Well, Your all Looking at all the Negitives of HOs why don't you look at the bright side? Lets say we have Mr. Instant Healing and Mr. Blaster or Mrs. Tanker a few HOs will work well on all of them(Damage Cap/Defesne Cap/Healing Cap).
So Maybe we can have a HO limit(Just 6 To maximize a Power)(Or Only 2 to make it fair to lower lvl people)
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Anyone complaning about how they don't like it, don't have to do it. But then thay shouldn't complain about others who receive the awards for doing it.
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So, even if your playstyle will ruin or limit our PvP enjoyment -- we shouldn't complain?
That's basically what your choices boil down to -- fight from a severe disadvantage, farm a raid I don't enjoy, skip or limit my PvP experience (and probably skip CoV).
I don't care if you want to spend "extreme amounts of time" on a game until it starts to impact my fun. From everything you've said I have no reason to think it won't impact my fun -- just look at your 4 choices.
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I know I said I wouldn't reply but this is a new thought.
Have you been having fun playing CoH so far? Do you like your toons? The TF's? The cool plot lines and missions? Am I stoping you from doing any of those things by having HamiOs?.......No I am not.
I am not stoping you from having fun. If you want to compete in a PVP match you have to accept that others will be better than you for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do PvP and not face HamiOs you have the choice of playing with your friends, SGs or people you trust.
Otherwise don't join PVP, just play the game the way you were and have fun.
See my play style = zero impact on you.
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Anyone complaning about how they don't like it, don't have to do it. But then thay shouldn't complain about others who receive the awards for doing it.
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So, even if your playstyle will ruin or limit our PvP enjoyment -- we shouldn't complain?
That's basically what your choices boil down to -- fight from a severe disadvantage, farm a raid I don't enjoy, skip or limit my PvP experience (and probably skip CoV).
I don't care if you want to spend "extreme amounts of time" on a game until it starts to impact my fun. From everything you've said I have no reason to think it won't impact my fun -- just look at your 4 choices.
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I know I said I wouldn't reply but this is a new thought.
Have you been having fun playing CoH so far? Do you like your toons? The TF's? The cool plot lines and missions? Am I stoping you from doing any of those things by having HamiOs?.......No I am not.
I am not stoping you from having fun. If you want to compete in a PVP match you have to accept that others will be better than you for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do PvP and not face HamiOs you have the choice of playing with your friends, SGs or people you trust.
Otherwise don't join PVP, just play the game the way you were and have fun.
See my play style = zero impact on you.
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If I wanted to play that way, I'd be playing on a password-proected UT server, not a MMORPG. I want to play with parameters that both players can agree are fair for the duration of the match AND have them programmatically enforced. Otherwise we're back on blizzard.net with matches titled "1v1 Match, no Zerg Rush" that end 2 minutes later with "HAHAH! N00B! I zerg rushed j00! I r l33t!!"
Your play style != zero impact on me if your playstyle = only truly viable playstyle. All we want is a toggle to turn off HOs. That playstyle = zero impact on you.
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I am not stoping you from having fun. If you want to compete in a PVP match you have to accept that others will be better than you for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do PvP and not face HamiOs you have the choice of playing with your friends, SGs or people you trust.
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This is where your logic is failing.
You state you have no impact on me.
But you follow it up by describing a *large* impact - rather than join in on any random Arena match I must limit myself to well known adversaries - friends or SG members. You (as the owner of HOs) do not have this limitation.
If you have no impact on me then your choices cannot be limiting mine. But it is obviously all your HOs that would push me to limit who I fight against.
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Otherwise don't join PVP, just play the game the way you were and have fun.
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Flip this around: Say we ban HO owners from PvP. If you acquire HOs then "don't join PvP, just play the game the way you were and have fun."
Sound like a good option to you? Would you want to take your own advice? Nope - then why do you think it's gonna sound good to me?
And, of course, if I skip PvP because of your HOs -- does that sound like no impact?
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If you want to compete in a PVP match you have to accept that others will be better than you for a variety of reasons.
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But I don't have to accept that HO's should dominate PvP. Lose to a better build? Accepted. Lose to a better player? Accepted. Lose to better tactics? Accpeted. Lose to HO enhancements? Nope. Not accepting that.
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But I don't have to accept that HO's should dominate PvP. Lose to a better build? Accepted. Lose to a better player? Accepted. Lose to better tactics? Accpeted. Lose to HO enhancements? Nope. Not accepting that.
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Even if they change the way HO's work in PvP, I think everyone is going to have to accept that the people that legitimately earned those HO's, I'm talking about the people who did the planning for the raids, will probably hold most of the upper echelon of PvP'ers. I'm not saying that they would completely dominate it, but they would very likely own at least half of the top ten even without the HO's.
That said, I believe that there will be something done in addition to what Statesman wrote about. If not now, then in the near future. More likely than not the enhancements won't be changed, but there should be something done about the method of aquiring them. I really don't want to have to go through the Hamidon raid more than once or twice to be viable in PvP, and a lot of other people don't either, especially the ones who are on dial up with computers that can barely go above the minimum graphical settings.
Since I started posting about this topic, my ranking in the forums shot down from 3 stars to 1, I know that I am in a dangerous position fence sitting as I am. But nobody seems to see that the people on both sides have really good points. I don't think that there should be anything further done to HO's, other than making them more accessable to people with crappy computers.
I'm curious. What are the "good points" against letting people know their opponents have HO's ahead of time, and how many? And what are the "good points" against letting people choose a "no Hami" option for fights if they want?
I have yet to see any. Choice is good, right?
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I'm curious. What are the "good points" against letting people know their opponents have HO's ahead of time, and how many? And what are the "good points" against letting people choose a "no Hami" option for fights if they want?
I have yet to see any. Choice is good, right?
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I've not seen anyone contest those options, other than someone who foolishly said that you can't see if someone has DO's or SO's. Those are both things that may be implimented, we don't know yet.
The people speaking against eliminating the effectiveness of HO's have good points in "I earned it" and "it's the only way to improve my character after I hit level 50". The same people have good points against an HO only weight class because there are many people who only have 1 or 2 of them, due to them not wanting to do the raid again.
Then again, the people on the other side keep saying that they want a fair and level playing field, and that's something that just won't happen, no matter what. There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.
There are some people who want the hidden advantage, and the advantage given by 20+ HO's being hidden is just plain unfair.
Hence, both sides have good points.
Edit: I agree with the above post in some ways, choice is good as long as it doesn't hurt the other players. I like the idea of giving a number of each type of enhancement that is slotted (not what it does or even what power it's in), but I don't think that would solve it. There really needs to be other ways of getting Hamis... a TF or two would be a good way, heck, why not make the current TFs available to the 45+ crowd give out a hami at the end?
I am also worried that HOs will unbalance PVP, and that for many of us, we're all going to be either spending a lot of time farming, or not PVPing. The simple fact is, in ANY form of competition between people, skill and luck (I personally prefer skill) are fun factors. Handicaps are used to keep games fun between players of different skill and luck. But HOs are an unfair handicap for -anyone- who has the time to collect them. Moreover, past experience shows that such time-based "loot" building tends to lead to a small, childish community of people with too much time on their hands.
Success in any fun-based competition should NEVER be forcedly exclusive.
Some argue that it won't matter because good HOless players will be able to beat poor HO-packed players. This arguement is invalid because it's good HO-packed players that will be the problem. Good players who are maxed out on HOs can often gain enough skill to TOTALLY shut-out any players without HOs, no matter how skilled they are. Heck, it happens often enough in any even-playingfield competition already - shooter games, sports, etc.
Some argue that if we don't like it, we shouldn't PVP, and that there are still other things we can do. But that's ENTIRELY avoiding the point. The point of our arguement is that many of us are REALLY hoping for a great, fun PVP system, and for it to just be the best it can be, and to include everyone interested! The potential is there, and fortunately the Devs have been spending a lot of time to perfect it. But this is just an issue that is really worrying us. To a further extreme, there are many people who have become tired of the rest of the content of the game, and are just hoping that PVP will be interesting enough to keep the game.
Yes, it's true, this is down to a difference of our opinions. But from our point of view, HOs step on our toes, while a lack of them don't step on yours. While we can't really know until it's released, this honestly doesn't look good for us. By what we've been told, HOs still provide a huge advantage, even when exemplared. The only real fix will be an option to make HOs act like TRUE SOs, which means affecting only one aspect of a power. The best solution will be to have an option to make HOs act like that - we can have that option on, or off, and experience both.
I just want it to be fun for everyone. That's all. :P Not to mention, many of us have already spent lots of time into such a "time sink" for the sole purpose of uberizing characters in other games, and already know that in the long run, we'll regret wasting that time to do it again. For me, a "hardcore" player is one who can really rock on an even playfield anyway, I mean, doesn't that make sense?
Games are for playing anyway, not working. Let us play!
~Tyroie
Well, those are thorny issues. HO's for sale, changing effectiveness in PvP, changing uses, all that stuff is pretty complicated and far-reaching.
But just knowledge and choice? I think that's a nice place to start for PvP.
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There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.
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This would seem to be a variant of the "if we cannot make it perfect then why try at all" argument. Applied to all aspects of the game nothing would change - someone will find a way to 'rig' PvE content so why bother correcting Burn or Smoke Grenade or Wolf Farming?
Easy answer - any move towards the elusive state of 'balanced' is a good move.
We cannot have anything approaching balance if zero-HOs and 12-HOs and 40-HOs are all thrown into the same arena - so something has to be done.
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While we can't really know until it's released, this honestly doesn't look good for us.
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I suspect we'll see some sort of option, as this steps on the least toes. Allowing HOS without constraints will annoy (and potentially scare off) chunks of their loyal casual player base. I don't think they will risk CoV (many of us will be using the Arena as a preview to CoV) just to please the (I suspect) relatively small population of dozens-of-HO holders.
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Well, those are thorny issues. HO's for sale, changing effectiveness in PvP, changing uses, all that stuff is pretty complicated and far-reaching.
But just knowledge and choice? I think that's a nice place to start for PvP.
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I agree that that would be a good start, but that would hardly solve the problem... in fact, it would only delay it. As far as HO's for sale, that's a bad idea, it would negate all the hard work that several people have done in order to get those enhancements. I think that there should be another way to get them though, a trial or a TF, or even several TFs that give them out as a reward, long ones, but not especially difficult ones, or short ones that are very difficult.
In any case, what we're both arguing for is options, you in how PvP is handled, and me in how HO's are handled.
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it would negate all the hard work that several people have done in order to get those enhancements
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True, but it will save the rest of us from doing "hard work" instead of "fun stuff". I can see a positive here.
I know other MMOs have fallen in love with this hard-work = uber-rewards formula. I will point out that we are not playing those other MMOs.
CoH mostly avoided farming/uber-loot insanity (yes, HOs have been around forever, but they were kinda pointless). I am not alone in saying: "This is fundamental to why I love CoH!"
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There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.
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This would seem to be a variant of the "if we cannot make it perfect then why try at all" argument. Applied to all aspects of the game nothing would change - someone will find a way to 'rig' PvE content so why bother correcting Burn or Smoke Grenade or Wolf Farming?
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I am not suggesting that they leave in a known exploit, I am trying to point out that if you really wanted a completely even playing field, this is not the genre of game you want to play. This game, and any other RPG, will always, by design, have a way for someone to improve their character to it's fullest extent. I am not trying to suggest that they "do not try at all" to do that would be ignorant. What I am suggesting is that they try and make it more even by giving people other options than the Hamidon raid to get these enhancements.
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CoH mostly avoided farming/uber-loot insanity (yes, HOs have been around forever, but they were kinda pointless). I am not alone in saying: "This is fundamental to why I love CoH!"
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I agree. HO's in recent times have done nothing but cause arguements. But, the HO's are here, and they are here to stay. So, instead of making them not work, why not make it so that more people can get them by doing things other than raids. TFs or trials are fun ways of earning cool rewards at earlier levels, why not spread that to the high level content? One HO for a TF is a pretty reasonable exchange. Give people two or three of these TFs to choose from and then suddenly it's not farming, it's content.
bmc strikes again
kinda reminds me of the first time everyoens aw rainbow ice cream...heard it was to full of coloring.. was too sweet, fattening..tasted confusing...when i asked all the ppl complaing when they tried it ...I was very suprised to learn none of the *cencored* had even tried it....I tried it..liked it..
NOW the same complainers i see every friday buyingthe same thing a few years back they were bm&C'ing over.
...loot based huh?.... maybe i need to get those flying fiary slippers....yeah...one i loot that i will be unstopable not only in game ..but IRL ... oh yeah baby!! lets hear it for looting!!! WHOO HOO!!!
finally..some sanity...
noone said "ok there is pvp now. so you HAVE to fight everyone..
tehre is also the hollows...... i hate that place.. i dont go there..but hundreds of other ppl go...they liek it...they go..thats the wonderfullthign about this game...
you can actually chose what you want to do.....
amazing huh?
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Even if they change the way HO's work in PvP, I think everyone is going to have to accept that the people that legitimately earned those HO's, I'm talking about the people who did the planning for the raids, will probably hold most of the upper echelon of PvP'ers. I'm not saying that they would completely dominate it, but they would very likely own at least half of the top ten even without the HO's.
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I doubt there will be any correllation between leading a raid and succeeding in PvP beyond the contribution of the HOs, and the fact that the raid leaders may be PvPing in strong SG groups. There are tons of very good players out there that have not lead Hamidon raids, or even gone on them.
I find it interesting that some folks would endorse having a TF that gave out Hami O's. Is a TF not just as big of a time sink? To make matters worse, people could just do TF's over and over, with no spawn timer to worry about.
It would open up a new venue for people seeking Hami O's that cannot or will not attend raids, but farmers and "hardcore" players with loads of time would receive the greatest benefit.
I don't think you really want to exacerbate this issue more than it has already been..
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I doubt there will be any correllation between leading a raid and succeeding in PvP beyond the contribution of the HOs, and the fact that the raid leaders may be PvPing in strong SG groups. There are tons of very good players out there that have not lead Hamidon raids, or even gone on them.
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I agree that there are lots of good players who avoid the raid like the plague. There are some very good, very experienced players who have not yet reached level 50 either. But the people that lead those raids have organizational skills and in game experience that boggles my mind. Maybe some of them don't have the experience in CoH, in fact I'm sure a lot of them are ex EQ players. Either way, they tend to be the type of person who will analyze everything for a weakness... those people are usually successful at PvP.
wow this is still goin on 
This thread is hilarious, you got people posting in their same post that States said that Hammi's would be at SO level in arena, and then they COMPLAIN the next line that your powers are buffed by 50% instead of 33%.
People people people. A hammied out person will not be nearly as uber as you think. If you have 6 single origins in your attack for dmg, your going to do the same dmg as any one in the arena would do with 6 Hammi's for dmg. WHY?
THEY WORK LIKE SINGLES. They will have better accuracy than you, yes.
But lets face it guys.... your playing D&D PvP. In all reality, LUCK plays a factor in to much of the battles. That guaranteed 5% miss rate. That guaranteed 5% chance to get hit. These things make CoH not a true battle of skill. If you want true skill go play a RTS, like warcraft 3 (with a trusted friend, read further and you'll understand why).
Now look at what people are going to be doing that farm hammi's. They are using respecs to make Haste peramanent with only 4 slots.... SURPRISE AGAIN this player is now gimped vs a single origin build in the arena. Cause their hammi's only recharge at 33%. So they are missing two slots to make haste permanent.
I started participating in the hammi raids at lvl 45, the earliest I could, and being a Dark/Dark/Dark Scrapper, I feel I contribute to all phases of the raid, with Dark Blast, Petrifying Gaze, and of course my Attack line up when Hammi finally gets contained. I want these hammi's to create a Hero that I can run around Paragon's most dangerous areas and throw my self at the most challenging of villians. There is NOTHING any one can do to keep YOU an INDIVIDUAL from getting a hammi, just sit there all calm till hammi is almost dead. Go hit the thing ONCE, and run away. You will get a hammi. Just get level 45, and you can get in. Now should you be allowed into the Hive prior to 45? I don't know, do you really want to play this game, or have everything handed to you on a silver platter? Well? Whats it going to be?
PvP in all online games introduces the following into the community. Jealousy, Hacking, and Name Calling. Your going to have people that buy hammi's on ebay. Your going to have people that buy accounts on ebay. Your going to have people who in the past have kill stealed numerous HO from those who earned them. Your going to have people that now attend every raid with the sole purpose to make them selves more uber than you.
But heres the good news. Who cares its RPG style PvP. Computer is fighting half the battle for you. So the people who are doing all these thing to be A#1 with they're min/maxed build, they are the ones who loose out, cause they think they are actually skilled. *chuckles* Poor fools, they'll never realize its all for fun.
my thought exactly....seen way too many posts obviously overlooking the 57 pages before this that effectively poke holes in all arguements.....and still the same ideas keep popping up as if it hasn't been said 20 times already in the same thread....
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Anyone complaning about how they don't like it, don't have to do it. But then thay shouldn't complain about others who receive the awards for doing it.
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So, even if your playstyle will ruin or limit our PvP enjoyment -- we shouldn't complain?
That's basically what your choices boil down to -- fight from a severe disadvantage, farm a raid I don't enjoy, skip or limit my PvP experience (and probably skip CoV).
I don't care if you want to spend "extreme amounts of time" on a game until it starts to impact my fun. From everything you've said I have no reason to think it won't impact my fun -- just look at your 4 choices.