Jesterman, unless you didn't slot your bubbles they work fine. Trust me - I was playing bubbled last night. Bubbles are still basically god mode against everything but Psionics.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah, but this basically screws Ice Tankers, no have almost NO resistance, and all defense. Now they have MUCH less defense because their stacked armors will not help them.
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Well, that's not entirely true. You're still getting the benefit of the "higher of the two" DEFs. You're lucky they aren't averaged, or worse, taking the "lower of the two".
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, still.
Its been hosing certain toons forever and benefitting others. Now that its hurting some others, the fix "sucks". Not from where I'm sitting, I assure you.
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What the hell kind of lame answer is that? Fix one, screw the other? Are you always that myopic? It's pretty obvious you've never played an ice tanker, so I don't know why you bothered to reply. How does the higher of the two equate to "stacking armors" which is what the Devs JUST rolled out? Since SO many attacks do smashing/leathal, in addition to other damage types, why not just leave up FA, which has a higher defense that the other armor sets? If the lower defense rating are simply ignored, they serve NO purpose at all, except to drain end faster.
Try to look beyond the end of your own nose the next time you post.
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Myopic?
Defense still stacks. If you have defense to fire and lethal, you dont get double defense to a fire sword and regular defense to a regular swords and fire blasts (that is not fair to the guy with the fire sword, nor is that system fair to Dark scrappers, or energy blasters). It does mean you get the chance to apply the higher of the 2 values.
The lower defense values are not ignored. If you have 30% defense to lethal, and 20% defense to fire, you get 30% defense to a fire sword (the higher of the 2). But you still get 20% defense to a fire only attack like a fire blast. Of course the lower one serves a purpose. And if you get an Insulation Shield put on you, your Fire defense may go to about 40%, so now you get 40% defense to a fire sword (the new higher of the 2), and 30% defense to a broadsword.
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I've been validated by GEKO
I can die happy now.
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So, to confirm, hopefully by Geko, no defenses stack if they are against the same type?
So, picking up CJ and haste (both non-slotted for def), you still only have 5% defense? Add in stealth and that defense is used instead of CJ and haste, not in addition to?
As a better example, as an illusion controller, slotting out maneuvers and group invisibility nets you nothing, as only the higher value will be used?
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No. Multiple sources of DEF against the same type of damage are cumulative.
The issue is two part
1) there was a bug that allows Defenses that applied to different damage types (smashing/lethal, for instance) to be ADDED together against any attack that did Smashing/Lethal damage. This made DM and ENG (and a few others) have a very hard time hitting certain badguys (Forcefields).
This bug was benefitting ForceField Defenders.
2) Stacking armors come along and now folks like ICE, Stone and Dark can run more than one armor at a time. In the case of Stone and Dark, that meant you could have a wider range of +RES up at once. In the case of ICE, you got a wider range of +DEF.
The bug and stacking armors combined to offer ICE an un-anticipated boost. If they were running armors that offer , for example, Smashing and Fire +DEF, and were attacked by a Smashing/Fire attack, the +DEF from each armor was added together before being applied to the incoming attack.
The same was not true for Stone/Dark. +RES from multiple armors would be applied appropriately to each of the incoming damage types. The two +RES were not added together and then applied to the total incoming damage.
The BUG was fixed and now ICE is returned to "the way its supposed to work". The false argument offered by several folks here is that "Our armors don't stack now".
They do stack per design, you can run more than one at a time for a WIDER range of +DEF or +RES. You cannot, and were never supposed to, run more than one at a time for a DEEPER +DEF or +RES vs. attacks of multiple-damage types.
If you have two armors that apply to the SAME damage types (Negative from Dark Embrace and Murky Cloud both), those +RES (or +DEF for ICE) will add up.
I suppose there was some confusion on what "STACKING armors" meant. It would have been better if they had been called "Concurrent Armors" or "Simultaneous Armors" or "No longer Exclusive Armors"
Regardless of any possible name confusion, the armors DO stack, if the +DEF or +RES is of the same type.
CJ and HASTEN combine to offer +10 DEF against the attacks which they cover.
Hopefully, I was coherent in my explanation.
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Resistance of the same type stacks just the same as defense of the same type stacks, but you get to pick the higher defense type when you are hit by a dual typed attack. This is an advantage over resistance, NOT a drawback.
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Preach on brother rat!!! You sir, get pie.
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I understand what your saying, but the point is that a single defense isn't as good as a stacking defense, which is what Ice Armor did.
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Um... duh?
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Um... DUH! You still don't seem to get the point.
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Look, the deal is... it was never supposed to do that.
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One of my points is that I have never seen anywhere that Ice Armor was NOT supposed to work like that. Have you seen anywhere that it states that explicitly? About Ice Armor?
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Really. It's been screwing over Dark Melee for ages and they've been begging for a fix for months that I know of.
And there was a great cheer among them when geko recently posted that the bug did indeed exist and they were fixing it.
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NOW we're getting to the issue I have with your posts. I'm not talking about dark scrappers am I? NO! I never have. Why should I give a rat's [censored] about how the previous situation effected dark scrappers, when it's obvious you don't give one rat's [censored] about how it effects Ice Tankers? Fixing one problem is a good thing, screwing something else up in the process is NOT a good thing. Please understand that before you respond again. It's not just about scrappers, so STOP bringing them up. I know they've been crying about the problem for months, I don't want to have to go through the same thing, just because you did, and now it's somehow "Ice Tankers" turn to get bent over.
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What you had here was a really light version of the old smoke grenade bug, except in that case something was 1000% as effective as it should have been instead of the 150-200% Ice (and Dark Miasma) has been getting. No, I don't understand why things like this take quite so long to find and fix, but they do. There is no consolation prize for this. Your power was broken to your benefit and they fixed it.
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Say's who? Where? Specifically? With the smoke grenade issue, the situation was discussed for MONTHS, with several posts from devs and states himself. I challenge you to find a post about this anywere on the boards as pertaining to Ice Tankers. There WAS NO discussion of it. And, news flash, IT'S NOT MY JOB. Supposedly, Cryptic and NCSoft have a whole room of trained monkeys that QA all these changes. That's why they occur at GLACIAL rates. They keep blathering on about all the quality control. So where was it? No communication, no posts about the upcoming effect it would have. This is not some minor thing, some side power effect. We're talking about how the most important powers in a primary power pool work. I know it means squat to a scrapper, but it's of the utmost importance to a Tanker. Just check out the storm on the tanker board about the change to perma-unstoppable.
Where was the QA on this issue? Where was the communication?
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Note my sig - I get this "nerf" on one my Dark/Dark Defender. I also get the fix on my Ice Blaster, my EM Tanker, and my Dark Melee Scrapper.
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Dude, you lost me there. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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If this screws Ice Tankers then put this energy into looking for ways of fixing Ice Tankers, not wishing for the broken mechanics back.
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This is the biggest clue that you don't seem to have ANY CLUE as to what I'm talking about. Exactly WHERE did I advocate changing the mechanics back to the way they were?
Exactly, nowhere.
You need to put your little scrapper paranoia aside. I'm not advocating going back, I'm advocating fixing the unintended, or at the very least, the uncommunicated change that has a dramatic effect on Ice Tankers abilities. Again, this isn't smoke grenade. This isn't about how blasters take damage, this is about how TANKERS take damage, their primary role in the game. Smoke grenade is a secondary power set. Ice Armor is a primary power set. The method of the "fix" for the dark scrappers was never discussed in terms of how it would effect other classes, at least to my knowledge. If it was, and I missed it, please post a SPECIFIC link to the SPECIFIC post discussing it. Do NOT simply point to thread on the scrapper board talking about the issue.
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A more appropriate analogy might be that if you had that dark scrapper hit by fire/lethal attack, you now only get to use the highest resistance to the attack, not both. You'd get to use either lethal or fire resistance, whichever is higher, never both. This is what is happening to defense. Not very desirable.
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I'll take it. Where do I sign up?? You're saying that ONLY getting to use your HIGHER RES against two different damage types is a PROBLEM???
Let me try to illustrate the back-aassword-ness of your post.
My Dark Armor scrapper gets 22.5 Smashing/Lethal 15% Neg from Dark Embrace.
Someone hits me with a 50% Smash, 50% Neg attack. Each component is doing 50 HPs.
Under the actual way it works rules, I take (.785*50) + (.85*50) = 81.75 damage.
Under the system you posted as "not desirable", I take (.785*100) = 78.5 damage.
Not desirable, eh? Like I said, let me know where I can sign up and I'll be there with bells on.
The bigger the gap between my "higher RES" and my "lower RES", the better this is.
DA/Stone have NEVER gotten to ADD the two together against multiple-damage type attacks, stacking armors or no stacking armors. ICE got to do this with their +DEF, as did FF
With GEKO handing out [Censored] to the "Ice is getting screwed" crowd, you'd think they'd accept the incorrectness of their position.
If being pointedly corrected by a DEV doesn't alter your misconceptions of the facts, I guess I should stop wasting my valuable time.
Edited: Maybe you meant that I only get to use the higher +RES against its appropriate damage type, and the other damage comes through completely un-resisted??? That is undesirable. However, its a strawman arguement.
There is only one TOHIT roll with an attack, regardless of how many damage types it does. Your comparison is only valid if multiple-damage type attacks had individual TOHIT rolls for each portion of their damage. That hardly makes any sense.
I swing at your exposed throat with a flaming club. It does smashing/lethal. I hit with the smashing damage, crushing your windpipe, ensuring a swift and painful death without a trach. I roll to see if the fire hits you, somehow managing to do no damage from the fire whatsoever.
Attacks with multiple-damage types have a single, unified TOHIT roll for a simple reason: ITS ONE ATTACK.
Applicable RES works separately on each damage type in an attack because there are multiple damage types coming in. If I got to apply my highest +RES across the entire attack, even better for me.
No Uberguy, I did not in any way say nerf SR. If you read any of my old posts I said invuln scrappers weren't at all needing a nerf. Especially beyond the non-perma unstop. But I am saying Ice is gimped in comparison to SR. The defense to psionics is really my only problem with SR being better off. I'm not saying SR needs any kind of a nerf but I am saying it is ridiculous that a scrapper can out tank a tank using similarly set up powers. What does Ice armor get that makes it better at tanking than SR? (I know for a fact that Chilling Embrace doesn't let me tank psionics as well as SR)
For that matter, what does Ice have to make it comparable with Fire? (since ice gets resistance only to cold, and fire gets no defense) I love my ice tank but I would like to see him get a buff to be in line with other tank sets. Statesman said that after the tanker fixes individual sets would be looked at, so please look at ice.
Lastly Solarfox, yes it is a nerf.
nerf: when a part of the game is changed in a way that players do not like. (Increasing the weight of large sewing kits was considered to be a "nerf" by many.) This term was originally used for extreme problems, such as for changes that made a class, tradeskill, etc. unusable. Due to term popularity, it is now used for any perceived detrimental change in any aspect of the game.
Smoke grenade was a bug that was fixed but the power was nerfed by this fix. I don't want the devs to feel like I don't appreciate everything they do b/c I really do. But the player community is ridiculous. How can you compare an indirect nerf due to the change of game mechanics to a power specific numerical faux pas? Besides, blasters weren't meant to have a %50 acc debuff in their secondaries. Ice tanks were meant to have good defense right? I don't want them to change it back but I do want to use the fact that they were slightly weakened to point out the already large inequity.
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The method of the "fix" for the dark scrappers was never discussed in terms of how it would effect other classes, at least to my knowledge. If it was, and I missed it, please post a SPECIFIC link to the SPECIFIC post discussing it. Do NOT simply point to thread on the scrapper board talking about the issue.
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On that point, which has some merit:
<some conjecture as to when DEVS found the real bug>
It was always assumed that the accuracy problems experienced with SM and ENG were problems with ACCURACY. The devs kept saying "its working as it is supposed to". We figured that meant "we meant for you to miss, you're getting split-damage types, which often means more damage/less resisted". It sucked, but it was an answer.
We should have taken the DEV response to mean "We looked at it and there is no bug in the ACCURACY code for those powers". They were right. There wasn't.
The BUG was in the DEFENSE code. The DEVS didn't FIND it (conjecture), until they noticed that ICE tankers were super hard to hit for certain badguys with split-damage attacks. They found that bug and realized that it was, in fact, the source of the "accuracy bug" people had been complaining about for months and months.
ICE didn't get the full benefit of this "bug" for very long. The timeframe between stacking armors and the "bug fix" is less than a month. ICE did benefit before stacking armors, but not to the same degree, the DEVS never noticed it and I don't remember folks talking about how UBER Ice tankers were 
The fix was never discussed in relation to how it might affect ICE tankers because it was a short-term exploit. They should have put something into the release notes, IMO, or a letter from STATESMAN, explaining the situation, but they correctly implemented the fix.
If you discover missing money in your bank account and it turns out that there was a mistaken deposit a month ago which was just corrected by the bank, when the bank takes the "extra money" away, you can complain, but you aren't going to get the money back. It was never yours.
The extra DEF wasn't legitimate to begin with. Returning the DEF to its intended value isn't a "NERF", although I can see how it might feel like one to an ICE who thought "Man, these stacking armors are AWESOME!!!!".
Incorrectly too awesome, I'm afraid, in the case of ICE.
If you want to make a case to the DEVS that they should allow ICE to keep the extra DEF, adding special code for them, and FF defenders, feel free. I don't think you'll get much support, but its your perogative to make the attempt.
I never said "Its ICE's fault that their DEF was working incorrectly". Its the DEVs fault, if anyone, but that doesn't mean it should remain "broken" to your advantage.
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One of my points is that I have never seen anywhere that Ice Armor was NOT supposed to work like that. Have you seen anywhere that it states that explicitly? About Ice Armor?
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Have you read any of the posts by Geko in this thread? He quite explicity explanes that the way Defense in general works was broken and a bug. Any and all AT's with defense could be effected by this bug.
This is not a Ice Tanker issue, it is an issue with the basic game mechinics. There is no need to discuss how this effects a single AT, as it was a game wide bug that effected pretty much everyone.
Is anyone else noticing posts disappearing from this thread??
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Is anyone else noticing posts disappearing from this thread??
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Yes I do too.
Once again, for no particular reason:
Fully slotted frozen or rock armor (44% smash/lethal defence), used to give 88% defence to an attack that did both smash and lethal damage (the only one I can think of is the old 5th valkyrie rockets, but there are others). Now it gives 44% defence, just as it would to a baseball bat.
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The method of the "fix" for the dark scrappers was never discussed in terms of how it would effect other classes, at least to my knowledge. If it was, and I missed it, please post a SPECIFIC link to the SPECIFIC post discussing it. Do NOT simply point to thread on the scrapper board talking about the issue.
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I can't provide a quote, but as info, here are two links
Link
Link2
In neither thread do the DEVS comment about ICE, but plenty of players made the same points you did at the time. The Devs never responded directly to them at that time.
Geko did, here, today.
If you feel ICE needs lovin', say so and let the DEVS know. If it does, it will likely get the lovin.
That lovin' shouldn't come from a BUG. I can see ICE getting some +RES to go along with the DEF they already have. Wouldn't bother me a bit.
Oh, and in reference to your mystery post which got deleted somehow, I am well aware that ICE is DEF only. Any where that I mentioned DEF and RES together, in reference to stacking armors, I was talking in general about stacking armors. I believe that if you read back through a couple posts, especially the post you took your quote from, you'll see that both before and after that quote, I specifically mentioned that ICE only gets DEF.
I really don't see how you missed it, unless you were grasping for strawmen to bolster your already defeated position.
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Once again, for no particular reason:
Fully slotted frozen or rock armor (44% smash/lethal defence), used to give 88% defence to an attack that did both smash and lethal damage (the only one I can think of is the old 5th valkyrie rockets, but there are others). Now it gives 44% defence, just as it would to a baseball bat.
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Yes, we agree. It did and now it doesn't. It was never supposed to, per the DEVS. It was only a HUGE benefit after Stacking armors, although I'm sure it helped some before.
If that's not sufficient DEF (and it certainly doesn't look like it to me), let the devs know. Maybe you'll get some RES outta the deal. I won't deny that compared to INVULN, Ice seems to get shafted pretty hard and this "fix" makes things worse in the shafted department.
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Is anyone else noticing posts disappearing from this thread??
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Yes I do too.
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I wonder if its a bug, or if posts are getting deleted by MODS. I would hope that the MODs would at least let us know that a post was deleted, as they usually do, instead of just dumping it.
One post I was going to reply to was GONE before I could finish replying.
One of mine from earlier is gone too. It wasn't over-the-line, in my opinion. Maybe the mods disagreed. I did mention that if certain whiney, juvenile posters were my kids, they'd get spanked for talking like that to people.
Looks like they're back... Or at least the ones I noticed being gone are.
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Edited: Maybe you meant that I only get to use the higher +RES against its appropriate damage type, and the other damage comes through completely un-resisted??? That is undesirable. However, its a strawman arguement.
There is only one TOHIT roll with an attack, regardless of how many damage types it does. Your comparison is only valid if multiple-damage type attacks had individual TOHIT rolls for each portion of their damage. That hardly makes any sense.
I swing at your exposed throat with a flaming club. It does smashing/lethal. I hit with the smashing damage, crushing your windpipe, ensuring a swift and painful death without a trach. I roll to see if the fire hits you, somehow managing to do no damage from the fire whatsoever.
Attacks with multiple-damage types have a single, unified TOHIT roll for a simple reason: ITS ONE ATTACK.
Applicable RES works separately on each damage type in an attack because there are multiple damage types coming in. If I got to apply my highest +RES across the entire attack, even better for me.
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This is actually what I was saying. Forget the fact that you've just brought real world logic into a discussion about super heroes 
, and the fact that I don't really know what strawman argument is , but let me explain my point. DA is fortunate to have defenses/resistances to multiple damage types in the same power. Some of us don't have that advantage. My stone tank requires a different power for protection from lethal/smash, energy/negative, fire/cold, and psi attacks. You get many wrapped up in single powers. So under the new defense rules, IF I slot up many powers with many slots, I'll get good protection from single-type damage attacks at the cost of up to 4 powers and 24 slots. Unfortunately against combo-type attacks, I now only get to use the defense for one power, making the other power choice in that combo-pack and all of its slots completely useless. There is absolutely no benefit to have the secondary defense, despite the attack being up to 50% of the overall damage type that power is designed to protect against. Instead you get no protection. This compares to a situation in which one would only get to use one of two resistances, not both. If the rules invalidated one of your powers, especially if you had to devote a whole power choice and numerous slots to gaining resistance to that damage type (instead of the pleasant combo packs DA gives), it would not seem desirable either. I'm a little disappointed that most of my secondary defenses are going to be frequently invalidated by my superior smash/lethal defense. So much so that I would never slot up my secondary defenses, and will probably get rid of them all to pick up and slot up weave. It still stacks with smash/lethal, and still provides similar protection to fire/cold, energy/negative, and psi single type attacks that it would normally take 3 powers to get. Suddenly a pool power has become more appealing than 3 of my standard powers, because it still stacks effectively.
So back to your flaming stick analogy, and pseudo-real world logic..... Let's say I am super agile (defense vs. lethal), and had some force field that surrounded me by a super-cooled layer of air (protection vs. fire). If I were shot by a fireball (fire/lethal), why would I not have an equal chance to either avoid the damage by being agile enough to dodge it, OR having the forcefield deflect it. Under the current rules, I now get no protection from my force field because I am too agile. That makes no sense. The force field is still there. It still should protect me. Instead I am only protected as well as if someone had just thrown a rock at me (lethal only). Might as well turn that force field off.... which I probably will (just burning endurance anyway).
Just get granite armor for any serious tanking, and ignore those extra armors. (unless you want to use crystal vs sappers).
As for the forcefield anology, just find a forcefield that helps you dodge lethal attacks.
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If you have 40% Lethal defense, and 20% fire defense, and are hit by a fire/lethal attack, you get the higher of the two applied: you get 40% defense, even if the attack is 99% fire damage and 1% lethal.
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I'm not sure this is really a logical way for it to be dealt with in the first place. At least I survived 32 levels with prestacking rock armor by itself for this very reason.
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Typed defense in itself isn't something I have an easy time explaining anyway. I think SR's method of handling defense is great.
Honestly, I wish they'd stayed away from the D&D style of "defense", where armor makes you harder to hit. It's especially odd to mix it with resistance. I have an Invuln Tanker friend that won't take Tough Hide or Invincibility because she doesn't want her character to be "dodgy".
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First of all, 40% resistance is equal to 20% defense, not 40% defense. The ratio is 2:1.
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I know. I didn't want to confuse him any further with the explanation for that. But thanks for preventing anyone else from suggesting that defense is too powerful. Indeed, many people would say it was the opposite:
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If this screws Ice Tankers then put this energy into looking for ways of fixing Ice Tankers, not wishing for the broken mechanics back.
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Yes. Ice Tankers getting a defense boost, or resistance added to the set is the right way to respond to this, not to ask for it to be impossible for Frozen Fists to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone again.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Just get granite armor for any serious tanking, and ignore those extra armors. (unless you want to use crystal vs sappers).
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Uhm, what about lvls 1-31? Besides, I thought the devs didn't like one power invalidating the rest of the set (i.e., perma-unstoppable)?
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As for the forcefield anology, just find a forcefield that helps you dodge lethal attacks.
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I think you missed the point, but perhaps not. You seem to agree that there is no point in stacking defenses, as the fire defense provides no benefit against mixed damage. Isolated non-lethal/smash damage types are rare enough, and generally used infrequently enough before the mobs come rushing blindly into HTH (where they become mixed damage type in combo with lethal/smashing), that taking, using, and certainly devoting slots to any of them would seem a misdirected effort. Compare this to weave, which would indeed increase my lethal defense, and still provide defense to damage of all non L/S types, as uncommon as they are. Much like provoke was previously better than taunt, now weave is better than a lot of the sub-powers in the set because it will still help in mixed damage situations.
I will explain this whole problem using zero mathematics and zero CoH terms:
Step 1:
FORGET EVERYTHING YOU KNOW.
No really. Did you do it?
Okay.
Step 2:
Imagine that you have a bunch of superpowers that protect you from harm, such as bullets and knives. A whole bunch of them.
Step 3:
Imagine that one of them is pretty good and really helps you not get hurt by bullets or knives.
Step 4:
If you activate 3 or 4 more powers like that, would you expect to be:
A) Really extra super-duper protected from bullets and knives?
Or
B) Protected exactly the same against bullets and knives?
This is the problem in the proverbial nutshell. No amount of math or "but what if the bullets are flaming" or "wait, no, what if they are ice knives" is going to change that.
It's simply counterintuitive.
Hmmm...
Does this now mean that when my energy blaster [or fire tanker, or energy tanker, dark melee scrapper etc] attacks something like a DE Guardian or other crystal type critter, that I'm going to be faced with a creature that because of its resistance to the energy part of my attack is now going to have the smashing part of that attack resisted to the same level, which kind of negates their susceptibility to smashing damage [except to purely smashing attacks], the useful element of such two part attacks?
I guess that same would be true for all two part attacks, that some situations where they where useful before, they'll now be far less useful [since this seems to suggest both parts are going to be resisted at the best level, whereas before, the damage 'spread' of these mixed attacks allowed at least part of your attack to be effective, even if the other part was mostly resisted], while all 'single type' attacks remain just as effective, what element of this change allows a mixed type attack to remain as effective a weapon [or effect] now that mixed type effects can expect to be much more heavily resisted?
Edit: [Oops, this is all about the DEF, not a resistance change, Ignore my querilous conjecture]
This change is to Defense not Resistance . If you resist something, it does less damage to you, if you defend against something it's less likely to hit you.
This has nothing to do with resistance.
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Really the only group bothered at all is Ice Armor b/c it is the only set focused on defense against a specific typed attack.
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And force fields? We have three powers in our set worth taking, no heal at all, and now our defenses don't do what they used to do. Yes it's a bug fix but it hurts us, and even more so because we are so dependent on everyone else for exp. Tanks will still survive and can easily rely on their other powers and abilities.
It's not so easy for force fielders. And we already have little enough to bring to the team for tanks/scrappers because of the last issue that remade your archetypes and powers.