Hami-Os, so that we can choose not to fight them, we'll have to fight them first?
That seems a little bit circular to me.
The real 'concern' with Hamis (if there is one) is not the idiots with 20, but the 'best of the best' players with 60.
Those people may be slightly dangerous.
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If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not.
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This is an Arena we're talking about, not a street brawl. These fights are *arranged*.
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It's a risk.
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So are you saying that in order to find out who has Hami-Os, so that we can choose not to fight them, we'll have to fight them first?
That seems a little bit circular to me.
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Yeah I guess I'm stuck there huh. It's difficult for me to argue because I would never turn down a chalenge so I don't know what all the criteria are to turning one down, the only way I could see someone turning down a fight would be if they had already fought them and felt they hadn't learned enough to beat them yet.
But I see your point, I would prefer no knoledge of your opponent until you learn it for yourself, but then you're right, how could people who want to be exempt from fighting the Hami-O ridden, know for sure?
Maybe more options?
like being able to choose to have "blind" fights for people who want the challenge, and then you can choose some kind of data screen of your opponent that shows his kills, slotting, powers etc. if you dont both choose the "blind" option?
Just an idea
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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.
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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.
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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.
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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?
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Nice way to sidestep the last question she put to you. I'll ask it again, since you seem to have missed it: How would I know whether an opponent has HOs or not? I can't see their enhancement screen. I could ask them, but they could lie. Sure, after fighting them once and never seeing their damage drop below 400%, I might have some indication. But what if they use their HOs more subtly? For example, a tanker or scrapper can get a good bit of extra juice out of their character by 4 slotting hasten and several of their defensive powers, then reapplying those slots to other powers.Done right, you could six slot 1-2 additional attack powers with the other player being none the wiser.
Regardless of whether you want HOs in the arena unaltered or you want a switch to turn them on and off (turning them into SOs) or you want to have them always turned off, can you honestly deny a need for full, or at least useful partial disclosure? I don't need to know what you've got slotted where, but I should be able to glance at your info screen and see "X HOs/Y SOs/Z DOs/W Trainings" before I choose to fight you or not. It gives me both knowledge of your true weight class and some insight into your skill level.
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Sry dude I didn't "avoid" the question, I just didn't see how it is relevant.
If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not. It's a risk. Personaly if I lost I would want another shot at you, but others can choose to never fight you again. It's up to them. Surprise is just as much of an advantage as enhancements. If anything I would argue that we shouldn't be allowed to see what powers our opponents have so that we are forced to compete blindly, be forced to adapt to new situaitions and can learn from our experiences.
I think there is a missconception here. When I go to get slotted with hamio's It's not to be better than others so that I can breeze through them. I get them to make my toon as good as he can possibly be, to strive for the perfect weapon. Then I can use my tactics to the best of my ability, and hopefuly the environment as well. This way I know I'm giving it my all agaisnt everyone else. I want everyone to try there best and use every edge they can get. But I want them to have to earn those advantages the same way I did, otherwise it was wasted effort on my part.
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So you would be okay with someone coming into a sporting competition and entering themselves in the amateur events even tho he had competed professionally before? Because, largely, that's what having opponents compete without either the ability to turn off HOs (which you seem in favor of) or the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has (not their slot placement, just the number) would turn into.
I have a level 50 and several other lowbies. I've watched a Hami raid, briefly, and decided that I wanted to do something more fun (to me) with my limited time in the game. I've got full-time work and school, so spending two hours a night in a slideshow just doesn't do it for me. I don't, therefore, have HOs. That's fine. Until the devs either allow them to be sold by vendors or dropped from high end task forces, I probably won't ever have more than 1 or 2 in any of my characters. I would easily fall into the "amateur" class in the example above. You, having spent hundreds of hours developing the Hamidon strategy and raiding night after night, would fall into the "pro" class. If you have been sincere about your wish to compete against challenging opponents, you'd never fight me: I might have the skills to take you on, but I don't have the enhancements. As I'm sure you're aware, when two equally skilled opponents come up against each other, the better conditioned one almost always wins. That's fine, too. But there are folks out there, especially folks that have enough free time to both raid Hami and gank amateurs, that would be perfectly happy to take their fully slotted HO characters and blatantly lie when asked the question, "Are you HO specced? At all?"
When the arenas come, I don't see myself having any more time to spend on PvP than I do on PvE. In fact, I'll probably have less, since I'll be splitting my time between both aspects of the game. And without a way to determine whether a match is going to be a waste of my time before I start playing, that's even more of it down the drain. THAT's why I want to know how many HOs an opponent has.
You may take this whole arena competition as some Bushido warrior thing, but it's just a game to me. I want to play a game, and I want it to be as completely grief-free as possible. I don't know what's necessary to make that happen. there have been several suggestions, including a way to turn off/tone down HOs as an option and the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has. I think perhaps the best way to do it might be to make the disclosure voluntary. If a player doesn't want to show how many they've got, as you don't, they can turn it off for themselves. That would act as a signifier to many players: either you take the game very seriously, in which case you're probably not worth fighting on the skill side alone, except for other extremely serious players, or you're a griefer and not worth fighting for the obvious reasons.
You said yourself, more options are always good. This would be a good option for the vast bulk of players in a game that was advertised as a game for casual players, yet which has phat lewt obtainable only through raids at the high end.
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Yeah I guess I'm stuck there huh. It's difficult for me to argue because I would never turn down a chalenge so I don't know what all the criteria are to turning one down, the only way I could see someone turning down a fight would be if they had already fought them and felt they hadn't learned enough to beat them yet.
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Its easy. Recognize the fine line between challenge and suicide.
A level one blaster taking on a Kronos Titan is suicide.
Someone with no Hamidon Enhancements taking on someone fully slotted with them is suicide.
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The true spirit of competition also demands that fights are held between people of similar 'weight'. That's why we have weight classes instead of skill classes.
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Lastly. No one is making you compete against me or anyone else with Hami-os. So if you dont want to have the chalenge, don't fight against them.
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That is indeed an equally viable solution, but it does mean introducing some way of TELLING that a prospective opponent has Hami-Os. As you are no doubt aware, you can't currently do that.
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By pulling out small quotes of my statement you missed what I was saying overall. The Aikido example is perfect because in Akido we often have to fight against people whao are better armed, more skilled or just more than one opponent. These are all things that test you and your abilities. Is it "fair"? No. But nothing in life is. I would rather true variety in strength and skill to test myself against, rather than some homoginized version.
I also hope you can have 2, 3, + vs 1 in the arena. Can you imagine the bragging rights of someone who manages to beat 3 opponents at once?
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Nice way to sidestep the last question she put to you. I'll ask it again, since you seem to have missed it: How would I know whether an opponent has HOs or not? I can't see their enhancement screen. I could ask them, but they could lie. Sure, after fighting them once and never seeing their damage drop below 400%, I might have some indication. But what if they use their HOs more subtly? For example, a tanker or scrapper can get a good bit of extra juice out of their character by 4 slotting hasten and several of their defensive powers, then reapplying those slots to other powers.Done right, you could six slot 1-2 additional attack powers with the other player being none the wiser.
Regardless of whether you want HOs in the arena unaltered or you want a switch to turn them on and off (turning them into SOs) or you want to have them always turned off, can you honestly deny a need for full, or at least useful partial disclosure? I don't need to know what you've got slotted where, but I should be able to glance at your info screen and see "X HOs/Y SOs/Z DOs/W Trainings" before I choose to fight you or not. It gives me both knowledge of your true weight class and some insight into your skill level.
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Sry dude I didn't "avoid" the question, I just didn't see how it is relevant.
If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not. It's a risk. Personaly if I lost I would want another shot at you, but others can choose to never fight you again. It's up to them. Surprise is just as much of an advantage as enhancements. If anything I would argue that we shouldn't be allowed to see what powers our opponents have so that we are forced to compete blindly, be forced to adapt to new situaitions and can learn from our experiences.
I think there is a missconception here. When I go to get slotted with hamio's It's not to be better than others so that I can breeze through them. I get them to make my toon as good as he can possibly be, to strive for the perfect weapon. Then I can use my tactics to the best of my ability, and hopefuly the environment as well. This way I know I'm giving it my all agaisnt everyone else. I want everyone to try there best and use every edge they can get. But I want them to have to earn those advantages the same way I did, otherwise it was wasted effort on my part.
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So you would be okay with someone coming into a sporting competition and entering themselves in the amateur events even tho he had competed professionally before? Because, largely, that's what having opponents compete without either the ability to turn off HOs (which you seem in favor of) or the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has (not their slot placement, just the number) would turn into.
I have a level 50 and several other lowbies. I've watched a Hami raid, briefly, and decided that I wanted to do something more fun (to me) with my limited time in the game. I've got full-time work and school, so spending two hours a night in a slideshow just doesn't do it for me. I don't, therefore, have HOs. That's fine. Until the devs either allow them to be sold by vendors or dropped from high end task forces, I probably won't ever have more than 1 or 2 in any of my characters. I would easily fall into the "amateur" class in the example above. You, having spent hundreds of hours developing the Hamidon strategy and raiding night after night, would fall into the "pro" class. If you have been sincere about your wish to compete against challenging opponents, you'd never fight me: I might have the skills to take you on, but I don't have the enhancements. As I'm sure you're aware, when two equally skilled opponents come up against each other, the better conditioned one almost always wins. That's fine, too. But there are folks out there, especially folks that have enough free time to both raid Hami and gank amateurs, that would be perfectly happy to take their fully slotted HO characters and blatantly lie when asked the question, "Are you HO specced? At all?"
When the arenas come, I don't see myself having any more time to spend on PvP than I do on PvE. In fact, I'll probably have less, since I'll be splitting my time between both aspects of the game. And without a way to determine whether a match is going to be a waste of my time before I start playing, that's even more of it down the drain. THAT's why I want to know how many HOs an opponent has.
You may take this whole arena competition as some Bushido warrior thing, but it's just a game to me. I want to play a game, and I want it to be as completely grief-free as possible. I don't know what's necessary to make that happen. there have been several suggestions, including a way to turn off/tone down HOs as an option and the ability to see the number of HOs a given player has. I think perhaps the best way to do it might be to make the disclosure voluntary. If a player doesn't want to show how many they've got, as you don't, they can turn it off for themselves. That would act as a signifier to many players: either you take the game very seriously, in which case you're probably not worth fighting on the skill side alone, except for other extremely serious players, or you're a griefer and not worth fighting for the obvious reasons.
You said yourself, more options are always good. This would be a good option for the vast bulk of players in a game that was advertised as a game for casual players, yet which has phat lewt obtainable only through raids at the high end.
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I'm not going to dissagree with anything you wrote (though in answer to your question, no I dont see anything wrong with profesionals playing amateur sports, but you will notice that very few do because of the lack of challenge) But I will make this comment: Do you realy think you as a self proclaimed amateur, who has spent less than 1/4 of the amount of time I've spent playing, are on equal footing? wouldn't someone who practices something everyday, out match someone who doesn't?
I have an unenhanced toon on test named Markus V8.3 and I would love to test your "equal footing" theory.
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If I go to fight you I have no way of knowing what martial arts you know or whether you have a hiden weapon or not.
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This is an Arena we're talking about, not a street brawl. These fights are *arranged*.
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It's a risk.
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So are you saying that in order to find out who has Hami-Os, so that we can choose not to fight them, we'll have to fight them first?
That seems a little bit circular to me.
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Yeah I guess I'm stuck there huh. It's difficult for me to argue because I would never turn down a chalenge so I don't know what all the criteria are to turning one down, the only way I could see someone turning down a fight would be if they had already fought them and felt they hadn't learned enough to beat them yet.
But I see your point, I would prefer no knoledge of your opponent until you learn it for yourself, but then you're right, how could people who want to be exempt from fighting the Hami-O ridden, know for sure?
Maybe more options?
like being able to choose to have "blind" fights for people who want the challenge, and then you can choose some kind of data screen of your opponent that shows his kills, slotting, powers etc. if you dont both choose the "blind" option?
Just an idea
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I was just talking to my brother about this (he is a AAA rated competitive fencer) And he changed my mind, If your going to go into competitions, you do have to take a risk. If you want to find out if your good enough to take someone, you have to try it. You may lose and it may be because he has more accolades or a better powerset or class or maybe because he has Hamio's, but if you dont want to risk it dont fight. If you do then it shouldn't matter what he's equipped with. Your putting your best against his. If he's worked harder on his toon than you he'll have an edge. You will have to try that much harder. Ayone can beat anyone else if you use the right tactics. It may be harder in some cases but it's still possible.
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Ayone can beat anyone else if you use the right tactics. It may be harder in some cases but it's still possible.
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Actually, no you can't. This glass is half full nonsense always falls flat in the face of hard reality.
I bring up again an instance when I came across a remnant in steel canyon of somone's ambush, a tree of life which was around 15 or so levels above me. NO MATTER WHAT I DID, when I eventually managed to land a blow it healed it in a second.
This is what I fear from Hamidon equipped players.
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Ayone can beat anyone else if you use the right tactics. It may be harder in some cases but it's still possible.
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Actually, no you can't. This glass is half full nonsense always falls flat in the face of hard reality.
I bring up again an instance when I came across a remnant in steel canyon of somone's ambush, a tree of life which was around 15 or so levels above me. NO MATTER WHAT I DID, when I eventually managed to land a blow it healed it in a second.
This is what I fear from Hamidon equipped players.
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But now having learned from your "experiences" you can beat them right?
That is neither here nor there.
Yes now that I'm leveled up I can beat them.
BUT that doesnt change the fact that not eveyone can beat everyone with good tactics. Sometimes the numbers just arent there.
Going into the arena without Hamidon enhancements is bringing a knife (or plastic spork) to a gun fight.
The everyone can beat everyone is great in theory, not in practice.
you can't really hit anything 6+ levels higher than you and do anything to it. They made that change back in the day... the infamous "purple patch"
had the tree of life been forced to exemplar down to your level for the combat, you would have made quick work of it.
And if it exemplared down to my level and was decked out in Hamidon Enhancements I still wouldnt have been able to do anything to it.
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And if it exemplared down to my level and was decked out in Hamidon Enhancements I still wouldnt have been able to do anything to it.
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Uhm do you even have a Hami-o? Cause you seem to think they are equivilant to a +15 lv adjustment and they are not. at best they will improve an existing enh by 15% thats enough for flavor but thats it. It certainly is not the be all and end all, unless you have absolutly no skill, in which case you shouldn't be PvPing anyway.
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I was just talking to my brother about this (he is a AAA rated competitive fencer) And he changed my mind, If your going to go into competitions, you do have to take a risk.
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Of course you do. That's the thrill of it.
But there's also the point that you should be able to choose how MUCH risk you are willing to face. Your brother doesn't go into fencing bouts on the understanding that his opponent might have a howitzer.
No I do not have Hamidon Enhancements nor will I ever.
But I have seen the ridiculous numbers on them, and lets just say to get any enjoyment out of the arena I must avoid these players at all costs.
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at best they will improve an existing enh by 15% thats enough for flavor but thats it.
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O_O
sir, with respect - please check your facts!
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at best they will improve an existing enh by 15% thats enough for flavor but thats it.
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O_O
sir, with respect - please check your facts!
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I was just looking at individual Dam and not taking into accout the 12 slotting issue. But even including that and all the numbers I've seen, I dont think it warrants this much panic. However, I have fully sloted (almost) and non slotted toons on test, and my opinion of this whole situation may change depending on how bad/good the results are.
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I was just talking to my brother about this (he is a AAA rated competitive fencer) And he changed my mind, If your going to go into competitions, you do have to take a risk.
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Of course you do. That's the thrill of it.
But there's also the point that you should be able to choose how MUCH risk you are willing to face. Your brother doesn't go into fencing bouts on the understanding that his opponent might have a howitzer.
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LOL I dont think thats a fair comparison, but lets say he did go and discover he was facing a howitzer, he then has the choice, do I yield or give it a go. No one is forcing him to choose one way or the other. Taking the risk of facing a superior opponent is also part of the chalenge and fun
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LOL I dont think thats a fair comparison, but lets say he did go and discover he was facing a howitzer, he then has the choice, do I yield or give it a go.
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But he's already agreed to the bout, and the first thing he knew of the howitzer's existence would be when it hit him. Game over, man, game over.
See what I'm driving at? Without some way to either disable HOs temporarily or detect their presence in advance of agreeing to a fight, the first thing you notice will be the ungodly amounts of damage you are taking, following which it's too *late* to choose not to go through with it.
Yes, I admit that's a worst-case scenario, and the majority of PvPers won't have a full gun case full of HOs, but I think you see my point.
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assuming he works 40 hours a week, that guy who works all day to pay for the game must only be making 37.5 cents an hour. :P
Sorry i'm not statesman, and really i'm just picking on you for a clumsy sentance. just joshin'
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Uhmm...clumsy? Ok...First..spell sentence correctly (not sentance).
Second of all, my point was not how much money it costs, rather that some people just don't have the time (or the inclanation) to spend all day doing the Hami raid over and over..
Please...understand the point before "joshin"....thanks.