Thank you for the Wolf Mission Timer
By
10101,
Posted on: 2005-02-22 21:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The Devs have solved one of the silliest things in this game.
Farming Werewolves.
The timer was the solution many people suggested and it should help clear out some of the tells you get as a high end tank.
Such as: hay u got wolves mish? Can you pl meh?
Now people can go back to playing the game hopefully.
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as many have already stated... this really doesn't solve anything for the poor player that feels cheated lol.
Newsflash: You can farm anything. I can think of about 20 other missions off the top of my head that you can do this with.
My gratification is that people will shutup about the stupid wolf mission now and can return to being jealous about other things such as, "why do you pwn so much more than i do!! Devs can you please nerf him!!!"
Sorry for the rant, but it just gets tiresome to watch players whine and whine and whine about stuff that really doesn't effect them one bit. I don't run wolf missions, and I don't PL, but i'd much prefer the devs to spend time on new content than listening to the endless complaints about "he is so much cooler than I am and I'm mad about it" threads.
Within this very topic, I can find people who say they hate the wolf mission and they never do it. My argument has been used numerous times before, but I really agree with it: what's the point?
What kind of gamer does the wolf mission? The kind of gamer who'd accept any other "unfun" mission as long as it gave good exp. If somebody isn't happy doing the "fun" content, then I don't think it's worth the trouble of trying to force them into it.
Case in point: me. My first contact was Antonio Nash at level 1. My second contact was Colleen Nelson at level 32. And in between them is a long list of contacts with empty bars. But it's been nine months, and I'm still happy as a clam to be playing.
I love making alts, playing them, and examining each powerset and the way they relate to each other. I also love inventing concepts and imagining stories which nobody will ever read. I've seen most of the content through the eyes of my many alts, but to me, that's where the fun is. And at first, I felt somewhat resentful that Statesman came to the forums to tell me what's fun and what isn't.
Yeah, I know that I took it out of context, and that he didn't mean it that way. I'm cool with him trying to fix something that he thinks is wrong with the game. He is lead designer, after all. This is mighty big coming from a guy with an Invul scrapper. Nevertheless, what I'm not cool with is the collateral damage. All the people who'll fail the mission because of the timer, all the people who just want some quick exp to get out of a rough patch, and all the people like myself who actually found it fun.
Where you replying to me? Okay then, let's knock these out one by one shall we. 
You want to know what is silly? Complaining about lack of content when you bypass it to sell these [censored] powerleved alts on ebay.
I do think the lower level content is a bit thin, but I wasn't so much complaining about the content. In fact the entire reason I PL'ed my controller was to see the newly added content.
Guess what people powerlevel to sell characters.
Not I, and I suspect a lot of others like me.
If you go through the same mission five times stop playing the damn game or making alts and concentrate on a game.
If you don't want to play the content which is the missions, tfs, trials then don't play the game.
I've finished every Trial, every TF except the Positron one and the final Striga one, have every arc souvenir but one, have every mission badge, have all the exploration and history badges, completed my respec missions, completed about 75% of my defeat badges, have all the special event badges. Sorry, but I don't think this applies to me either.
Getting tells asking for powerleveling or not being able to get a team to fight AVs is why powerleveling gets fixed.
LOL, ignore the tells. Not hard to do. Don't respond, don't even bother typing in /ignore <name>. Just don't bother with 'em if it bothers you that much. In fact I can't reacall a single time I've gotten a blind tell asking me to PL them. Of course that might just be because scrappers are so gimpy. 
As for getting an AV team together it can be tough to get teams together for a lot of things. Been trying for quite a while to get a team together for the final Striga TF and I serously doubt PL'ing is the reason I am still looking.
Explotiting a mission or anything in a game is wrong and is a violation of the EULA.
Again, how is resetting a mission an exploit? I just don't understand this one. Would you rather all missions be set so that once you accept it you only have X amount of time to complete it, and that once you actually enter it the mission is either do or die. No leaving to get inspirations, no logging out, no lost connections, no leaving to tp a friend to the door, no more anything. Once you enter you either finish the mission or fail. No longer can sk's accompany you on missions, only other players within +/- 3 levels of the mission holder can enter the mission. Even with all these ridiculous changes do you really think it would stop PL'ing?
People who powerlevel are not in the game for the long term. Most of them went to EQ and WOW and powerleveled their then slowly are coming back here.
This is the first and only MMO I've ever played and I don't plan on playing any others any time soon.
True gamers don't care about getting levels. You level fast enough as it is in this game.
That is definitely questionable. Levels is definitely a motivating force behind the design of this game. It is the only real way of marking progress. And there are definite patches of the game where this leveling slows down. Early mid 20's (depending on build), late 30's, late 40's, are all areas where the grind really sets in.
And how the hell can you run out of missions nowadays?
LOL
Tons of people who don't powerlevel at all find they have several contacts each level bracket that are still empty on the contact bar.
I can say this has never, ever happened to me. I have run out of available missions several times with my scrapper where I had to spend 1-1 1/2 levels street grinding or TF Cycling. Thank God for the Krackens that got me from 38 to 40 or I might have thrown in the towel.
Who the hell gives a damn if you got six level 50s?
No one. I would like to eventually have one though.
Go to another game if you get bored. Powerleveling or additional content won't solve your boredom.
Go to another game? Great argument. Here let's try it. "If you don't like herding go to another game!" PL'ing has certianly helped me enjoy the game more since I3 came out. It allowed me to enjoy the new content without having to grind through 20 odd levels of repeat missions.
And herding is the most boring thing ever. It is not exciting at all for anyone.
I'll use the main man's own words here for you to review. "Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree. "
Every tank I played and every tank I have ever seen fell asleep herding.
Then don't herd.
Fighting an AV at least you have a chance of dying. Herding wolves not so.
Maybe not for your tanker, but my scrapper has some pretty tight moments now and then.
BTW for those not too quick on the up take yellow=me, white=Idioteraser, and red=Statesman
I will never understand why some people insist on everyone else doing things their way.
I would be willing to bet some of the "wolf mission whiners" are the same people who would insist on everyone driving hybrid cars, no more SUVs, insist on taking guns away, they don't agree they can be "fun" or useful, or insist on banning smoking from bars or private clubs, even though they may never even go there and anyone who does is perfectly aware of the dangers.
Let people do their thing, and you do yours.
One poster wants to paint the pl'ing community with a pretty wide brush. I would just remind you that there are a wide range of reasons why people do what they do, and a wide spectrum of people who do them.
I hate to beat a dead horse, it's been repeated often here, but it won't stop. Any changes similar to this are only going to inconvenience the casual gamers.
I don't know what advice I could give the poor souls who put themselves through aggravation because of the way someone else plays their game. You can't change people or force them to like your playstyle, I don't care WHAT you do. Maybe try these.....
1. Join a supergroup that is only into the things YOU are into.
2. As suggested above, edit your chat tab and take out broadcast and /tells, only seeing team messages and SG chat.
-OR-
3. Next time you see a /tell or broadcast for it, give yourself a giggle and shake your head and think to yourself "what are they thinking?" But then shut up about it.
Hmm, anyone wanna herd some bums?
50 Heroes:
Inv/EM, Ice/Device, Inv/Fire, Fire/EM, Fire/Kin, Ill/Rad, Grav/Storm, Spines/Regen, DM/SR
50 Villains:
EM/Regen
Founding member of Old School, Triumph
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well i for one am really mad about this one of the really fun things i enjoy about this game is being able to help friends lvl quickly by doing these missions, its one of the only fun things left for a lvl 50 character
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I really don't get this. Hey new to CoH guy! I love this game, got y guy to 50 doing all these cool missions, task forces, completing story arcs, now I'll help you skip all that . . .
The thing here is that putting a timer on the wolf mission still won't solve anything. People will still herd to PL their buddies' alts. They'll just either find another mission or herd in public. If herding in puplic starts up again, I'm not sure I can take it. PI is the only viable place for most people to hunt in the 40s, and is likely to be herded like crazy if people can't find a good mission to herd.
What's more, is that herding wolves is a lot of fun for a lot of people, so States, your excuse doesn't fly with me. Is it an exploit? Not any more, the disorienting boulders of doom made sure of that, now it's tougher than crap to herd those puppies. I think I know the REAL reason they added a timer to the Shadowhunter missions, they want PLers to go out and find an exploit so they can fix another one. It's just been too quiet on the exploit front. Am I right, Statesman? C'mon, you can tell us, we'll understand. 
Someone who says that there is plenty of high level content, that you don't run out of missions, and says that they fall asleep during herding, strikes me as someone who has done some power-leveling themselves...now, they complain about others doing the that exact same thing.
Does defeating 45-50 Ritki/Crey in the Ritki Crash Site 6 times in a row qualify as exciting? Maybe to some it does but, IMO, that is not necessarily thrilling content. Now I am stuck for a full level and a half with one contact (I guess I could go to the shadow shard but I have already done that with my main character and I didn't find it exciting the first time). Also, my one contact is giving me AV missions which will mean I have to team every time I play with this character.
Pinnacle: 8-50s, Current: Reflex Arc (40 BS/Shield) & Lord Amsterdam (33 Arch/Nrg)
Triumph: 4-50s, Current: Grim Wolf (45 Ninja/Traps) & Israeli Avenger (45 Ice/Axe)
Virtue: 5-50s, Current: Dazzling Sunset (40 DB/WP)
Guardian: Current: Maori King (27 WP/DB)
In response to the white text:
Thanks. I personallly love it when people like this tell me not only what I'm supposed to have fun doing, but also how I'm supposed to play. Boy, I sure am glad people like this are around to set me straight! Any more suggestions? I mean, I really want to play the game YOUR way and not mine, cuz that's what's REALLy fun.
Seriously, why do people write responses like this? Do people really think like this? Or are they really that dense and ridiculous?
On another note.. I was wondering why they changed this anyway. To stop herding? To stop PLing? Why did they add werewolves to the Nemeses section of the Information Kiosk? No other Praetorian villain group has a spot there. Was it to keep track of how much herding was actually going on? Why make a public counter of something that you don't want us to kill a lot of in the first place?
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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.
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Speaking as someone who hasn't really partaken of the whole "wolf herding" phenomenon, I'm troubled by the change here - several wolf-filled missions have archvillains in them, and one is the end of a story arc. What bothers me is that timed missions have an in-game reason for being timed...except these. Now, we have a random assortment of timed missions that are timed solely to prevent people from using them a certain way. That, in combination with the decision to give the wolves stun attacks strikes me as making the game less fun for the people who play it legitimately.
There seems to be a tendency in this game to stack drawbacks - tanker and Kheldian design come immediately to mind. Now it's extended to wolf missions. "You get this beneft, so you'll get this penalty, and this penalty, and this penalty." Eventually, the idea of risk vs. reward gets skewed and people feel punished for trying to play the game.
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Well said Kali. Well said.
Im rather disgusted by changes made that affect all of us when it comes to only a few who actually abuse the game
this way. The funny thing is it really hasnt stoped tanks from herding wolves... What worries me now is that before the wolf farming/herding was kept indoors in a mission. When they are no longer any missions left. Will we see these fools power leveling low level folks by herding outside on the streets?? The fact of the matter is that people who want to power level and herd said mobs will always find a way to do so. And while I find it utterly stupid to power level in such a way wolf missions keeps these fools out of the damn streets!
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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.
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To be quite honest, with the phenomenal job the devs have been doing with this game, I'm quite shocked that this timer was put in. I don't mind that you do it, it is in essence your world that we pay to populate. However, I do have a couple of concerns.
Are you going to alter the content to suit the mission changes? A timed mission is usually regarding hostages or bombs or some other time sensitive occurance. Rushing to consecrate some bones within a certain amount of time strikes me as more of a religious reality tv show contest than anything else. Stick some kidnapped squishies in there or something to make the timer a little more in par with the mission. Would be cool to save some other heroes again.(Note: I haven't run the wolf missions too much since I cleared mine to progress the arc, so I'm not sure if there have been any story changes.)
The other, and much more serious, concern I have relates to the devs attitude towards issues like this. This one is, in the scheme of things, relatively minor but is definitely a step towards sacrificing the integrity of the game in order to address the loudest complaints. I have seen this primarily with SWG and with EQ 2 a little less. I won't endeavour to go into details but the one thing I love the most about CoH and its dev team is their commitment to providing ongoing content on a relatively regular basis. Its brought me back to the game and kept me here with the same level of interest I had when I was playing in beta. I would really like (and know I will probably never get) some assurance that this wolf mission isn't a sign of things to come. ie "People are whining on the forums and 'such and such' supergroup is up in arms about this particular mission... so lets stick an AV in it.. or a timer... or something". I think the development team has and is doing an astounding job with this game I just really don't want it to suffer the same bureaucratic fate that other games wallow into and can't pull themselves out of.
Please don't sacrifice the integrity of your original vision in order to silence the loudest complaints who, in my belief, don't even represent the majority.
Awww, they nerfed the Wolf mission?
I was looking forward to experiencing what so many people are talking about, but I guess i'll just have to deal with being 'forced to enjoy' the 'content.'
Actually, they just applied the wrong solution. Simpler way to end this (and most other mission cycling) would be to limit a mission to being repeated no more than three times--after that the contact marks it as 'failed' and moves on to the next.
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Actually, they just applied the wrong solution. Simpler way to end this (and most other mission cycling) would be to limit a mission to being repeated no more than three times--after that the contact marks it as 'failed' and moves on to the next.
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Um, this is the only way they can do what you are saying here. You get the mission, it *will* end in one hour.
If it isn't timed, you can "repeat" the mission as much as you want. The game engine can't tell how many times you "started" the mission. Only how many times you've completed it.
Still here, even after all this time!
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What about the people who ENJOY herding wolves? I've ran a few and had a blast doing it, much bigger rush than anything else in this game including the AV fights.
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Whats that old Stones song...you can't always get what you want?
But seriously, I loved doing those box missions that gave insane xp. My SG had a blast talking and leveling and getting some alts up fast. It was FUN, to us anyway. But I also knew that it was not what the Devs want COH to be, so I was not upset when it got changed.
And while herding wolves may have been a rush for you, it is not a rush for the defender or blasters or controllers or non-invuln scrapperes/tankers who simply sit there and soak up xp while occasionally healing or tossing in an AOE or something. For them it's mucha xp for minimal risk...and thats simply not fair when it can be done so consistantly that as an invuln tank I got asked ten times a night if I could help hunt wolves.
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If it isn't timed, you can "repeat" the mission as much as you want. The game engine can't tell how many times you "started" the mission. Only how many times you've completed it.
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If the system carries enough bitfields on a player to track dozens of "how many clockwork gears have you killed" type integers, it can certainly carry a "how many times has this mission been reset" integer. The coding is trivial.
I have some more things I find "unfun" that need fixing as well.
Malta Sappers = UNFUN
Invulerability has no psionic defense = UNFUN
Inv Scrappers only have 75% resistance = UNFUN
Wolfs throwing rocks = UNFUN
Hami Spawning 200+ mito's = UNFUN
I am sure I forgot a few others.
Can we get these fixed too?
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I have some more things I find "unfun" that need fixing as well.
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You're assuming that 'unfun' was the reasoning behind this change. I'm assuming 'it's a developer's job to actively limit exploits' was the reasoning. The devs (to this point) have been silent, and will likely continue to be.
But there's a basic law of the universe that a lot of people are ignoring here: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is. Wolf herding was simply too good to be true, and remain that way forever--too much reward for effectively zero effort.
The crowd's moved on to exploiting other missions instead, and the predictable, sure as the sun rises dev response will be that those missions will also see changes.
For those saying that this will hurt the casual gamer, I think your mistaken. I'm fairly casual (not the most casual out there since I bother to read the boards), and I really don't think that it matters. Missing one accolade isn't really a big deal to me. I've been in the 40's long enough, that I've seen invites to most of the AV missions, so if it did matter, I would eventually be able to get it.
Also, there is a bit of a rush to try and take out an AV in 1 hour. It adds an element of suspense. Like the 10 minute find all the clicky mission. You have a real chance of failure. So long as it doesn't start creeping up in all missions, I don't see a problem. Maybe upping it to 2-3 hours would help, in case you play at off times.
As a side note, the shadowhunter mission was the worst mission for me to find a team. Most people I've asked to join AV missions say yes or no right away, usually yes. This is the only mission where the player would ask if you were herding before saying no. Something about that just sat wrong with me, especially when it was person after person doing it. Plus I was being ignored by more people then usual (usually I at least get a response), which I suspect was because they were assuming I was herding!
Hunt out Statesman's earlier post, the word "unfun" becomes associated with this issue there. Not saying I necessarily agree with the poster you're refuting, but you might want to know this.
Well.
It's a bit disappointing, but there are enough wolves in the game (striga) already for the Atlas Medallion, so that's fine.
However, given HOW GOOD portal jockey is, I *would* be upset if I couldn't get my accolade because I failed the Shadowhunter mission. Definitely.
My SG has done some of the WW PL thing, we have one guy who played through a blaster to 50, and then got a second account so he could level to the point where he would have fun with alts (and not, so far as I can tell, to sell on ebay).
I don't see anything wrong with that... he learns how to use the toons when he plays them. Big deal.
What I really hate, about ALL timed missions in the game, are that they are on a real-world timer. You have 2 hours, or 10 minutes, or whatever... and some of them are STILL stealth-timed, say, one you get automatically after finishing another.
What I'd REALLY like, what would make me VERY happy as a player, is if timers only applied to logged in time. They do it in WoW, I don't see it as game-breaking if they'd do it in CoH.
You have a one hour timer to get your AV mission done? Well, log out, log in as an alt, and start recruiting! Or save it until your SG is on (I play mornings before work sometimes, when very few people are on... and I hate hate hate getting timed missions then).
That the WW missions are now timed, I don't really care about. People can herd and farm other missions, unless they make ALL missions timed, or just make it so that no tanker/etc can EVER survive more than 10 mobs (which would piss me off as a player, too... and make the respec TF with its final wave of 4 groups impossible to boot).
If they did that, I'd probably just quit, honestly. All timed missions = no fun for me, as I sometimes have to leave, or do other things, or my wife has made dinner, etc etc.
IF they made all missions timed, but put timers on hold while you were offline... eh. That's okay I guess, but I still probably wouldn't like it.
And preventing the resetting of missions? Yeah, so your 4-person team has gone to 8, or your 8-person team has gone to 4... you're SOL, enjoy your debt now. I'd really hate that if it was done across the board.
So - what I want is for timed missions to TIME OUT while you are offline. I think that would be VERY fair to those of us who, y'know, have jobs but still play at odd hours... and don't like to fail missions even though there's no real penalty for doing so.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.
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Man, i'm thankful your here to tell me whats fun and what isn't. I must be way off base, cause I accually belive i had a good time in the wolf groups i got into. Silly me.
And to belive i was missing out on content when i was in groups... and here all this time i belived i ran out of missions. Obviously i was wrong, and my contacts were just playing hard to get. (I know Indego was hot for me. LoL)
And, i'm really really glad that i'm now forced to level up all my alts from here on out with the same contect and missions and story archs and TFs. i mean, since your working on PvP right now, i'm pretty sure extra content won't be added until issue 5.. and at the rate of release, that's what, 4 months away? (i'm being generious with 4. i'm beating more on 5 or 6 personaly... DOH, did i type that out loud?)
So for the next few months my choices for fun are partaking in PvP, which, for the most part i suck at and have never really like... AND RERUNNING all my old missions with my new alts?
Can you do me a favor and give me a list of FUN, and UNFUN activites so i don't make this mistake in the future? I'd really hate to think i might waste my time and energy on activities that aren't fun, and not even know it... so i'd appreacite your help in this reguard.
KingSnake.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
You know what, you are right this is your game, Statesman, but I have fun herding wolves. To me it is extremely challenging and rewarding. The bigger problem is that you changed it in a patch and there was absolutely no notice or word about it in the patch notes that day. Is that how you guys do things now? First we see "We are looking into the wolf missions" and no definative answer if its bad to herd wolves then you guys go and stealth nerf the missions for future herders. Its really sad. You have a huge group of people that absolutely enjoy doing it and because you think its not fun you are going to change it. Like I said, your game etc but its my credit card that pays for my 2 accounts. I'll vote my opinion and make my change by cancelling if this keeps happening. Please concentrate on new content and stop nerfing your game.
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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.
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Only problem I have, is that it doesnt fix anything, and just puts a too short timer on a big mission with an AV in it. Wolves, after the boulder/disorient, werent really any better to herd than most other mobs. So will ALL maps have timers on them? Whats the point? People will just herd other stuff.
1 hour is too short to kill all wolves, click 15 glowies, and kill an AV. Id say the map now REQUIRES herding. Especially on an outdoor map. Ive had to petition a GM to come multiple times this last week ALONE to find that last mob.
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I'm assuming 'it's a developer's job to actively limit exploits' was the reasoning. The devs (to this point) have been silent, and will likely continue to be.
[/ QUOTE ] The dev's have a very limited defnition of what an exploit is. If you would like to find out, submit a mission as an exploit and see the response you will get. I know I have submitted something I thought was an exploit, something that greatly increases your xp without increasing the risk at all. I was told point blank it wasnt an exploit. It may be a bug, but it would have to go to Q&A for testing.
Now the portal looping, was that an exploit? Judge the speed to which they resolved that versus the wolf mission, which had been around for longer.
No this attempt was to guide us over into other content. Which I do not think it will succeed, and hurt people who want to experience the content naturally.
The wolf herding was not an exploit. The devs had said so. See Statesmans post on a similar issue.
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I think people misunderstand why developers interfere and make changes. I could care less how fast someone earns influence. But I am concerned when someone is doing somethingg "unfun" in order to gain levels quickly and thereby bypassing other, more interesting content. Admittedly, "fun" and "unfun" are completely subjective, so people can disagree.
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Speaking as someone who hasn't really partaken of the whole "wolf herding" phenomenon, I'm troubled by the change here - several wolf-filled missions have archvillains in them, and one is the end of a story arc. What bothers me is that timed missions have an in-game reason for being timed...except these. Now, we have a random assortment of timed missions that are timed solely to prevent people from using them a certain way. That, in combination with the decision to give the wolves stun attacks strikes me as making the game less fun for the people who play it legitimately.
There seems to be a tendency in this game to stack drawbacks - tanker and Kheldian design come immediately to mind. Now it's extended to wolf missions. "You get this beneft, so you'll get this penalty, and this penalty, and this penalty." Eventually, the idea of risk vs. reward gets skewed and people feel punished for trying to play the game.
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