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These were pre-I3 numbers. Defender primaries got a boost in I3 so if we account for the 25% boost at I3 we get 25% / 1.25 = 20% for deflection, and 18.75% / 1.25 = 15% for dispersion (These would be the numbers for controllers now).
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I don't remember reading anything in the issue 3 notes about a boost to defender primaries and nothing like that was on the test server as far as I know. Do you have a link for any of that info?
As an Ice tank, this has me worried. After finally getting some fixes to the primary power set (stackable armor and sleep protection), I thought we were finally fixed. Now, I get to wait and see how this all works out. 
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
This a new damage type? I don't have any resistances for that on my invulerability tanker so he is useless now. 
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Actually, I think the best way would be for each type of damage to be resolves seperatly against each defense type, even from within the same attack. For example, if a fire sword hit stacked Ice armor, the leathal PORTION of that attack would be calculated agaist Frozen Armor, while the fire PORTION of the attack would be calculated against the Wet Ice defense. The results would be that for some attacks that do multiple damage types, sometimes, none of the damage would "hit", all of the damage would "hit", or only certain TYPES of the damage would hit.
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Do you realize that doing it that way would increase the total damage you take over time?
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Actually, I think the best way would be for each type of damage to be resolves seperatly against each defense type, even from within the same attack. For example, if a fire sword hit stacked Ice armor, the leathal PORTION of that attack would be calculated agaist Frozen Armor, while the fire PORTION of the attack would be calculated against the Wet Ice defense. The results would be that for some attacks that do multiple damage types, sometimes, none of the damage would "hit", all of the damage would "hit", or only certain TYPES of the damage would hit.
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Do you realize that doing it that way would increase the total damage you take over time?
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Not if the armors truly stacked, taking the total defense instead of the highest one.
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Actually, I think the best way would be for each type of damage to be resolves seperatly against each defense type, even from within the same attack. For example, if a fire sword hit stacked Ice armor, the leathal PORTION of that attack would be calculated agaist Frozen Armor, while the fire PORTION of the attack would be calculated against the Wet Ice defense. The results would be that for some attacks that do multiple damage types, sometimes, none of the damage would "hit", all of the damage would "hit", or only certain TYPES of the damage would hit.
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I always thought you had a to-hit roll for each damage type against each defense, but if either damage type was blocked, the whole attack would be blocked.
This makes the most sense to me, but the bug fix is close enough -- since the highest defense is most likely to stop the attack anyway.
Stacking armor is still useful for ice tanks, because in any given group different mobs will be doing different 1-type damage attacks, as well as mixed attacks. Think of CoTs, where some attacks are pure fire, some pure lethal, some pure negative energy (Death Mages), etc. Stacking armors will up your defense greatly for each single-damage attack.
Although in general, if you have to choose which armor to slot up, I'd slot Frozen Armor first and stack it with Wet Ice. Biggest bang for the buck, since many, many attacks are either pure smashing/lethal or a combo including one of those.
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Actually, I think the best way would be for each type of damage to be resolves seperatly against each defense type, even from within the same attack. For example, if a fire sword hit stacked Ice armor, the leathal PORTION of that attack would be calculated agaist Frozen Armor, while the fire PORTION of the attack would be calculated against the Wet Ice defense. The results would be that for some attacks that do multiple damage types, sometimes, none of the damage would "hit", all of the damage would "hit", or only certain TYPES of the damage would hit.
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Do you realize that doing it that way would increase the total damage you take over time?
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Not if the armors truly stacked, taking the total defense instead of the highest one.
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But that isn't what I was replying to, I was talking about applying each defense individually against the damage types, like in the quote that I had as part of my response.
In regards to the armor stacking, Frozen + Wet Ice + EA vs Smash/Lethal, Glacial + Wet Ice + EA vs Energy/Negative, Wet Ice + EA vs Fire/Cold (+resists from Frozen/Glacial). The only thing you aren't getting is benefit from both Frozen and Glacial vs attacks that do Smashing + Energy, nor is Wet Ice doubly effective vs dual-type damage.
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Yeah, but this basically screws Ice Tankers, no have almost NO resistance, and all defense. Now they have MUCH less defense because their stacked armors will not help them. 
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Well, that's not entirely true. You're still getting the benefit of the "higher of the two" DEFs. You're lucky they aren't averaged, or worse, taking the "lower of the two".
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, still.
Its been hosing certain toons forever and benefitting others. Now that its hurting some others, the fix "sucks". Not from where I'm sitting, I assure you.
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What the hell kind of lame answer is that? Fix one, screw the other? Are you always that myopic? It's pretty obvious you've never played an ice tanker, so I don't know why you bothered to reply. How does the higher of the two equate to "stacking armors" which is what the Devs JUST rolled out? Since SO many attacks do smashing/leathal, in addition to other damage types, why not just leave up FA, which has a higher defense that the other armor sets? If the lower defense rating are simply ignored, they serve NO purpose at all, except to drain end faster.
Try to look beyond the end of your own nose the next time you post.
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Rude and ignorant. Would you like a clue to go with your supply of Ad Homs??
Stacking armors never meant that your DEF from two different powers would ADD together. It meant that you could run two or more armor toggles at the same time, when you could not previously.
How does this screw you?
Let say you have 3 different armors (no clue if these are real)
SMash/Lethal
Energy/Fire
Cold
Lets say each adds +35 DEF to those attack types. Prior to stacking armors, you could have ONE of these running at a time. You'd get the bonus against a Smashing attack, but not Cold, for instance.
Now, you can run all three and have a DEF bonus against them all. What you can't do is this:
A combined SMASHING/COLD attack will no longer add your SMASHING DEF and COLD DEF together for purposes of determining your total defense. You will get the higher of the two. Before Stacking Armors, you'd only have gotten one or the other anyway, as you could only run one at a time (except if an armor was smash/cold specific)
Your complaint would be like my Dark Armor scrapper saying:
Stacking armors SUCKS. Now I can run all three +RES toggles simultaneously, but if I take a smashing/fire attack, my +RES against them isn't ADDED together, and that SUCKS!!!!! Stacking armor SUCKS!!!!!! Down with the DEVS!!!!!
The only reason you expected them to work that way is that DEF vs. combined damage types was BROKEN, and has been since Pre-I2.
As for "helping someone and screwing someone else"....
That's what was happening before, That is not what's happening now.
Before the fix, those who were hurt were hurt by a BUG and those that were helped were helped by a BUG.
NOW, those who are "helped" are actually only "normalized", while those who are "hurt" are actually only "normalized".
The person who no longer benefits from the BUG certainly feels like they're getting screwed, but they are not.
Benefiting from a bug, whether you know about it or not, is not guaranteed to last forever.
Your Ice Armors are now working like they are supposed to work. I feel for you if your toon is now hosed, maybe the free respec would help?
The end of my nose has little to do with it. I don't have a DM scrapper and my ENG blaster is in mothballs (due to the acc bug, actually).
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These were pre-I3 numbers. Defender primaries got a boost in I3 so if we account for the 25% boost at I3 we get 25% / 1.25 = 20% for deflection, and 18.75% / 1.25 = 15% for dispersion (These would be the numbers for controllers now). [ QUOTE ]
I don't remember reading anything in the issue 3 notes about a boost to defender primaries and nothing like that was on the test server as far as I know. Do you have a link for any of that info?
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Oops, it looks like you got me on this one. I was looking at the Updates link earlier and remembered the item about the increase of defender effectiveness to Transfusion, Kinetics, etc in there. I had remembered the 25% and defender primaries, but forgotten it was only for specific powers, lol.
And those are such nice round numbers, too...
Enough whining from the ice tankers, you guys still have great defense and hundreds if not thousands of hitpoints, plus ice slick and a handful of other powers that don't depend on defense.
Adding defense is ALL that force field does(well that and 4 knockback powers that many mobs are resistant to). We have one power to protect ourselves and dying in one shot through that isn't uncommon. Force Field defenders just took a major shot to the pants, and after all the attention tankers and scrappers have been getting lately you are still complaining.
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Actually, I think the best way would be for each type of damage to be resolves seperatly against each defense type, even from within the same attack. For example, if a fire sword hit stacked Ice armor, the leathal PORTION of that attack would be calculated agaist Frozen Armor, while the fire PORTION of the attack would be calculated against the Wet Ice defense. The results would be that for some attacks that do multiple damage types, sometimes, none of the damage would "hit", all of the damage would "hit", or only certain TYPES of the damage would hit.
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I always thought you had a to-hit roll for each damage type against each defense, but if either damage type was blocked, the whole attack would be blocked.
This makes the most sense to me, but the bug fix is close enough -- since the highest defense is most likely to stop the attack anyway.
Stacking armor is still useful for ice tanks, because in any given group different mobs will be doing different 1-type damage attacks, as well as mixed attacks. Think of CoTs, where some attacks are pure fire, some pure lethal, some pure negative energy (Death Mages), etc. Stacking armors will up your defense greatly for each single-damage attack.
Although in general, if you have to choose which armor to slot up, I'd slot Frozen Armor first and stack it with Wet Ice. Biggest bang for the buck, since many, many attacks are either pure smashing/lethal or a combo including one of those.
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C'MON PEOPLE! This does not address the issue i'm bringing up. What about attacks that do multiple damage types??????
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Stacking armors never meant that your DEF from two different powers would ADD together. It meant that you could run two or more armor toggles at the same time, when you could not previously.
How does this screw you?
Let say you have 3 different armors (no clue if these are real)
SMash/Lethal
Energy/Fire
Cold
Lets say each adds +35 DEF to those attack types. Prior to stacking armors, you could have ONE of these running at a time. You'd get the bonus against a Smashing attack, but not Cold, for instance.
Now, you can run all three and have a DEF bonus against them all. What you can't do is this:
A combined SMASHING/COLD attack will no longer add your SMASHING DEF and COLD DEF together for purposes of determining your total defense. You will get the higher of the two. Before Stacking Armors, you'd only have gotten one or the other anyway, as you could only run one at a time (except if an armor was smash/cold specific)
Your complaint would be like my Dark Armor scrapper saying:
Stacking armors SUCKS. Now I can run all three +RES toggles simultaneously, but if I take a smashing/fire attack, my +RES against them isn't ADDED together, and that SUCKS!!!!! Stacking armor SUCKS!!!!!! Down with the DEVS!!!!!
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Well, resistances do still stack against mixed damage type attacks. You still get your full resistances to each component of the attack, mixed or not. Defenses no longer work that way. Now a hero with both lethal and cold defense has no better protection from a mixed attack than a person with just lethal defense, despite using a power designed to protect against cold attacks. Since most single type attacks are ranged, followed quickly by most mobs coming into hth where they have mixed damage, it makes use of the stackability situational, whereas resistance is useful in both of these situations. A more appropriate analogy might be that if you had that dark scrapper hit by fire/lethal attack, you now only get to use the highest resistance to the attack, not both. You'd get to use either lethal or fire resistance, whichever is higher, never both. This is what is happening to defense. Not very desirable.
I'd even be for an attenuated secondary defense against mixed attacks (like a fraction of the value of the lesser defense added to the value of the greater defense), just to make a person with defense to both damage types better than someone with defense to only one of the attack's damage type.
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A more appropriate analogy might be that if you had that dark scrapper hit by fire/lethal attack, you now only get to use the highest resistance to the attack, not both. You'd get to use either lethal or fire resistance, whichever is higher, never both. This is what is happening to defense. Not very desirable.
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This isn't the same scenario because a single attack either hits or misses. If you have 50% resistance to smash, and 25% resistance to energy and you get hit my a Crey Power tank's energy blast, you take 50% of the smash damage and 75% of the energy damage which is how it should be.
If you have 50% defense against smash, and 25% energy, under the previous system you'd have 75% defense against the attack which equates to 75% defense against smashing and 75% defense against energy since the entire attack either hits or misses.
In the current system, you get the higher of the two numbers (50%) against the entire attack so you effectively get 50% defense vs. Smash, and 50% defense vs. energy. It's not as desirable as before, but this seems to make a lot more sense.
If they were to consider the single attack as two separate attacks, then you'd get 50% defense against the smash component, and 25% defense against the energy component. This you definitely don't want to happen.
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Fire armor does not give Defense. It gives damage resistance. Resistance reduces the amount of damage you take, and defense reduces the chance you can get hit.
Let say you had a power that gave you 50% damage resistance to fire and 10% damage resistance to lethal. Now lets say you got hit with a Fire Sword (lethal and fire damage) for 100 points of fire and 100 points of lethal damage. You would only take 50 points of Fire damage and 90 points of Lethal damage.
(For the record, the Tanker power, Fire Shield, gives a base 30% damage resistance to smashing, lethal, fire, and 10% resistance to cold (no defense.))
Defense, however, reduces your change to get hit (it does not reduce damage). Lets say a FF defender put a Deflection Shield on you and you were also in his Dispersion bubble (lets say un-enhanced for this example). The Deflection Shield would give you 25% Defense to Lethal and Smashing attacks and the Dispersion bubble would give you 18.75% Defense to Lethal, Smashing, Fire, Cold, Energy and Negative Energy Attacks. You would thus have a total of 43.75% defense to Lethal and Smashing. Now lets say you were attacked with that Fire sword. A fire sword is a lethal and a fire attack. You have 43.75% defense to Lethal, and 18.75% defense to fire. Your defense to Lethal is greater, so that is the defense that matters. The Fire Swords chance to hit will be reduced by 43.75%. However, if you get hit, you take dull damage.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but when I take damage it's never dull 
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Yeah, but this basically screws Ice Tankers, no have almost NO resistance, and all defense. Now they have MUCH less defense because their stacked armors will not help them.
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Well, that's not entirely true. You're still getting the benefit of the "higher of the two" DEFs. You're lucky they aren't averaged, or worse, taking the "lower of the two".
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, still.
Its been hosing certain toons forever and benefitting others. Now that its hurting some others, the fix "sucks". Not from where I'm sitting, I assure you.
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What the hell kind of lame answer is that? Fix one, screw the other? Are you always that myopic? It's pretty obvious you've never played an ice tanker, so I don't know why you bothered to reply. How does the higher of the two equate to "stacking armors" which is what the Devs JUST rolled out? Since SO many attacks do smashing/leathal, in addition to other damage types, why not just leave up FA, which has a higher defense that the other armor sets? If the lower defense rating are simply ignored, they serve NO purpose at all, except to drain end faster.
Try to look beyond the end of your own nose the next time you post.
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Myopic?
Defense still stacks. If you have defense to fire and lethal, you dont get double defense to a fire sword and regular defense to a regular swords and fire blasts (that is not fair to the guy with the fire sword, nor is that system fair to Dark scrappers, or energy blasters). It does mean you get the chance to apply the higher of the 2 values.
The lower defense values are not ignored. If you have 30% defense to lethal, and 20% defense to fire, you get 30% defense to a fire sword (the higher of the 2). But you still get 20% defense to a fire only attack like a fire blast. Of course the lower one serves a purpose. And if you get an Insulation Shield put on you, your Fire defense may go to about 40%, so now you get 40% defense to a fire sword (the new higher of the 2), and 30% defense to a broadsword.
/em Goes to google Myopic 
This space is intentionally left blank.
myopic is shortsightedness
Yes! I'm NORMAL! What are you looking at freak!?
The way I see the problem is resists do stack, defense now does not. That is how ice tankers got nerfed. If invuln runs RPD and RE they get to resist both sides of the attack. But if I run 2 armors I get to defend against one. While Geko's change sounds fair to players with dual damage type attacks it is a lowering of effectiveness for typed defense powers.
SIDE NOTE
My thought: keep this change, give Energy Absorption Psi defense b/c we have nothing even close to Fire's damage to make up for our one sided armors like they get, stone and invuln get defense AND resist. Ice and Fire get defense and resist respectively as their emphasis. (woohoo.... I can cap cold resist....) To make up for this Fire gets tons of damage while Ice gets.... icicles and chilling embrace. 
At the very least the uber defense set should have defense to everything in the game (the lucky strike is our hole, so are autohits [yes we can be killed by a group of swarms], and acc raising/defense lowering powers). Yes Ice does pretty well but the overall inequity just got worse. Let us continue down the path of the CoH Mantra: Fire melts Ice so all Ice sets should be lesser on one level or another. (blizzard, jack frost, defense only)
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The way I see the problem is resists do stack, defense now does not.
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If you have 40% Lethal defense, and 20% fire defense, and are hit by a fire/lethal attack, you get the higher of the two applied: you get 40% defense, even if the attack is 99% fire damage and 1% lethal.
If you have 40% lethal resistance and 20% fire resistance... Each component is modified by the appropriate amount.
Fire Sword is 62.12% fire. If you get hit for a 100 damage fire sword attack from an even con minion, the defense character mentioned has a 10% chance to get hit-- therefore taking 10% damage over time, which averages to 10 damage per attack.
The resistance character has a 40% resistance to 37.88 damage, and a 20% resistance to 62.12 damage. When he gets hit, he takes .6 * 37.88 + .8 * 62.12 = 72.42 damage.
He also has a 50% chance to get hit, so he takes half of that over time, or 36.212 damage per attack.
So, the resistance character is taking 3.6 times the damage the defense character is.
Resistance of the same type stacks just the same as defense of the same type stacks, but you get to pick the higher defense type when you are hit by a dual typed attack. This is an advantage over resistance, NOT a drawback.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Heheh...
Now, thanks to that typo, people will be asking if Unyielding gives resistances to Dull damage.
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Currently listening to Devo's Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo
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Trust me it doesn't.
Plus Devo? Man you must be as old as me!
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The way I see the problem is resists do stack, defense now does not. That is how ice tankers got nerfed.
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Re-read Geko's reply .. the above is simply NOT true.
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Defense still stacks. If you have defense to fire and lethal, you dont get double defense to a fire sword and regular defense to a regular swords and fire blasts (that is not fair to the guy with the fire sword, nor is that system fair to Dark scrappers, or energy blasters). It does mean you get the chance to apply the higher of the 2 values.
The lower defense values are not ignored. If you have 30% defense to lethal, and 20% defense to fire, you get 30% defense to a fire sword (the higher of the 2). But you still get 20% defense to a fire only attack like a fire blast. Of course the lower one serves a purpose. And if you get an Insulation Shield put on you, your Fire defense may go to about 40%, so now you get 40% defense to a fire sword (the new higher of the 2), and 30% defense to a broadsword.
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My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
I think Geko forgot to explain that multiple armors do stack still...
If Frozen Armor gives 30% Defense to Smash/Lethal, and Wet Ice gives 15% Defense to all but Psionics, and Glacial Armor gives 30% Def to Energy/Neg Energy... you would get this:
Frozen Armor and Wet Ice on:
- 45% Def Smash/Lethal
- 15% Def everything else but Psionics
Wet Ice and Glacial Armor on:
- 45% Def Energy/Neg Energy
- 15% DEf everything else but Psionics
All three armors on:
- 45% Smash/Lethal
- 45% Energy/Neg Energy
- 15% Def everything else but Psionics
The only thing that does not stack any more is multiple damage types. For example...
Fire sword does both Lethal and Fire. Your defense only needs to block one to block the whole attack...
In the old system, with all the armors on, you would get a 60% Def against this attack (45% + 15%). Under the new system, you only get 45% because it's higher.
Now, if you were hit with Fire Breath, which is only a fire attack, you would only get 15% Def against it.
Make sense?
ummm... shouldn't ALL Ice tankers take Toughness?
that'll give you resists to all smash/leathal + whatevers AND mega defense too.
best of both worlds.
The fact that so many attacks do lethal or smashing in addition to the other forms of damage make those others often superfluous. Stone Armor people learned in beta that they didn't really have to take anything but Stone and Mineral armor until they got to Granite.
Scorus
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Yeah, but this basically screws Ice Tankers, no have almost NO resistance, and all defense. Now they have MUCH less defense because their stacked armors will not help them.
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Stacked armors still help. Similar defense types will stack with each other. For example, Wet Ice give defense to all types. Stack Frozen armor on top of that and your Smash/Lethal defense will be your Wet Ice + your Frozen Armor. The only downside is that you won't be getting stacking different defense types together versus a single attack.
Side note: I have a lvl 16 Ice tank alt.