Thank you for the Wolf Mission Timer
By
10101,
Posted on: 2005-02-22 21:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Okay, this was probably said, I dont want to read through 26 pages of post to find out.
AV's should not be on a timed mission. Plain and simple. Especial on that is needed for a badge. You just asking for a high failure rate.
I am sorry that people are exploiting it, but there has to be a better fix. Any outdoor instance is going to be subject to possible herding. Find some other way reduce this exploit. Make the mobs more resistant to herding by making them stay within a fixed radius of where they spawned. A radius larger then a 6 slotted snipe attack.
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Failing missions usually has no consequences on arcs....unless they changed these specifically, and I really doubt they would.
You fail it, it'll just say: "Buck up !! Good news !! Shadowhunter's wolves all picked up Smallpox when you guys visited and it turns out, you did eliminate all of them !! And Shadowhunter stubbed his toe on an upturned root....so he's not gonna conqueur our world cause you failed this mission. You just aren't gonna get influence or adoration of millions of fans on this mission....but, hey...guess what...the NEXT Praetorian AV ......."
Heh...don't worry fail or not you're still ok.
Served Cold: 50 Ice/Storm/Ice
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Doesn't the AV count toward a badge at the end? So failing the timed mission will hurt him...(he'd have to go team with someone else who has it, but he'd have to rely on whoever that would be).
MA Author: Look for my eight arcs under @Witty Librarian!
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just be greatful they didnt just give the wolves psi. that would really screw it up. and yet, be very funny.
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Failing missions usually has no consequences on arcs....unless they changed these specifically, and I really doubt they would.
You fail it, it'll just say: "Buck up !! Good news !! Shadowhunter's wolves all picked up Smallpox when you guys visited and it turns out, you did eliminate all of them !! And Shadowhunter stubbed his toe on an upturned root....so he's not gonna conqueur our world cause you failed this mission. You just aren't gonna get influence or adoration of millions of fans on this mission....but, hey...guess what...the NEXT Praetorian AV ......."
Heh...don't worry fail or not you're still ok.
Served Cold: 50 Ice/Storm/Ice
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Doesn't the AV count toward a badge at the end? So failing the timed mission will hurt him...(he'd have to go team with someone else who has it, but he'd have to rely on whoever that would be).
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So in reality they killed 2 birds with one stone. Not only did they "attempt" to curb herding and powerleveling but they are forcing you to group if you dont complete the mission in the time alloted. Forget the fact that you "may" see SH again...cause you may not.
Just another sad attempt to force grouping down our throats.
An honest post from States would read something like this: OK, so that we keep you playing the game longer and keep my paycheck rollin in, we're going to throw in some lame excuse for a fix and say it's for your benefit. Really we can't come up with anything better at the moment. Oh and btw, we could care less what you write here cause i've already posted on the matter and that's final.
Now, i do agree that there should be a fix, so don't get me wrong. This is NOT the correct one though.
AVs were always meant to be group content.
As for AVs in timed missions several timed missions with AVs existed when they added the post 40 content.
You should have a team ready before you accept an AV missions and the post 40 AV contacts warn you need a team anyway.
Don't want to do the group content skip it.
There are a bunch of fallacies with the pro-exploiters' logic here:
Logical Fallacy #1: "AV missions shouldn't be timed."
Before two weeks ago, I would have agreed with this statement, but then I was invited onto a team by a lone tanker who had a timed ArchVillain mission--one that was not Shadow Hunter. Other ArchVillian missions in the game are timed, so there's nothing inherently unfair about that.
Logical Fallacy #2: "Now people won't have a chance to get the Portal Jockey badge."
If someone is recycling one of the critical missions for the Portal Jockey badge over and over and over, she or he is clearly not intending to get it, anyway. This argument is entirely disingenuous on the face of it.
Logical Fallacy #3: "Powerlevelers who herd can just use other missions."
If they could, then they would have been doing so already; they wouldn't be coming here, begging the developers to return their exploit to them. There were reasons the "wolf-herding" missions were favored by exploiters while other missions were not. No one ever shouted for "kitty-herding mission" or begged total strangers to "bridge for Carnies". The fact that thread after thread has appeared on these boards, enraged that the exploit has been curtailed, indicates how favored this one particular exploit was. This thread alone has 250+ posts in it, most of them exploiters whining about the loophole being closed on them.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Your arguments are pretty weak. Sorry, but there really isn't any other way to put it.
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If they could, then they would have been doing so already
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Most had, even before the timer was added. With the added disorient attacks and boosted resistances only people a step or two behind the fold were still herding wolves. Just wasn't worth the time investment considering there are easier mobs out there.
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most of them exploiters whining about the loophole being closed on them
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Nope, I'm compaining about the devs lack of understanding about why people herd and reset missions and lack of motivation to address that issue. They seem to have taken the easy route just to keep the PL whiners quiet.
People who simply want to PL and gain levels don't care if it is wolves, or freaks, or Council, or DE, or Malta, or Carnies, or whatever. Not one bit.
Does adding a timer to this single instance of a a mission do anything to address the reason why people were resetting and farming the mission? Not one bit.
How far are we willing to go to address this "problem"? Make PI a hazard zone thus not allowing +40 players to team with lower level friends a majority of the time? Are we willing to make all 40+ missions timed to stop mission resetting? Maybe we could completely overhaul the XP system to where mobs no longer give XP on a mission map and have the only XP for a mission come at "mission complete"?
How far exactly do we want to take this to stop something some people see as a problem? How much dev time should be preoccupied by these "problems" that could have been better spent addressing problems that actually effect a large number of players game experiences?
Notably, you tapped an argument I already countered in my post.
If people didn't care about this mission, if they really had "moved on", then why are the exploiters here complaining that this one exploit got closed down?
If people were herding other missions, as you say they were, then why was there a constant stream of shouts for "wolf-herding" but not for "Malta-herding" or "Carnie-herding" or anything else? Why was the barrage of blind-invites I got between levels 42 and 45 exclusively from people looking for a "bridge 4 wolf herding", but not for something else?
No, that just doesn't add up right. The outrage over the timer is out of balance with your claim. If you were correct, people would just shrug their shoulders and move to the next one. But they didn't. They came here to whine about it, instead.
People don't whine if they have a remedy at hand to their situation. They don't cry about something being "unfair" if they could just move on and do it in another mission.
The volume and hysteria in these posts is inconsistent with your claims.
I guess time will tell, though. If there's another "herding" exploit mission or series of missions, it's not like we won't hear about it. The nature of the exploit requires those engaging in it be public about it. They need "bridges" and, given past experience, have to solicit strangers to get them or broadcast publicly for them. As smug as those are who claim "there's another mission, we'll just be more quiet about it" are, the fact is that they can't be quiet about it. Of course, I think they're just blowing smoke with the claim that there are other missions.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
I have to say that I think Paragon City is better off without the wolf herding exploit.
Will other exploits be found? Certainly. Can other missions be farmed for great xp? Certainly.
Like someone said "it's nice to go do laundry and come back and have gained a few levels" but that's not really the way COH is supposed to be "Played".
Of course, I picked up my wolf mission a day or two before the timer....hmmmmm
hhahahahaha Actually, getting the mission blew my mind : ) I picked it up accidentally as I was working through my AV missions. I was like "The great wolves mission." and I farmed it a couple of times on my own (Spines/Regen isn't a tank, but can certainly get some good xp farming this mission with smaller herds), and said "Well, I don't want to complete this one just yet. I mean it's what all the fuss is about, but I don't want to farm it. hmmmm. What to do? WHat to do?" So, I created a new character and haven't played with Terp Man since......
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Of course, I think they're just blowing smoke with the claim that there are other missions.
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Heh, and once again, everyone is already three steps behind. That is the real reason you'll never end PL'ing. This also illustrates your lack of knowledge about how things are actually happening. Herding isn't something specific to wolves. Resetting the mission isn't only applicable to this one mission.
*sigh* I might as well just quit wasting my time. Have fun complaining about the next "exploit" once it becomes known, becuase I'm certain that once again by the time you do find out about it and the devs "fix it" you'll already be behind the times. 
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If people didn't care about this mission, if they really had "moved on", then why are the exploiters here complaining that this one exploit got closed down?
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Well, we can't play CoH at work...
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If people were herding other missions, as you say they were, then why was there a constant stream of shouts for "wolf-herding" but not for "Malta-herding" or "Carnie-herding" or anything else? Why was the barrage of blind-invites I got between levels 42 and 45 exclusively from people looking for a "bridge 4 wolf herding", but not for something else?
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Wolves had a number of advantages that made them the easiest mob to herd:
1. No ranged attack. Herding melee-only mobs is laughably easy.
2. No mez attacks, no trump-card attacks like psi or end drain.
3. They run fast, so it's feasible to pull an entire map.
Even after #1 and #2 got taken away, reason #3 is a really good reason to herd wolves. People who haven't tried herding probably don't realize just how tedious it is to herd things that move at normal speed.
Personally, I have a legacy wolf mission on my 50 tank and I would probably use it if I felt like herding. Since I think herding is boring it's unlikely to see a lot of use.
If I lose that mission I would start looking for a good replacement. I assume people who are into herding have already done so. Probably something with Council, Freaks, Family, Crazies, Bobcat minions, Battle Maiden minions, Marauder minions, or Nemesis. Maps with dumpsters preferred but negotiable.
See, that still doesn't answer my question.
If the "puppy" exploit was "so last year", then why the hysteria over it being closed down?
This thread alone has 250+ posts--and there are at least four threads on the Suggestions board--most of them whining by cheaters and exploiters that this one particular exploit got shut down.
As I said before, this level of hysteria, this volume of whining, would not happen if there were a reasonable alternative. People would move on to one of the other methods of cheating instead of screeching like harpies that this exploit got shut down.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
I think the main reason people are complaining is because the seem to give into all the crybabies that are simply jealous because they lack the social skills and/or intellect to gain easy access to groups and because of this they want revenge on the people who are actually having fun.
That's my opinion anyway. 
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Really frentic, hard and exciting ways to gain even boatloads of XP are fine. Risk and reward.
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I'm guessing you never ran the wolf mission did you? This is the only mission I've been on that actually was a challange and has caused me to die 
. These missions are one hell of a rush 
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This is a reply to an ancient part of this thread, but ... did you do the mission? Were you the resident tank? I wasn't. It was boring as hell. I hovered around and gained XP.
In case you don't know the vogue version of this included exclusively a Tanker and maybe some buffers for him, one or more Devices Blasters laying boatloads of mines in garbage hods, and then XP leeches. Unless maybe you're the tank, that was as exciting as watching paint dry.
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So if your not having fun, go do something else? You are not being forced to sit there you chose to
And yes I was the tank, and its fun having something being able to kick your butt and make you pay attention to what your doing.
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See, that still doesn't answer my question.
If the "puppy" exploit was "so last year", then why the hysteria over it being closed down?
This thread alone has 250+ posts--and there are at least four threads on the Suggestions board--most of them whining by cheaters and exploiters that this one particular exploit got shut down.
As I said before, this level of hysteria, this volume of whining, would not happen if there were a reasonable alternative. People would move on to one of the other methods of cheating instead of screeching like harpies that this exploit got shut down.
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Exaggerate much?
lmao
50 Heroes:
Inv/EM, Ice/Device, Inv/Fire, Fire/EM, Fire/Kin, Ill/Rad, Grav/Storm, Spines/Regen, DM/SR
50 Villains:
EM/Regen
Founding member of Old School, Triumph
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People don't whine if they have a remedy at hand to their situation. They don't cry about something being "unfair" if they could just move on and do it in another mission.
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Again, you overlook that some people will complain that a change is unfair, ill considered, intrusive, etc. because they consider it to be wrong.
Not because they do it themselves. Not because they lost an ability to exploit a feature. But because the intervention by authority was wrong.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
Read his points. He DID answer your question.
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Wolves had a number of advantages that made them the easiest mob to herd:
1. No ranged attack. Herding melee-only mobs is laughably easy.
2. No mez attacks, no trump-card attacks like psi or end drain.
3. They run fast, so it's feasible to pull an entire map.
Even after #1 and #2 got taken away, reason #3 is a really good reason to herd wolves. People who haven't tried herding probably don't realize just how tedious it is to herd things that move at normal speed.
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I got a surprise timed wolf mission yesterday, did it with my tank and a blaster and tried a little herding. Wow. These werewolves are by far the easiest enemy I have tried to herd. I can aggro 5 groups, then stand around a corner untill they all bunch up, taunt, then go aggro a few more and repeat. This is with my rather clumsy-moving teleporting stone tank. All other foes are much slower, and lose interest and go home halfway.
I dont think it will, should, or was intended to stop all powerleveling and such. But perhaps break up the supposed wolfherding craze.
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There are a bunch of fallacies with the pro-exploiters' logic here:
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First and foremost you assumed that I am a pro-exploiter. I have to admit I did take part of this exploit once, but I only did it once and felt like it was wrong so I quit the team, and have never did it again. I am not a pro-exploiter and have turned down attempts since this first act of indiscretion. Besides I did not ever say that this issue should not be taken care of. In fact I suggested that another way to fix this exploit can be found.
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Logical Fallacy #1: "AV missions shouldn't be timed."
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How is my statement about AVs should not be in a timed mission logically false, when I am referring to all AV missions not just the one that is currently in discussion, but all the ones that were previously timed. There is nothing false with this statement. I dont want to feel rushed when I go up against one. I like to come up with a plan of attack and follow it. I try to find out info on the AV and build a team from a strategy.
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Logical Fallacy #2: "Now people won't have a chance to get the Portal Jockey badge."
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I never said that someone would never get the chance to get the portal Jockey badge. So this fallacy is not even prudent in your rebuttal to my previous post. Though it does make it a little more of a nuisance to get it. I totally agree with you that if someone is recycling the mission they are not interested in getting badges.
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Logical Fallacy #3: "Powerlevelers who herd can just use other missions."
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How can this be false? Albeit you dont hear of other missions being exploited in this way, but what is stopping them from doing so? Absolutely nothing. Other mission can be herded. Are they? I have no idea. So I cant say they are, but no one can say they are not. All I know is that if they are this should be stopped too.
So now that everyone know that I am not a pro-exploiter let me try again. Do not put any AVs in timed mission, even the ones that are already in timed missions. Any outdoor instance mission is going to subject to possible, not definite but possible, herding. Lets find some other way to close all the possible herding exploit loopholes. I suggested that maybe giving mobs some kind of resistance to herding by only allowing them to chase a target a fixed radius from there spawn point. Once they are outside of the radius they loose interest in their target and return to their spawn point. Is this the best solution? Probably not, but is putting the missions on a timer the best solution, probably not also.
I can tell you that one of the missions we used to exploit was the Infernal AV mission. Boatloads of behemoths come out of those portals and they can be dispatched pretty easily. Just get a tank to tie up Infernal, and you are good to go. I'm not going to tell folks all of the ones I have seen used, but there are many. Sometimes it is just villians we like to fight. Sometimes we farm them for badges (carnies, monkeys, zeus titans, fakes, etc.) or for specific level and origin enhances. As a post said earlier the exploits are many and varied. However does that make them all wrong? In the eyes of some, yes. Others, no. This is like a debate on religion or politics, no one is wrong, no one is right, but everyone has some opinion. Use your opinion to shape your gameplay.
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Use your opinion to shape your gameplay.
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I completely agree here, key word being "your". And around we go again...back to, don't tell me what's fun and un-fun. My opinion shapes my gameplay and someone elses shapes theirs, but the Dev's are trying to shape it for us.
This is the point that so many are trying to get across and that so many can't understand. This has NOTHING to do with herding or powerleveling, but that we want to play the game that way we want....where does it stop..................
Lucid_Liberty, the behemoths that come out of the portal in the Infernal ArchVillain mission are worth exactly 0 XP apiece. I was paying attention one of the last times I did it and watched as I got exactly 0 when I Zapped one of the minions that popped through.
But, hey, if you wanna think you're earning mad XP doing it, go right ahead.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
I don't have any time today, and quite frankly the investment in time for replies cuts into my game time, so I'll be exceptionally brief.
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The question is at what point do you limit teaming to restrict powerleveling. In my opinion the current setup of CoH is good.
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That's a good question. Even if you limit it to 5 levels, you can still be 5 levels below someone who is hunting +5's and still make great XP. So a lvl 30 can still hang out in the docks of PI, or 45 in a portal mission, and still get insane XP from the work of a single lvl 50 fire tanker. It minimizes the level range but still allows for the majority of people to powerlevel.
I come from EQ where outside of deliberate bugs you couldn't really powerlevel effectively, and DAOC where you had to work more for your level. Here you can be -9 and do absolutely nothing, ever, to get XP. And it won't slow the group down any.
To me that's a problem. This content is trivialized more than it needs to be. We have people who on their first characters powerlevel to endgame, see few missions, and complain the content is boring. We see people who do most of the missions once, and then never again. I'd hate to imagine that mentality in an FPS shooter where you play one round on a map and never want to go there again, regardless of circumstances.
I know one person who rolled his first character, a fire tanker, was powerlevelled to 22, and has since done most of his missions since then. When he hits 50 he's going to cancel his account. He, for all intents and purposes, is playing this game on easy mode (even though it's now set to Unyielding) and outside of Malta is able to see the content once, and that's all he wants to do. I just think that sort of mentality is easy to have when you play the game without any challenge.
For me, I spent months cutting my teeth on missions playing squishies, and no powerlevelling. I love the game because of it. I don't get board because I am challenged by the game. I make the game challenging.
Sigh, spent too much time. Gotta run take care!
Since the behomth portals were exploited they got their xp adjusted.
He is refering to the exploit days of the portals not as they are now.
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. These missions are one hell of a rush 
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Really frentic, hard and exciting ways to gain even boatloads of XP are fine. Risk and reward.
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I'm guessing you never ran the wolf mission did you? This is the only mission I've been on that actually was a challange and has caused me to die
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This is a reply to an ancient part of this thread, but ... did you do the mission? Were you the resident tank? I wasn't. It was boring as hell. I hovered around and gained XP.
In case you don't know the vogue version of this included exclusively a Tanker and maybe some buffers for him, one or more Devices Blasters laying boatloads of mines in garbage hods, and then XP leeches. Unless maybe you're the tank, that was as exciting as watching paint dry.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA