Did some testing and Sgt_Liberty was correct.
Test used a level 2 Peacebringer and a level 2 fire tank without fire shield on.
Took damage from a level 2 minion Blood Brother Slicer
PB - 8.81 damage
Tank - 6.78 damage
6.78 * 1.3 = 8.81 damage to reflect the 30% Debuff.
I then logged on my level 28 PB and did a test with Shining Shield with 0 Resists.
52.98 Damage with Shield
66.86 Daamage with no Shield
Making the base resist of the shields ~20%
Well, the fact that you use shields won't make you more fragile, I would think. With the 30% debuff, you've got less survivability than a blaster with no shields on. So, if you've got the survivability of a blaster, then wouldn't the shields be even more effective now?
Bah, I'm confusing myself as I post this. 
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How are you more fragile?
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I use shields.
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Ok....
Shield base is 27%, right?
Setting "blaster HP" at 100, with -30% resists, 113% hp, and an unslotted shield, a 100-point attack is doing...
(100 * (1.3 - .27)) / 113 = 91.1% of your health
A fully slotted shield (59.4%) would make it
(100 * (1.3 - .594)) / 113 = 62.5%
With 0% base resists, blaster HP, and an unslotted shield, it's doing...
(100 * (1.0 - .27)) / 100 = 73% of your health
With a fully slotted shield:
(100 * (1.0 - .594)) / 100 = 40.6%
I suppose that if you have fully slotted shields AND regularly team up with enough +RES members to put you at the cap (that would be six of them, I think?), you'd be more fragile because you wouldn't get any bonus from removing the resistance penalty....anything less than that and you should be gaining survivability in human form, though. Even if you've always got five +RES teammates and they're always in range, you'd be going from 18% damage taken to 15% damage taken.
If you've got perma-Eclipse and it's always enough to cap you, you're losing out too, I guess.
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Persoannly I feel the HP reduction will have a greater impact than the -30% resistance. To the extent that at the moment I would prefer things to remain untouched, but that's why there is a test server. So I reserve full judgement until these changes have been implemented.
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If you think about it, having -30% resistance is exactly the same as having -30% HP. So you really only have 70% of the HP that it says you have.
If you break down the numbers and compare a Kheldian's actual HP (70% of what the number says) and a Blaster of the same level's HP, the Blaster will have more HP than the Kheldian.
Having Blaster HP instead of a 30% resistance penalty is an improvement.
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I quite agree. Also remember something VERY important with Peacebringers at least. While I have gone the 'human' route because it's much more UBER than the Lobster or Calamari. Remember that Peacebringers get Essense Boost which essentially adds an addtional 500 HP to your Max HP. Even if they lower my HP to a Blasters I can still push my HP back up about 500 more bringing me right back up to Scrapper lvls 
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The shining world of the seven systems. On the continent of Wild Endeavour. In the mountains of Solace and Solitude there stood the Citadel of the Time Lords. The oldest and most mightiest race in the Universe. Sworn never to interfere. Only watch...[/SIZE][/B]
That's nice for PB's but it doesn't help Warshades.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
My few issues with all Kheldons are the same as what has been pointed out above:
1. The forms loose everything. No bonuses, very few carry over powers, NO carry over shields.
2. You don't have a choice in which form you really want to play. At level 6, you should get to choose between Nova and Dwarf, then you get the other at lvl 20. This would help with the slotting issues that people are having when trying to build up the Dwarf.
3. I really do like this game... I think all in all the dev's have done a great job with the game in general. However, I do believe that they purposely put things in, and then promise fixes, in order to keep the subscriber base up to a certain level. People that get truly fed up, good ridance. People willing to tough it out, please update your credit card info asap. Fan boys, thank you for keeping your credit card up to date, and for defending us on all CoH related forums.
As Sailor Toril put it and was flamed for it... it is sad that we always seem to get screwed. You build for something and it gets nerfed. You compensate, and you get nerfed. You finally reach the pinacle mark, start a new AT, and it is broke out of the box.
In reference to another poster... I guess I am a masichist... I keep coming back for more, even when I know what to expect.
Suma
50 Claws / Invul / Body
50 Peacebringer please just kill me
50 Dark Melee / Super Reflex / Body #1 toon
50 Fire / Rad / Psi
50 Dark / Dark / Dark
50 Fire / Kinetic / Fire
50 Dual Blades / Will Power
50 Spines / Fire
50 Ill / Rad / Psi
43 Ice / Ice / Cold
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Well, the fact that you use shields won't make you more fragile, I would think. With the 30% debuff, you've got less survivability than a blaster with no shields on. So, if you've got the survivability of a blaster, then wouldn't the shields be even more effective now?
Bah, I'm confusing myself as I post this.
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His numbers were based on the idea that a human form without shields can survive less damage than a human form without shields with blaster hit points and no resist debuff.
Since I actually use shields, my resists are much higher than his scenario offers, and at that point, I'm actually less durable without the debuff and with blaster hit points. That is, being able to boost my resists up with more hit points is better than being able to boost my resists slightly faster with fewer hit points.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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I suppose that if you have fully slotted shields AND regularly team up with enough +RES members to put you at the cap (that would be six of them, I think?), you'd be more fragile because you wouldn't get any bonus from removing the resistance penalty....anything less than that and you should be gaining survivability in human form, though. Even if you've always got five +RES teammates and they're always in range, you'd be going from 18% damage taken to 15% damage taken.
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I could have sworn I suggested leaving the resistance debuff and keeping the higher hit points, and then boosting the resistance bonus for teammates.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
After reading through this thread and reviewing everyones post, I noticed that no one got in depth on the issue of how the PBs are much more stronger than WSs. For starters they can increase their hitpoints (which is a very valuable skill). The only thing us warshades got going for us are our pets. I'd like to know what the devs are doing about this. Its so obvious that PBs and WSs are nowhere near balanced. Granted I love my shade, i just want more balancing between the two.
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I suppose that if you have fully slotted shields AND regularly team up with enough +RES members to put you at the cap (that would be six of them, I think?), you'd be more fragile because you wouldn't get any bonus from removing the resistance penalty....anything less than that and you should be gaining survivability in human form, though. Even if you've always got five +RES teammates and they're always in range, you'd be going from 18% damage taken to 15% damage taken.
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I could have sworn I suggested leaving the resistance debuff and keeping the higher hit points, and then boosting the resistance bonus for teammates.
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The resistance debuff is being taken out because States said that it was hurting the solo and small team player too much.
Miri
Justice Server
How about removing the damage debuffs for human and nova form, then upping the damage resist cap in dwarf form a little bit to compensate for the decreased hitpoints... Maybe lower the end cost of Dwarf attacks/powers, make the dwarf provoke auto-hit, or give it a slight HP regen increase...
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I don't mind waiting for Issue 4.
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Good dog.
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I'm just curious if the list of proposed changes is still the same?
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You should know by now, what ever they do it will be worse. Take the voidhunters who are ridiculously overpowered as it is, they are probably going to double their damage while halving that of the kheldian.
Ok guys i hear a lot of wining. I have a lvl 44 peacebringer. I have played him there for most of the time so no pl. It was fun all the way, i never had a lot of trouble playing him not in nova and not in dwarf. The only thing was that i used the human form just for the buffs. Now i did get the lightform at 38 and now on lvl 44 i can easely hunt down lvl 49s. So i dont know but i think this peacebringer is not gimped at all it is one of the strongest in the game. I can fight an av lvl 50 without any problem at the moment. Ok i have a problem i cant get him down but i will live. So dont say it is gimped or broken it is one of the most powerfull chars in the game. I will give the update on the warshade when i get it higher.
Guys just start playing them its not easy but its a strong at. 
Look, all I know is that I can't play my human form because he's such a fragile egg-shell that he can't stand up in a fight for more than 2 minutes tops. By that time hes half health (sometimes) and virtually no endurance left. The human form has some majorly cool powers and I can see thier potential, but we shouldn't have to wait for the next 4 issues to come out before they're fixed. As it is right now my tank form is my primary means of doing missions and such, and if the hit points are reduced in that form? Thats just stupid. Keep the tank form as it is. Its fine. Its not broken. Leave it alone. You can only patch a tire so often before it goes flat for good and I'm starting to get the feeling thats whats going to happen with these Kheldians. I love play my Khel, but I want to play my human form more than 2 minutes at a time.
Moncton - 50 PB
Borealys II - 50 Storm/Rad Def.
Capt. United - 47 MA/SR Scr.
Storm Pegasus - 33 Storm/Elec Def.
Diamond Nights - 13 DB/SR Scr.
"Courage is not the absence of fear; it is the presence of fear, yet the will to go on."
Nice. Send Statesman your resume and say you will work for FREE.
He will definitely put you to work to fix the issues you have stated. You got 2 weeks to fix it,..... Ok everyone gpa381 has 2 weeks...
The lesson I've learned in this game is once you excede the invisable limit the devs have set things will be reset to their vision. The reality is that visions change over time. The ential vision of Kheldians rock. But the reality of kheldians is not as such. Truthfully Warshades should not have been introduced. In atempt to build to different yet similar AT's lots of things got broken and unbalanced. 
Peacebringers are really fine over all. They aren't really broke.
When it comes down to it their should be more powers that transfer over to the forms. But they don't. Sheilds should transfer with the forms. The attacks need to stay with human in my opinion. In the end changes will be made and we will be back here complaining once more.
Well since not much has been said about warshades, here goes....
I don't know for sure if the devs have been working on this as I've heard reports on both sides, but warshades have the worst endurance problems of any AT I've seen. I use Nova form regularly, I can totally see the difference, Bright Nova recovers end faster than Dark Nova. About 5 seconds of blasting, my endurance is done. Not a good thing, only way I can keep fighting is if I got someone speed boosting or giving RA. The human form attack powers aren't horrible on the endurance, but not great.
Dwarf seems to have decent endurance use, but I must say the self heal in this form is absolutely pathetic. First of all, it has to hit, and doesn't have very good accuracy, secondly, the amount of health drained is very minimal and will not likely help much if you really need it. Please improve the heal, I mean you need the heal to tank as warshade. I much prefer the white dwarf heal.
Just got my warshade to 24, finally got my first self heal power for human form, Stygian Circle. Now the amount healed is pretty nice, but what really shocked me was that it takes over 1/3 of an endurance bar PLUS I need to have defeated foes at my feet PLUS it requires accuracy and can miss? What the heck, let's just make it more useless, only have it work during a solar eclipse or something. So after an intense battle your health is low, your end is quickly drained because your a warshade, etc.. then you have to wait for about 1/3 your endurance to recover and try to catch a defeated foe with this power before it disappears... Ah yes, futility. For that end cost, it should heal my team.
Haven't even tried the self res power yet, but I imagine sucking essence from a living target to revive yourself won't be too convenient either.
Please fix some of this stuff!
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They're not gimped.
I'm not even sure people are using "gimp" to mean "gimp" anymore.
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Classic! That made me chuckle
I think it may have been said before, but warshades should have a power or 2 to benefit their team, like peacebringers have a rather potent heal, glowing touch. It's cool that peacebringers get scrapping, blasting and a bit of defending powers in human form, but warshades only have very limited control powers, even more limited blasting, and only self buffs. If they are meant to be stand in controllers, at least give them better control powers, maybe 1 team buff or heal power, reduce endurance on most of their powers, fix the endurance recharge problem in nova form, maybe better pets also.
What happens if I do this?
Exaulted -
Willow the Wisp - kinetic meleeSR brute
Aurablade - DBRegen Scrapper
Nichole Tesla - ElecKin controller
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What happens if I do this?
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You get one-starred for digging up dead threads.
This makes me a sad alien....
Exaulted -
Willow the Wisp - kinetic meleeSR brute
Aurablade - DBRegen Scrapper
Nichole Tesla - ElecKin controller
I swear, this time, it wasn't me!
Hang on, getting Cuppa down here...
oh, and IBTL
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How are you more fragile?
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I use shields.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)