PvP Clarification: Travel Power Restriction
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2005-02-24 21:25 in Badges and Gladiators
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SS+Stealth should still be invis(until you attack that is).
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Agreed. I'd take it a step further and just let SS vibrate their molecules faster to attain the partial stealth they currently enjoy PvE. Regardless of the reasoning behind adding stealth to SS, the devs made that addition. Removing it to play fair in no-travel-power PvP matches seems a bit restrictive considering they're already losing out on the ability to move quickly.
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You -still- recieve any of the other benefits those powers give you, like Combat Jumping and Hover add to your defense. You can toggle them on for the defense bonus, but you won't get the movement power.
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Does that mean hover doesn't slow you down? Also will hover protect you from knockbacks (shortens get up time a lot) with travel powers turned off?
Blasters having sight range means that they will be able to acquire targets easier and shoot them immediately.
Scrapps and tanks will have to close distance to be able to do anything with this extra knowledge. If they gave the ability to see through invis to noone then everyone would take invis powers so they could have time to line up everything perfectly before striking.
Eventually fights would devolve into nobody fighting because noone can see anyone outside their own team.
With meleers getting sight they can call shots for their teams and they won't be able to attack until they get closer.
Seems pretty fair to me, though I think they should just give it to the tankers who are getting pretty shafted overall with the unresistable damage getting flung around.
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SS+Stealth should still be invis(until you attack that is).
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Agreed. I'd take it a step further and just let SS vibrate their molecules faster to attain the partial stealth they currently enjoy PvE. Regardless of the reasoning behind adding stealth to SS, the devs made that addition. Removing it to play fair in no-travel-power PvP matches seems a bit restrictive considering they're already losing out on the ability to move quickly.
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From what people are assuming...which if read right, I think might be true...Posi said that SS will not have stealth component at all in the arena....limited movement match or not.
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The stealth thing is just lame. So, not only do scrappers and tanks get to see stealthed people from a greater distance, but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all. Why does the close ranged attacker need stealth visibility anyway? You'd think that the sniping blasters would get higher visibility.
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1) With super speed, the stealth bonus does not make you harder to see. Even if it was there, we could still see you so what difference would it make??
2) The reason melee has a longer view-range for stealth is because we need to close on a blaster to see it.
Example with your logic: ScrapperDude and BlasterGuy are both stealthed. ScrapperDude has a stealthview range of 100 ft, and BlasterGuy has a stealthview range of 150 ft. BlasterGuy stays 125 ft. away from ScrapperDude and snipes him. He flees..staying just out of ScrapperDude's stealthview range. His snipe recharges, he fires. Repeat.
Totally unfair.
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Many blasters use superspeed in combination with stealth to have complete invisibility, not for the speed bonus. You seem to miss that concept.
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My point is that SS does not make you less visible. It gives you a stealth bonus. For PvE it doesnt matter how visible you actually are, if you have stealth, the computer cant see you.
For this to carry over to PvP in the case of superspeed, they would have to add an actual effect to the power decreasing visibility.
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SS+Stealth should still be invis(until you attack that is).
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Agreed. I'd take it a step further and just let SS vibrate their molecules faster to attain the partial stealth they currently enjoy PvE. Regardless of the reasoning behind adding stealth to SS, the devs made that addition. Removing it to play fair in no-travel-power PvP matches seems a bit restrictive considering they're already losing out on the ability to move quickly.
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First of all, let's remember that COH "superspeed" caps out somewhere between 80-90 mph an hour. This is not fast enough for a man (or even child) sized object to be rendered invisible. It's certainly not fast enough to 'vibrate' your molecules ala the Flash (heck, even the Marvel speedsters can't do this). In addition, in comic physics, vibrating the molecules essentially gives the speedster phase shift: able to move through solid objects; it's just pure speed (which we COH speedsters don't have) that makes comic speedsters 'invisible'
Moreover, if you read the features update, there's no indication that there is any difference between invisibility and stealth. Player's will not be able to see either one without stealth detection of some sort. So removing the 'stealth' component of SS does not harm characters who also have stealth.
The only players affected are those who relied on SS instead of taking stealth. Since the only purpose of stealth in SS was to prevent pulling whole maps of creatures, using it as a primary stealth power in PvE is a bonus. That's not why it's there however. This situation is simply being corrected in PvP where aggro won't be an issue.
Also, as has been repeatedly stated, the other travel powers restrictions described are only if you choose to participate in a 'no travel powers' match. If your travel power is important to your combat strategy, then don't participate in such matches. As for elude users, of which I'm one, yes, in no travel powers matches (an only in those matches), our speed and jump bonuses will be reduced to capped sprint speed and max unpowered jump height. Again, if this is not to your test or you will feel it be overly handicapping, don't participate in such matches.
I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's opinion, but there seems to be a lot of unnecessary anger and/or panic in this thread.
I do understand the SS'ers position on stealth, which is obviously a more universal issue than the other travel powers restrictions because it will apply in all PvP, but I also understand the devs logic, and my opinion coincides with the devs, not that my opinion is worth any significant consideration.
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but now the squishies that have stealth+ss will have no advantage at all.
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You all seemed to forget this point that was posted on the main page...
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Stealth and Invisibility make heroes truly invisible to their enemies -- though environmental effects, like water splashes, can still give away their position. These powers also allow heroes to evade their opponentsÂ’ targeting reticles by putting distance between themselves and their foe.
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So those who went with the SS + Stealth, get the same effect, even without the stealth part of SS.
And as others have said, how exactly can a optional rule set be unfair? If by not having travel powers you think you'll be completely screwed, then don't play matches with that setting enabled. Just how exactly does a Optional rule harm someone if they can chose not to play in those matches?
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What about things from the Kinetics line such as Siphon Speed and Intertia Reduction?
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My questions exactly. So, Kinetics main powerset gets 2 powers that have absolutely no use- (read below ><
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Depending on how the caps work, and powers debuff, if powers offer benefits, just at a "cap", how does the math go through the Speed Debuffs?
Will it do buffs - debuffs = current speed.. or speed - debuff + buffs = current speed?
If they get debuffed from Siphon Speed, and then turn on SS, will their movement increase- thus actually gaining a benefit from Super Speed?
PS : I don't think "Caps" are a good design.. I wish they would do it differently than caps- on a power-power basis.. rather than general caps><;thus allowing Siphon Speed (which previously had no use) and Inertial Reduction (which had very little use due to Acrobatics..) to actually give their bonuses (Along with Speed Boost, of course =)). Tactical & movement advantage for a set that has 3 of its powers designed to increase movement advantage.. (I mean, it's turn off Travel Powers- They're not REALLY travel powers xD)
PPS the problem with hover working in PvP is, unlike mobs, not all players have ranged attacks =(
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My questions exactly. So, Kinetics main powerset gets 2 powers that have absolutely no use-
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I would refer you to SolarFox's post:
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And as others have said, how exactly can a optional rule set be unfair? If by not having travel powers you think you'll be completely screwed, then don't play matches with that setting enabled. Just how exactly does a Optional rule harm someone if they can chose not to play in those matches?
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Jon Doe Kenishi - 34 Kinetics/Electric Defender - Infinity
If you turn hover on (but dont actually fly) are you still unable to use "near the ground" powers.
Is combat jumping (when you cant really jump) still a no-go with Rooted?
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I'm triplely messed up. Picked up Hurdle, but that won't help. Use Superspeed (for Hasten) and *none* of my chosen Teleport powers will work.
At least I get to keep Hasten.
Still here, even after all this time!
Amazing. No one here is "screwed" by the no travel power rule if they don't select it as an option. I think some people just aren't happy unless they're complaining about something. Must be a lot of things going well if people have to pick an option that may or may not change down the road, as something to complain about.
I think most people hitting the arena will be lvl 50 and respec'ed for PvP(since they have nothing else to do with that character). I'm not sure if I'm going to PvP, but I've got a respec banked on my lvl 50 scrapper. I'll wait and see how it all lays out and maybe respec for PvP along with everyone else.
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Example with your logic: ScrapperDude and BlasterGuy are both stealthed. ScrapperDude has a stealthview range of 100 ft, and BlasterGuy has a stealthview range of 150 ft. BlasterGuy stays 125 ft. away from ScrapperDude and snipes him. He flees..staying just out of ScrapperDude's stealthview range. His snipe recharges, he fires. Repeat.
Totally unfair.
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I'm sorry but hmm lets see , try that on a regen scrapper and see if that tactic will go anywhere.....
The whole "you don't have to play that ruleset" is moot all together- You don't have to PvP, so none of this matters at all, with that logic.
Seriously.. It's an option, it's there- Look at a bigger picture..
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Maybe no def bonuses, but Posi did specifically mention that Teleport Foe would still work in No Travel Powers mode. So that is something at least. Possibly a very nice something if you are fighting on a map with nice tall buildings.
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Sure. Now if you can explain to me how you'll get to the top of that nice tall building without yourself having a travel power...
That's really the only thing I can consider to be a problem. Even if the "No Travel Powers" option is selected, a hero and villain each with Teleport Foe could find a way to use their powers cooperatively and leapfrog-teleport each other somewhere they would otherwise be incapable of reaching.
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Maybe no def bonuses, but Posi did specifically mention that Teleport Foe would still work in No Travel Powers mode. So that is something at least. Possibly a very nice something if you are fighting on a map with nice tall buildings.
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Sure. Now if you can explain to me how you'll get to the top of that nice tall building without yourself having a travel power...
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Heh, I guess you never got that level 5-8 mission to hunt Circle of Thorns in Kings Row. You learn to get up the tall buildings without a travel power, oh do you learn. %$^#% CoT and their stupid rooftop rituals.
Jumping on windows is fun!
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Heh, I guess you never got that level 5-8 mission to hunt Circle of Thorns in Kings Row. You learn to get up the tall buildings without a travel power, oh do you learn. %$^#% CoT and their stupid rooftop rituals.
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Nope, I've done that mission more times than I care to vomit. Those buildings are hardly tall enough to do any serious damage except to level 6 players hunting COTs.
Now hop to the top of the skyscrapers in Steel, without a travel power, without falling to your own death, without getting to Hover as a safety net, while people are hunting you. I'm not sure it'll be as easy as the old 'port-the-level-8-newbie-off-the-edge trick.
I can see it done, as I said, with two people using Teleport Foe on one another, leapfrog-porting the other to the next-highest windowsill.
It brings up an interesting point, though. Without a travel power at all, you can't control which way you jump. Combat Jumping allows this. Will it do so in the arena (under the optional no-travel-power rules)?
Super Jumping grants a nice reduction to falling damage. Will it do so in Arena PVP under those rules?
Hm, so with this option on my enemy can use TP Foe on my blaster to get me in melee and i dont get a travel power to regain some distance ?
Why dont we call this option "no blasters" then ?
No, there will probably be other options that are even better 'no blasters' options:
A 'melee powers only' option is possible, for instance. Or an option that caps the range on all powers to 30 feet or so.
And there are probably a full range of anti-specific-AT options, like:
No healing.
No Holds.
No Defensive Powers.
No Pool Powers.
...you get the idea. Before accepting a match, be sure to know what rules it has...
...unless of course, there's a 'random rules' option.
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Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
All these options are making me worried.
While they surely will add some variety in the arena matches (and while I'll be able to refuse no travel power matches, so its not TOO bad) they seem to hint at the Devs having problems creating a single balanced rule set for PvP (which was to be expected).
This however, will be a bit problematic in CoV i fear, because it will need a fixed rule set.
And yes, i do realize arenas will be a kind of test for the full-scale PvP of CoV, I'm just a bit wirried at what seems like a concept problem to me.
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This is only with the No Travel Power option.
You can have PVP with Travel Powers, if you want to use them.
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The same applies to Combat Jumping.
DS
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Heh, I guess you never got that level 5-8 mission to hunt Circle of Thorns in Kings Row. You learn to get up the tall buildings without a travel power, oh do you learn. %$^#% CoT and their stupid rooftop rituals.
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Nope, I've done that mission more times than I care to vomit. Those buildings are hardly tall enough to do any serious damage except to level 6 players hunting COTs.
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Who said anything about causing falling damage? I thought you just wanted to be on higher ground for the tactical advantage. Falling damage is so weak after level 5 or so that I doubt it would be useful in any way in the arena.
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It brings up an interesting point, though. Without a travel power at all, you can't control which way you jump. Combat Jumping allows this. Will it do so in the arena (under the optional no-travel-power rules)?
Super Jumping grants a nice reduction to falling damage. Will it do so in Arena PVP under those rules?
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I don't know what the exact restriction on flying powers is proposed to be, but it seemed clear that you could still activate most/all jumping powers and gain their secondary benefits (defense, less falling damage, air control) but that their jump height is capped and the speed of air control is limited to sprint speed. I saw no proposed limit on maneuverability.
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Well as long as we can know ahead of time the rules [ie; they're set before people can start joining] it won't be TOO bad, but I can imagine this rule will be extremely popular with melee classes, and avoided by the plague by everyone who has to stay away from those at all costs or die in nanoseconds.
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"This will be avoided by those who really want a turkey shoot when fighting melee characters."
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So, instead, a blaster must come within 25' of the scrapper to see where said scrapper is at, but the scrapper can see the blaster coming from 50'? How is it fair that a blaster(who will get seriously f'd up in melee range of a scrapper) has to get that close to see a stealthed scrapper? Blasters secondary effects are already negated by all scrappers and tanks, and now we can't even sneak around to line up a good attack cycle? When you attack an enemy in game, your concealment is negated until you move far enough away to lose agro. When you fight another person, they will see what direction said snipe is coming from, will also see said blaster(after he attacks) and it will be nearly impossible to get out of view of the scrapper/tank with them chasing you. Giving anybody better vision just doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense to give it to the two AT's with the biggest advantages.
Try sniping a regen scrapper than running away....full hp w/in 2 secs. Try sniping any tanker and see how long that battle would last. Try sniping an SR scrapper(prolly 50% chance of hitting even with aim+bu). Don't give the advantages to the people that don't need it. SS+Stealth should still be invis(until you attack that is).