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Your educated reasoning and mathematical proof has no power here!! People are mad cause their defense got lowered and they will whine about it for a while. Just gotta let it die down.
I just love reading threads like this and see a few people give accurate information, and the nay sayers NEVER respond to that person, only to the ones that have vague information and continue the "yes it is. no it isn't. yes it is." posts.
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Truer words have seldom appeared on these forums.
You get Pie.
It goes both ways. Dual-type attacks are more accurate as a result of this...which as a blaster, I appreciate (and the Dark siders much more so). Folks depending on that bug for extra DEF now feel a little discomboulated. Try it and see, I'd say.
The theological problem with defence and resistence comes from the different way they work, and what they represent. Once you're hit, you resist each type of damage seperately with the coresponding resistence type, if any. However, if you're trying to dodge an attack, you dodge it all at once, not damage type by damage type. An attack is considered one item, so it is dodged all at once, while a hit is considered a multi-event, which is resisted in parts.
Here's the following graphical example:
I set you on fire, club you over the head, stab you in the chest and spray you with acid. You would probably resist the club on the head and probably survive the stabbing, but you'll burn and disolve, because human beings have no resistence agains fire and acid. If I threw a cluster-bomb at you, which throws shrapnel, fire and acid, you'd still probably survive the shrapnel, but still burn and disolve. The same would happen if I threw 3 seperate bombs - shrapnel, iceniary and acid.
However, if I attacked you with a Burning Club of Acid Dagger, all you'd need to do is move to the side and punch me in the gut. That's what all you need to do if I just attacked you with a noremal club. However, if I had a flaming club in one hand and a acid-edge knife in the other, you'd be in rahter more trouble, because even if the club missed, I could still stab you, so you'll need to be quicker to dodge it.
This is not a flame, it's just a graphic example of how I see the difference between defence and resistence.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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myopic is shortsightedness
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Actually Myopia is a medical term used to describe someone who is near sighted, where distant objects appear blurry. There is some connection in connotation between the medical condition and shortsightedness, but the two are not the same. A near sighted person is myopic. A shortsighted person is usually just stubborn.
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The way I see the problem is resists do stack, defense now does not. That is how ice tankers got nerfed. If invuln runs RPD and RE they get to resist both sides of the attack. But if I run 2 armors I get to defend against one.
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You get to defend against both with only one armor. Sounds good to me!
Ice tanks, like my stone tank before armor stacking, can defend perfectly well against clockworks in melee with only the first armor. The energy armor only helps against clockwork ranged attacks.
Ice is probably underpowered in the late game, but this is not the reason.
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Truer words have seldom appeared on these forums.
You get Pie.
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No doubt. I gave him 5 stars for that.
Defnse and resist operate in two completely different ways. Defense makes an attack type les likely to hit and gives damage mitagation when it does. resistance is simply damage mitagation. It has no effect on to-hit.
You(UltraPrime) had me confused, until I looked beyond the Ultra in your name and saw that it wasn't Ultra_lounge having a change of heart after all.
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myopic is shortsightedness
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Actually Myopia is a medical term used to describe someone who is near sighted, where distant objects appear blurry. There is some connection in connotation between the medical condition and shortsightedness, but the two are not the same. A near sighted person is myopic. A shortsighted person is usually just stubborn.
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myopic
adj
1: unable to see distant objects clearly [syn: nearsighted] [ant: farsighted]
2: lacking foresight or scope; "a short view of the problem"; "shortsighted policies"; "shortsighted critics derided the plan"; "myopic thinking" [syn: short, shortsighted, unforesightful]
While his post was inflammatory he does have a point albeit oddly one that favors Ice, not hurts it.
With the over-abundances of mixed damage, specifically Smash/Lethal mixed with whatever, this does somewhat mitigate the needs for defense other than against Smash/Lethal. Now, I'm not saying the other defences are worthless, far from it. But it does mean one can go a very long ways on nothing but Smash/Lethal defense. Doesn't bother, means less powers one needs to take and slot. And for Ice is moot, we have to run Wet Ice anyhow for mez protection.
Anyhow, just saying there is a valid point. Specifically because almost all Smash/Lethal DR/DEF is higher in value than any other type of DR/DEF, against a mixed type, why using anything else? Against Nemesis why should I use anything other than Deflection Shield? Oh well, just a thought.
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If you have 40% Lethal defense, and 20% fire defense, and are hit by a fire/lethal attack, you get the higher of the two applied: you get 40% defense, even if the attack is 99% fire damage and 1% lethal.
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I'm not sure this is really a logical way for it to be dealt with in the first place. At least I survived 32 levels with prestacking rock armor by itself for this very reason.
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Fire Sword is 62.12% fire. If you get hit for a 100 damage fire sword attack from an even con minion, the defense character mentioned has a 10% chance to get hit-- therefore taking 10% damage over time, which averages to 10 damage per attack.
The resistance character has a 40% resistance to 37.88 damage, and a 20% resistance to 62.12 damage. When he gets hit, he takes .6 * 37.88 + .8 * 62.12 = 72.42 damage.
He also has a 50% chance to get hit, so he takes half of that over time, or 36.212 damage per attack.
So, the resistance character is taking 3.6 times the damage the defense character is.
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First of all, 40% resistance is equal to 20% defense, not 40% defense. The ratio is 2:1. We must compare apples to apples. Getting hit 1/2 as often equals taking 1/2 damage from each attack. The above defense hero is based on defenses twice as powerful as the resistance hero's resistances. So of course he'll be damaged less often.
Comparing apples to apples, a character with 20% defense to lethal, 10% fire defense will be hit 30% of the time, taking full damage each time, which is 30 points of damage per attack. Compared to 36.2 points per attack for the resistance character, this is only a 17% difference, not a 360% difference. Still defense is better, but not much. Bump fire defense to 20% and resistance to fire in this scenario up to 40%, and they are equal in damage per second. You have to slot up all your resistances to make them useful, defense requires only slotting of lethal/smash, as the other damage types are rare enough in pure attacks (usually they're mixed) to make it inefficient to devote a great number of slots to them. And now untyped defense become more valuable, as they still stack with all defenses. I need to find a way to pick up weave and six slot it fast!
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If you have 50% defense against smash, and 25% energy, under the previous system you'd have 75% defense against the attack which equates to 75% defense against smashing and 75% defense against energy since the entire attack either hits or misses.
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I probably would agree that this really doesn't make sense either. If I still played my blaster, I might actually realize that this hurts just about every blaster out there. They were getting free defense to the cold portions of my attacks!
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In the current system, you get the higher of the two numbers (50%) against the entire attack so you effectively get 50% defense vs. Smash, and 50% defense vs. energy. It's not as desirable as before, but this seems to make a lot more sense.
If they were to consider the single attack as two separate attacks, then you'd get 50% defense against the smash component, and 25% defense against the energy component. This you definitely don't want to happen.
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Certainly this would make me less effective (much more so), but it would make it useful to run multiple defenses and devote slots to them all. Currently i would never slot up any typed defense except smash/lethal, and psi (cause I can!). This is probably part of the reason some scrappers can tank pretty effectively (they took our jobs! 
), because they only need to have great defense to one damage type to be protected against most attacks. I might actually be for a split defense system, but it would likely require a slight upward adjustment in baseline defense numbers to make it work.
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The only thing that does not stack any more is multiple damage types. For example...
Fire sword does both Lethal and Fire. Your defense only needs to block one to block the whole attack...
In the old system, with all the armors on, you would get a 60% Def against this attack (45% + 15%). Under the new system, you only get 45% because it's higher.
Now, if you were hit with Fire Breath, which is only a fire attack, you would only get 15% Def against it.
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Which was my point, which of course is a HUGE problem at higher levels because most attacks will be doing multiple damage types. Hell, what do you think is going to happen in PVP? Almost EVERY attack will be doing multiple damage types!
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ummm... shouldn't ALL Ice tankers take Toughness?
that'll give you resists to all smash/leathal + whatevers AND mega defense too.
best of both worlds.
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Ummmm...... So I should be forced to take a power pool I had no intention of taking, and mutiple powers in it, just so I can compensate for a nerf that was SO unexpected it was never even bothered to be addressed by the Devs when they rolled it out?
Tell you what, when I get a cut from their paycheck, I'll start feeling obligated to do their job. In the meantime, I think I'll stay a paying customer, and request that they explain the consequeses of their changes to a power set, a power set they just changed withing the last month.
Seems pretty obvious that one hand doesn't know what the other hand is wiping. Of course the end result is that both hands stink.
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I just love reading threads like this and see a few people give accurate information, and the nay sayers NEVER respond to that person, only to the ones that have vague information and continue the "yes it is. no it isn't. yes it is." posts.
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Accurate, but irrelevant information. The question is primarily about single attacks doing multiple damage types. The answers I've seen are either "oh well" or in Gekos case, "hope a bubbler comes along to buff your lower defenses". What kind of answer is that? Keeps your toggles running and wait for someone to buff you??? Rediculous. Actually it's worse than that. If it was coming from one of the board peons it would be rediculous, that kind of answer coming from a developer is borderline incompetence.
This isn't one of those situations where a 5th column BS answer is going to cut it. Take some time (which was obviously NOT done before) and understand the real game consequences of the changes.
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The way I see the problem is resists do stack, defense now does not.
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If you have 40% Lethal defense, and 20% fire defense, and are hit by a fire/lethal attack, you get the higher of the two applied: you get 40% defense, even if the attack is 99% fire damage and 1% lethal.
If you have 40% lethal resistance and 20% fire resistance... Each component is modified by the appropriate amount.
Fire Sword is 62.12% fire. If you get hit for a 100 damage fire sword attack from an even con minion, the defense character mentioned has a 10% chance to get hit-- therefore taking 10% damage over time, which averages to 10 damage per attack.
The resistance character has a 40% resistance to 37.88 damage, and a 20% resistance to 62.12 damage. When he gets hit, he takes .6 * 37.88 + .8 * 62.12 = 72.42 damage.
He also has a 50% chance to get hit, so he takes half of that over time, or 36.212 damage per attack.
So, the resistance character is taking 3.6 times the damage the defense character is.
Resistance of the same type stacks just the same as defense of the same type stacks, but you get to pick the higher defense type when you are hit by a dual typed attack. This is an advantage over resistance, NOT a drawback.
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I understand what your saying, but the point is that a single defense isn't as good as a stacking defense, which is what Ice Armor did. In fact the devs just changed it a few weeks ago so that the armors would stack, and now they change it again. On top of that, I saw no posts at the time that explained why this change would be intentionally made to Ice Armor. If they said Ice was overpowered so they changed it, at least that would be the basis for a discussion.
It's no secrect that Ice Armor is one of the least chosen primaries in the tanker set. It gets relatively little discussion on the tanker boards. This whole scenario smacks of a change being made that had unintended, or at the very least, poorly communicated, consequences. THAT is my main point. It's not the first time this kind of situation has occured, but I'd like it to be the last. The only way I can see that happening is to make the Devs aware that they need to spend MORE time explaining and/or justifying their changes.
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I understand what your saying, but the point is that a single defense isn't as good as a stacking defense, which is what Ice Armor did.
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Um... duh?
Look, the deal is... it was never supposed to do that.
Really. It's been screwing over Dark Melee for ages and they've been begging for a fix for months that I know of.
And there was a great cheer among them when geko recently posted that the bug did indeed exist and they were fixing it.
What you had here was a really light version of the old smoke grenade bug, except in that case something was 1000% as effective as it should have been instead of the 150-200% Ice (and Dark Miasma) has been getting. No, I don't understand why things like this take quite so long to find and fix, but they do. There is no consolation prize for this. Your power was broken to your benefit and they fixed it.
Note my sig - I get this "nerf" on one my Dark/Dark Defender. I also get the fix on my Ice Blaster, my EM Tanker, and my Dark Melee Scrapper.
If this screws Ice Tankers then put this energy into looking for ways of fixing Ice Tankers, not wishing for the broken mechanics back.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So, to confirm, hopefully by Geko, no defenses stack if they are against the same type?
So, picking up CJ and haste (both non-slotted for def), you still only have 5% defense? Add in stealth and that defense is used instead of CJ and haste, not in addition to?
As a better example, as an illusion controller, slotting out maneuvers and group invisibility nets you nothing, as only the higher value will be used?
Since you've all decided that my non-aggressive, non-insulting post was a flame, I can only ask a question which I asked in my side note. What does ice get for being only defense (cold resist only)? With this change ice tankers have it even harder in the game till lvl 26. If invuln scrappers were stepping on tank toes, how is it that Super Reflexes which gets defense vs. everything but toxic (which noone does) isn't stepping on the toes of a tank set that now has a harder time competing with it AND still has no defense vs. psionics (which SR does get).
And yes, it is a nerf. We used to have higher defense now we get less. Call it an exploit if you must but the fact is the defense did stack now it doesn't. You used to get both. Not the higher of the two. Now ice has a harder time than it used to before EA is gained or before it is used in every fight. (how many invulns have to drain a group of baddies to gain their resistance?) It isn't a horrible nerf and it doesn't anger me, but it does have this ice tank wondering if they thought I was overpowered. If this wasn't fair, and it may not have been, give us something else to make us survivable on the way into fights against +3 or 4s on a TF. Fire gets mega damage, we get a 25% slow.
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So, to confirm, hopefully by Geko, no defenses stack if they are against the same type?
So, picking up CJ and haste (both non-slotted for def), you still only have 5% defense? Add in stealth and that defense is used instead of CJ and haste, not in addition to?
As a better example, as an illusion controller, slotting out maneuvers and group invisibility nets you nothing, as only the higher value will be used?
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No, this only affects typed defenses. (not ranged/melee/Aoe typed but Smashing/Energy typed) Really the only group bothered at all is Ice Armor b/c it is the only set focused on defense against a specific typed attack. (and this only insofar as EA doesn't cover it, as I am trying to get across it isn't a huge deal but it does hurt that a set many considered to be the weakest of tank armors is getting any kind of reduction.)
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So, to confirm, hopefully by Geko, no defenses stack if they are against the same type?
So, picking up CJ and haste (both non-slotted for def), you still only have 5% defense? Add in stealth and that defense is used instead of CJ and haste, not in addition to?
As a better example, as an illusion controller, slotting out maneuvers and group invisibility nets you nothing, as only the higher value will be used?
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Sorry, I am not seeing where you got that Idea at all (I could be blind.....) Like defenses stack, but a mixed attack (fire/smashing) will be defended by the higher of your defenses. If you had 45% Smashing and 20% fire defense, and are attacked with something that does both Smashing and Fire, it will have a resistance of 45% applied, not 65% (the combination of Smashing and Fire defence.)
This does not seem to impact stacking of a like defense at all.....and I imagine that there would be a huge outcry if that happened.
Regs,
muffinlad
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Like defenses stack, but a mixed attack (fire/smashing) will be defended by the higher of your defenses. If you had 45% Smashing and 20% fire defense, and are attacked with something that does both Smashing and Fire, it will have a resistance of 45% applied, not 65% (the combination of Smashing and Fire defence.)
This does not seem to impact stacking of a like defense at all.....and I imagine that there would be a huge outcry if that happened.
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Correct. One power that gives different defense % to different damage types now gives the best of the defenses against a given attack.
Two or more different powers that give defense % still add together whatever defense it is that each one gives.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If invuln scrappers were stepping on tank toes, how is it that Super Reflexes which gets defense vs. everything but toxic (which noone does) isn't stepping on the toes of a tank set that now has a harder time competing with it AND still has no defense vs. psionics (which SR does get).
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I really stopped reading your post here. This comes across as something along the lines of two dwarfs getting in a fight about whose legs are stubbier. If you meant "please make Ice tanks as least as defensive as SR Scrappers", you blew it. Instead you came across as "wait, you nerfed Inv Scraps for stepping on the toes of Inv Tanks - nerf SR now because they step on the toes of Ice Tanks!"
Yes, please. Ask for a nerf on what's probably the gimpiest Scrapper powerset so the gimpiest Tanker powerset sucks less in comparison.
If that's not what you meant to convey, you might want to recconsider how you word things.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And yes, it is a nerf. We used to have higher defense now we get less.
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It is not a nerf, they didn't change how Ice tankers work. They fixed a bug in the game. The def that Ice Tankers got was never intended, and was higher then it should of been.
This is no different then the 'nerf' they made to smoke grenades. Something was broken in the real meaning of the word, it didn't work right, and was fixed. This is not a nerf to any AT.
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If you have 40% Lethal defense, and 20% fire defense, and are hit by a fire/lethal attack, you get the higher of the two applied: you get 40% defense, even if the attack is 99% fire damage and 1% lethal.
If you have 40% lethal resistance and 20% fire resistance... Each component is modified by the appropriate amount.
Fire Sword is 62.12% fire. If you get hit for a 100 damage fire sword attack from an even con minion, the defense character mentioned has a 10% chance to get hit-- therefore taking 10% damage over time, which averages to 10 damage per attack.
The resistance character has a 40% resistance to 37.88 damage, and a 20% resistance to 62.12 damage. When he gets hit, he takes .6 * 37.88 + .8 * 62.12 = 72.42 damage.
He also has a 50% chance to get hit, so he takes half of that over time, or 36.212 damage per attack.
So, the resistance character is taking 3.6 times the damage the defense character is.
Resistance of the same type stacks just the same as defense of the same type stacks, but you get to pick the higher defense type when you are hit by a dual typed attack. This is an advantage over resistance, NOT a drawback.
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You're educated reasoning and mathematical proof has no power here!! People are mad cause their defense got lowered and they will whine about it for a while. Just gotta let it die down.
I just love reading threads like this and see a few people give accurate information, and the nay sayers NEVER respond to that person, only to the ones that have vague information and continue the "yes it is. no it isn't. yes it is." posts.