PvP Clarification: Travel Power Restriction
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-02-24 21:25 in Badges and Gladiators
I suspect squids not flying will be like when you get hit by hydra spit. You flop about, but are still in full control.
Well as long as we can know ahead of time the rules [ie; they're set before people can start joining] it won't be TOO bad, but I can imagine this rule will be extremely popular with melee classes, and avoided by the plague by everyone who has to stay away from those at all costs or die in nanoseconds.
Especially since with same-speeds, attacking with ranged characters will root you dangerously long when something's chasing you down.
Many superspeedsters use vibrating at superspeed for invisibility. Granted, those are run-at-speed-of-light superspeedsters, not run-at-100 superspeedsters.
One of the goals that was stated early on was that people shouldn't have to change their build for PvP. Droping the stealth from superspeed will make people have to change their build for PvP.
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Yes , that's a fair trade, just so I can use a defensive power I have to allow my opponent to be able to fly, ss, sj, and tp out of range every two seconds... Hover is not a travel power, it's one of the few things a blaster can use to stay out of melee range and still be able to keep accuracy and give themselves defense... if a hovering (yes and I know not every blaster uses hover, but some of us do) Blaster enters a match where travel powers are not allowed, and everyone is stuck on the ground...which is a dangerous place to be for a blaster if you can't hover or ss joust, much more dangerous than any other AT.... it does not really make for any even field, someone can basically start the match off by one shotting the blaster with a punch.
If you have done the sewer trial then you know that some things can kill you just by standing on shaking ground. (I don't think anyone Hero will be able to do Kraken damage in one shot or anything, I am just saying there are times when off the ground is your only defense)
the defensive buff we'd get to keep from hover is capped very low, all powers that give defense are capped extremely low for blasters. so we go in there, no one can use travel powers, and if hover is considered a travel power, you are up against 2 AT's with mondo defense and 2 AT's with Mondo holds and Heals and if you want to keep any of them in range for fighting you say No travel powers, but if you want to not be the first thing to die you have to say yes to travel powers so you can hover?
The only reason SS has stealth is so you don't agro horedes of mobs that either spawn on top of you as you run, or get draw right as you pass them because your video card cannot keep up.
It was never ment to be an actual stealth power.
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Currently, if you set up a match with the "No Travel Powers" ground rule then:
No flight.
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I'm assuming that this isn't going to be wholly accurate, or else the Kheldians could have problems.
Yea i can see it now.. Some scrapper makes an arena with no travel powers, puts the wager up and titles it "Ultimate Blaster Challenge" and then "OMGPWNTROLFKTHXBYE" the suckers that enter it.
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Fliers get the shortest end of this stick. They have no bonuses associated with their travel power that could be retained to preserve some usefulness in a no-travel-powers scenario.
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Flight has hover, which provides defense. Speed has hasten, which provides defense. Leaping has CJ, which provides defense. The level 14 powers in each of these PPs do not provide a defense bonus.
If anything, your argument is only valid for Teleporters... who don't have def bonuses in their entire pool.
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Maybe no def bonuses, but Posi did specifically mention that Teleport Foe would still work in No Travel Powers mode. So that is something at least. Possibly a very nice something if you are fighting on a map with nice tall buildings.
I think I'm one of the few that see the reasoning behind dropping stealth from SS. The only reason your are stealthed is because you are so fast. The model doesn't go transparent, besides you've got that huge glowing area around your feet...not exactly stealthy. I imagine your effects are visible by the other team.
Thinking about that, a regen with invis would be a glowie green star the other side could target and tanker stone armor doesn't invis....
I wonder if Inertial Reduction will get some type of added effect for PvP. I'm not saying I think it has to just that I'm curious.
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If anything, your argument is only valid for Teleporters... who don't have def bonuses in their entire pool.
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Good point. I wan't considering that flier, speeders, and leapers will be able to get their respective defense bonuses from hover, hasten, and combat jumping. Teleporters will be left with the empty greeting-card-box on valentine's day and the option to take TP Foe.
No travel powers is an option. Just an option.
Look at it this way. Say you are a superspeeding dark melee scrapper.
Sir McFlysalot is a blaster who immediately flew to max range for his basic attack straight up. Your options are to die with your toggles on, or die with your toggles off.
This is not entirely fair to mr superspeed scrapper.
Solution. Have matches where mr superspeed scrapper can play without this worry and Sir McFlysalot can have his matches where he can do his thing.
I don't see the problem here.
The stealth thing is just lame. So, not only do scrappers and tanks get to see stealthed people from a greater distance, but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all. Why does the close ranged attacker need stealth visibility anyway? You'd think that the sniping blasters would get higher visibility.
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Currently, if you set up a match with the "No Travel Powers" ground rule then:
Your ground speed is capped at Sprint speed.
Your jump height is capped at slightly above normal jump height.
No beneficial teleportation (Teleport, Recall Friend, Warshade/Dwarf 'port, etc.). Wormhole and Teleport Foe still work.
No flight.
You -still- recieve any of the other benefits those powers give you, like Combat Jumping and Hover add to your defense. You can toggle them on for the defense bonus, but you won't get the movement power.
Things that were put into powers as side effects to counter certain game-created condiitions (off the top of my head, the stealth inherent in Super Speed) are NOT given to you in the Arena. If you want any stealth in PvP, you need to be using a stealth-based power.
Of course, this is all subject to change. 
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Thanks you just eliminated STONE tanks from PvP.
Also anything is superspeed should be difficult to see. Way to go with this decision.
Why can't they just put an invisible ceiling on the match just slightly above the max jumping height (so people don't hit their heads on it), and then allow hover to be used?
Blasters get a little more distance from their foe, and melee can still hit them with the use of a quick jump. Neither has the optimal situation, and neither is totally screwed either.
Posi, here's the problem with that idea of a run speed cap...
What about us perma-elude scrappers? Isn't one of the perks of elude the run and jump speed increase? It seems unfair that a scrapper running MoG or unstoppable still retains all of their "perks" such as endurance recovery for unstoppable, while elude scrappers now just have the raised defense and the nasty endurance crash. A big part of my being glad about being SR was having the ability to be quicker in combat...now anyone can mitigate that on me simply by placing on the speed cap :S
I play alot of high level meleer's and I can't imagen any flyiers accepting a challange with travel powers off!?! I think they will be alot of lonely "Travel Off" matches as all the Fliers and probable the Super Speedsters avoid them like the plaque.
JMO
Thanks for the info Poz, I whole heartedly agree with these changes that level the playing field. I can easily imagine super speed blasters impossible for a melee type to kill without also having super speed.
Ranged flyers would also be difficult for ground based melee types, as they would never be able to win against a ranged flyers. In the comic books they can always pick up something and throw it, not true in this game for the most part.
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The stealth thing is just lame. So, not only do scrappers and tanks get to see stealthed people from a greater distance, but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all. Why does the close ranged attacker need stealth visibility anyway? You'd think that the sniping blasters would get higher visibility.
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1) With super speed, the stealth bonus does not make you harder to see. Even if it was there, we could still see you so what difference would it make??
2) The reason melee has a longer view-range for stealth is because we need to close on a blaster to see it.
Example with your logic: ScrapperDude and BlasterGuy are both stealthed. ScrapperDude has a stealthview range of 100 ft, and BlasterGuy has a stealthview range of 150 ft. BlasterGuy stays 125 ft. away from ScrapperDude and snipes him. He flees..staying just out of ScrapperDude's stealthview range. His snipe recharges, he fires. Repeat.
Totally unfair.
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Posi, here's the problem with that idea of a run speed cap...
What about us perma-elude scrappers? Isn't one of the perks of elude the run and jump speed increase? It seems unfair that a scrapper running MoG or unstoppable still retains all of their "perks" such as endurance recovery for unstoppable, while elude scrappers now just have the raised defense and the nasty endurance crash. A big part of my being glad about being SR was having the ability to be quicker in combat...now anyone can mitigate that on me simply by placing on the speed cap :S
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Problem??
You run Perma-Elude. Youre always fast, you dont have to run sprint.
They dont. They have to run sprint to be as fast as you.
Granted, sprint is only a minor END drain, but its one that you dont have to worry about, which is especially good since youre perma-elude.
This gives you an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Keep in mind that these rules are OPTIONAL. You don't HAVE to join a PVP match with these rules. Just setup or join another PVP match.
I suspect that the rules will be good for matches where people say, "Well, if you didn't have flight, I would have won!" and then people can do a rematch with those rules.
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Posi, here's the problem with that idea of a run speed cap...
What about us perma-elude scrappers? Isn't one of the perks of elude the run and jump speed increase? It seems unfair that a scrapper running MoG or unstoppable still retains all of their "perks" such as endurance recovery for unstoppable, while elude scrappers now just have the raised defense and the nasty endurance crash. A big part of my being glad about being SR was having the ability to be quicker in combat...now anyone can mitigate that on me simply by placing on the speed cap :S
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Problem??
You run Perma-Elude. Youre always fast, you dont have to run sprint.
They dont. They have to run sprint to be as fast as you.
Granted, sprint is only a minor END drain, but its one that you dont have to worry about, which is especially good since youre perma-elude.
This gives you an advantage, not a disadvantage.
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I don't think you've ever seen a character who runs elude...
You just tried to tell me that somehow being dumbed down to sprint is fair because other players would have to run sprint.
I am almost at base superspeed with elude and sprint on. My point is that it negates part of our end-power in our defense set while it doesn't bother unstoppable or MoG at all as far as their bonuses go.
I can run at sprint speed WITHOUT elude on. You also didn't address the issue that it also will negate our jump boost.
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but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all.
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The reason why SS got stealth component was because ppl would run past higher level mobs and get attacked even if they were in range of those attacks for a whole of 1 second, it's totally reasonable for that stealth component not to apply in PvP (note that SS doesn't actually make u graphically transluscent).
What I'm curious about is how would the differences between stealth, invisibility and phase-shift work. I mean invisible ok, so toons become really invisible and it's easier to loose the targeting box on them. Would stealth or phase shift make them partially visible or would they still be totally invisible just won't be as easy to loose the targeting box? Also, what about powers such as steamy mist and shadow fall, both of these have f/x accompanying them, would these be visible?
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The stealth thing is just lame. So, not only do scrappers and tanks get to see stealthed people from a greater distance, but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all. Why does the close ranged attacker need stealth visibility anyway? You'd think that the sniping blasters would get higher visibility.
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1) With super speed, the stealth bonus does not make you harder to see. Even if it was there, we could still see you so what difference would it make??
2) The reason melee has a longer view-range for stealth is because we need to close on a blaster to see it.
Example with your logic: ScrapperDude and BlasterGuy are both stealthed. ScrapperDude has a stealthview range of 100 ft, and BlasterGuy has a stealthview range of 150 ft. BlasterGuy stays 125 ft. away from ScrapperDude and snipes him. He flees..staying just out of ScrapperDude's stealthview range. His snipe recharges, he fires. Repeat.
Totally unfair.
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Many blasters use superspeed in combination with stealth to have complete invisibility, not for the speed bonus. You seem to miss that concept.
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On the other hand, the decision to remove the stealth effect of Super Speed from PvP would seem to send the opposite message by rendering the power completely useless in no-travel-power PvP matches.
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Maybe because there is no "stealth" on SS? While the real stealth type powers follow the theme of making you fully or partially invisible by mechanically increasing your -aggrorange, SS was given this component to stop insta-pop mobs from aggroing on you before you can do anything. SS does not make your model transparent in the least. I suspect we won't have PCs insta-popping when you approach them, so -aggrorange really means nothing in PvP.
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Fliers get the shortest end of this stick. They have no bonuses associated with their travel power that could be retained to preserve some usefulness in a no-travel-powers scenario.
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Flight has hover, which provides defense. Speed has hasten, which provides defense. Leaping has CJ, which provides defense. The level 14 powers in each of these PPs do not provide a defense bonus.
If anything, your argument is only valid for Teleporters... who don't have def bonuses in their entire pool.