Kind of my point really, especially since our shields already pretty much negate it. There is no difference, aside from nerfing Dwarf/Nova form and a few other powers that rely on (raw) HP.
I state Nova form (aswell) as it only has a 15% debuff (as we all know), but will still suffer the drop in HP.
In human form yes, but it is not so in dwarf form. Dwarf form does not suffer the neg resistance penalty as it is now.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Black Stormer, human form Kheldians have an innate -30% damage resistance penalty to all damage types.
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AND THEY ARE GOING TO REMOVE IT!!?
WHAT A LOAD OF BUNK.
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Maybe you misunderstand, a -30% damage resistance penalty means we have 30% LOWER resistance than everyone else.
Removing this means we all get 30% MORE resistance.
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Thank you I did misunderstand but I am still very upset about them lowering our health. It's okay to play a jack of all trades, I did that as a Dark Defender, but it's something different to make us sitting ducks for the voids and the others with ion blasters. I don't understand why they don't leave our health the way it is. Can anyone explain this?
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In human form yes, but it is not so in dwarf form. Dwarf form does not suffer the neg resistance penalty as it is now.
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That is true. What I'm thinking is that they'll give Dwarf form a Dull Pain effect that gives you the HP of a Scrapper while you're in that form.
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In human form yes, but it is not so in dwarf form. Dwarf form does not suffer the neg resistance penalty as it is now.
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That is true. What I'm thinking is that they'll give Dwarf form a Dull Pain effect that gives you the HP of a Scrapper while you're in that form.
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Ya, that's about the only way I can see this working also.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
However, that still doesn't address other forms/powers that will be affected.
Kind of feel sorry for the Devs, with this one. With the two ATs being so flexabile (in build) changing anything will improve someone, while nerfing another. Well, assuming additional changes aren't being made.
Well, they're removing the resistance penalty of the Nova form as well.
Hmm... I'm going to have to compare Nova form's actual HP with an even level blaster....
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DAMIT i dont want to have to wait 3 months to solo good, cant you PLEASE test and release these in a quicker patch or something?
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I can solo with very little problems. In larger missions I do die a bit more but I usually can make it up faster the way the blasters do. Especially with the extra damage I get in nova form.
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I4 is not far off. It's already being previewed.
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Um, I3 was on test for over a month, wasn't it? I4 isn't even on test yet. If you're going by your logic CoV isn't far away, nor is the next incarnation of the Windows OS. Both have "already been previewed".
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
He's talking about internal test.
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Still screwed over we are I see. Very sad.. Very sad indeed.
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And all the comments like it; Statesman, I'm very confident that you're smart enough to see through these comments. Not saying that Kheldians don't have issues, but there's a fix coming, and people shouldn't be whining until they've at least tried it with the fix.
To everyone else: Kheldians are NOT as gimped as people say. Mine is very good, sometimes outperforming others, often filling in and saving the day. They're harder sure, and maybe weaker, but with these changes they'll be graet. Normally I try to stay out of debates like this, but wanted to give a warning to new Kheldians, and reassurances to States that not everyone disagrees.
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You're right. At least half of the fellow 50s in my SG disagree. I have hopes that it can be fixed. They disagree and have already shelved both ATs in favor of combinations that have been broken for months that are now fixed. Essentially Dark Armor, Mind Control, Stone Armor and a few others are all new power sets, and everyone of them is probably better than the Epics.
Maybe 6 months from now the Kheldians will work as intended, but if you look at Statesman's own words as to his vision for the AT they clearly aren't working as intended. You have the best players in the game who have taken various character combos to 50 multiple times (many of us still here from beta) pointing out issues with the new ATs and the issues are not being addressed. Good lord, we even have had a player who played a Mind/Empath for 50 levels who has moved back an to original AT and that combo was like having a root canal with no anesthesia until the past few months.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Well, I played SR back before Issue 1 and liked it, so maybe I'm a masochist.....
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Well, I played SR back before Issue 1 and liked it, so maybe I'm a masochist.....
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Yeah, I liked it to. The SR char in my tag was my first alt. The main reason I liked it was because I still looked essentially normal without a bunch of special effects cluttering my screen.
However now I see that the character had serious issues when compared to the other secondaries. Its hard to believe how glaring the problems were until you look at the fact that SR got a large buff, and regen and invuln both got nerfed for all 3 to be comparable.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Ok so here's my view. Sure removing the -30% resistane penalty is nice and needed in my opinion.
I will look at this from a Warshade point of view since I have a 32 WS and only a Level 2 PB. We will start with the human form.
Ok we have toggle shields that are nice. But so are the Shields granted by the APPs that Blasters Controllers and Defenders get access too. Sure we get resistance to more damage types than the APP resist powers give but we have to take and run 3 toggles to get them. Now tankers and Scrappers get resist/defense powers and also get reliable status protection to keep thsoe defenses running. We do not get this status protection we have to rely upon using insperations or grouping with controller, etc... basically we have to use an outside source of Status protection. After 30 a pretty high precentage of mobs can knock down toggles fairly easily. So I would say that would puts our defenses equal to or less than a scrappers (Higher cap, though only reachable through use of pools, but no innate status protection) for the human form.
Now lets look at damage for the human form. Well our base is less than defenders. So that puts us well below scrappers in the damage department. We do get the team bonus to help out with damage so that kind of makes up for that but I still dont see my Washade doing near scrapper damage. We have ranged attacks which scrappers lack (untill APPs) and we also have attacks/powers based on Melee range.
Ok so having to go into melee range to use some of our powers we risk loosing shields (remember only situational status protection here) and subject ourselves to more damage (melee damage > ranged damage of mobs).
Ok now lets look at utility powers. Warshades get some control/selfbuff powers. Alot of which require melee range and are very similar or duplicates of Scrapper powers. Also some of the better powers are limited, requiring corpses to target or use.
So this leads me to my point. Warshades are very similar to scrappers. With less damage and arguable equal defenses (higher cap/limited Status protection). We do considerable less damage but do get some range and control powers in place of that. There is also the group bonus to help out there. So you could say that balances out. So why not ditch the -30% damage and leave the hps as they are.
Ahhh. But you have forms you can switch into. Yes now this is how I would like to see the forms figured in. The forms should be really good at what they do but have penalties that come with them. IE Nova should have great damage but total lack defenses, basically a more fragile blaster. The Tanker should be able to tank though not as well as a true Tanker. The forms should be situational and useful in those situations. Emergency tanker/extra damage blaster to take out that added boss quickly. From my experience playing with the Forms and from other posts it sounds that these forms do function much like that. Maybe not perfectly but close to it.
Though It seems that for a lot of people the forms are the staple with the human form simple supporting the other form.
Basically what I im trying to say is Balance the human form with other ATs in mind. Then make the Forms (Nova/Dwarf) balanced by penalties that come with that forms. You can't slot all of them and making the forms viable leaves the human form slotted poorly. The forms do add versitility and versitility is power in most games I have played. So balance that versitility when the power is used, dont gimp the base AT and then think the form will make up for it. Applying the
-30% resist was basically penalizing the base when it wasnt using a form. Have an apporiate penalty when using the form instead.
Basically in my opinion balance the human form then balance the Nova/Tanker Forms as needed.
Also dont forget about the Quantums and Voids. That could be considered a balancing point for the forms.
The problem with what you say in the above post is the lack of slots sure kheldians can tank...in dwarf form nearly as well as true tanks if slotted.... sure novas are high damage output fragile blasters if slotted.... sure our human powers are slightly weaker the defender powers if slotted. Where am I going with this is that to get the versatility we have to slot all three forms If we fail to slot dwarf it is a horrible tanker and not worth taking if you don't slot nova you have a very weak blaster with extremely weak defenses and no status protection.
If you don't slot human powers your attacks and defenses both suck.
It appears the only effective way to play these AT's is via respec. play human (mandatory) till level 6... Play nova till level 25 (when the start of the every group has a status effect attacker in it) Play Dwarf from 25- 35ish start at 25 cause thats when ya can have resists slotted and maybe an attack or two so you can actually defeat a villain instead of boring him to death. At 35 you can go back to human form and slot up your human attacks and defenses at the expense of the forms.
The getting the forms later then level 1 is also a big negative as we can't start to slot our tank till level 20 it takes until late 20's to get slotted to be effective for only a couple of levels before it is better to just start slotting the human form as you can get resistances up to acceptable levels at that time with more attacks and more auxilliary powers available to you.
My proposal would not be more slots as this would somehow not seem fair to non epic AT's. But to assume each sub power of the form is slotted with 3 of the level appropriate enhancements throughout your leveling (1-15 TO 15-25 DO 25+ SO) This would give the form a big benefit right out of the box and also at the same time keep them from becoming overpowered. You could still slot the base form power with to hit buffs and end recovery or resist buff in dwarf. I think this alone would make the alternate forms good enough to use at high levels and for the base form to be worth putting slots in.
As it is now at higher levels people are skipping the forms totally( respeccing out of them or just not selecting them at all) due to the cost in slots to make them anywhere near effective.
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The problem with what you say in the above post is the lack of slots sure kheldians can tank...in dwarf form nearly as well as true tanks if slotted.... sure novas are high damage output fragile blasters if slotted.... sure our human powers are slightly weaker the defender powers if slotted. Where am I going with this is that to get the versatility we have to slot all three forms If we fail to slot dwarf it is a horrible tanker and not worth taking if you don't slot nova you have a very weak blaster with extremely weak defenses and no status protection.
If you don't slot human powers your attacks and defenses both suck.
It appears the only effective way to play these AT's is via respec. play human (mandatory) till level 6... Play nova till level 25 (when the start of the every group has a status effect attacker in it) Play Dwarf from 25- 35ish start at 25 cause thats when ya can have resists slotted and maybe an attack or two so you can actually defeat a villain instead of boring him to death. At 35 you can go back to human form and slot up your human attacks and defenses at the expense of the forms.
The getting the forms later then level 1 is also a big negative as we can't start to slot our tank till level 20 it takes until late 20's to get slotted to be effective for only a couple of levels before it is better to just start slotting the human form as you can get resistances up to acceptable levels at that time with more attacks and more auxilliary powers available to you.
My proposal would not be more slots as this would somehow not seem fair to non epic AT's. But to assume each sub power of the form is slotted with 3 of the level appropriate enhancements throughout your leveling (1-15 TO 15-25 DO 25+ SO) This would give the form a big benefit right out of the box and also at the same time keep them from becoming overpowered. You could still slot the base form power with to hit buffs and end recovery or resist buff in dwarf. I think this alone would make the alternate forms good enough to use at high levels and for the base form to be worth putting slots in.
As it is now at higher levels people are skipping the forms totally( respeccing out of them or just not selecting them at all) due to the cost in slots to make them anywhere near effective.
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I alway thought that the forms should represent an extension of how we make our human character. So as a peacebring when i take nova novas damage is basicly a averageof how many damage slots i have on human powers plus the nova bonus. SO the stronger attacking human i make the stronger nova, and same is true for dwarf the base resistance is figured by how defensively i built my human and then can add slots to max it if i want. But basicly rather then having the forms be so independant that they are to costly to use, have there base values be an extension of your human form for damage, defense or whatever applies to that form. with there form bonus, meaning nova bonus damage, dwarf resistancea dn status protection. and have there end rec be based on either slotting the form or how your end rec is slotting in human.
But losing HP is a bad idea. Even minus the resistance, atleast PB are more tanker/scrappers then blasters. THe damage resides in melee attacks, with week range. Our hp were not scrapperish to start i think they were around 15 percent higher then blasters, but with the shields and the defenses, weaker attacks that still seems fair.
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Good lord, we even have had a player who played a Mind/Empath for 50 levels who has moved back an to original AT and that combo was like having a root canal with no anesthesia until the past few months.
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Now, c'mon. Having almost gotten mine up to 50, I wouldn't rate it any worse than 'poke in the eye with a sharp stick'. Maybe ordinary root canal. Root canal without anaesthetic? I think you're selling Mind/Empathy short.
The Kheldians can't be that bad.
@Mindshadow
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The ones I spoke of (removing the -30% debuff, etc.) are all in Issue 4. Just wanted to give you an update.
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Bah! This whole thing a ploy to keep people in the game rather than leaving. The devs PURPOSELY made the Kheldians gimped. Now they say, "Oh just wait a few months for the next issue and you'll see how we've improved things".
The devs purposely create issues like this, just so they can solve them later. When they solve them, the devs look like they are 'responding' to our concerns, and they squeeze a few more months payment from us.
There's no WAY the staff could have thought the -30% debuff was going to be acceptable or even playable. But they went ahead and did it anyway, just to screw with their customers.
Pfft!
------------------------
Phooey
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The ones I spoke of (removing the -30% debuff, etc.) are all in Issue 4. Just wanted to give you an update.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah! This whole thing a ploy to keep people in the game rather than leaving. The devs PURPOSELY made the Kheldians gimped. Now they say, "Oh just wait a few months for the next issue and you'll see how we've improved things".
The devs purposely create issues like this, just so they can solve them later. When they solve them, the devs look like they are 'responding' to our concerns, and they squeeze a few more months payment from us.
There's no WAY the staff could have thought the -30% debuff was going to be acceptable or even playable. But they went ahead and did it anyway, just to screw with their customers.
Pfft!
------------------------
Phooey
[/ QUOTE ]
Insanity-protection-fields on full! He's gonna blow!
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The ones I spoke of (removing the -30% debuff, etc.) are all in Issue 4. Just wanted to give you an update.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah! This whole thing a ploy to keep people in the game rather than leaving. The devs PURPOSELY made the Kheldians gimped. Now they say, "Oh just wait a few months for the next issue and you'll see how we've improved things".
The devs purposely create issues like this, just so they can solve them later. When they solve them, the devs look like they are 'responding' to our concerns, and they squeeze a few more months payment from us.
There's no WAY the staff could have thought the -30% debuff was going to be acceptable or even playable. But they went ahead and did it anyway, just to screw with their customers.
Pfft!
[/ QUOTE ]
I detect a heavy bitterness residue Captain... scanners indictate it may be SOE based...
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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Now that I'm playing Kheldians, I'm really not looking forward to having my hit points drop to blaster levels. Right now, I have a lot of hit points...sure, solo or on a small team, that's offset by the resistance debuff. But on a larger team, I really feel the survivability difference.
I feel like - if it's necessary to have blaster hit points as a consequence of losing the resistance debuff, that maybe this is one of those short term changes that will make some people happy, but ultimately hurt the AT's performance in the long run. 
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In the long run it's going to be a gain. Human survive ability is going to be about the same. A Nova is going to bit a bit squisher than before. And hopefully the Dwarf form will be a wash also with an increase in Health or the equivalent.
In large teams, a Kheldian is going to be just as powerful as now. But when solo or in a small team, a Kheldian will be better than one is now. Remember you aren't going to always be able to get on a large team with your Kheldian. (Well you might be able to, but not me 
).
/signed!
That was so well put it was scary. I'm sure the "Soapbox 10" will tear you a new one for it though.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
[ QUOTE ]
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Good lord, we even have had a player who played a Mind/Empath for 50 levels who has moved back an to original AT and that combo was like having a root canal with no anesthesia until the past few months.
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Now, c'mon. Having almost gotten mine up to 50, I wouldn't rate it any worse than 'poke in the eye with a sharp stick'. Maybe ordinary root canal. Root canal without anaesthetic? I think you're selling Mind/Empathy short.
The Kheldians can't be that bad.
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Lol. Near the end of her levels I felt sorry enough for her that I was providing her DPS.
When you have a Grav/Storm controller running around with you as your DPS you have serious issues. I killed more Death mages in the parking lot at Portal Corp for her in one day than most people ever want to think of seeing. aahahhaha
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ones I spoke of (removing the -30% debuff, etc.) are all in Issue 4. Just wanted to give you an update.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah! This whole thing a ploy to keep people in the game rather than leaving. The devs PURPOSELY made the Kheldians gimped. Now they say, "Oh just wait a few months for the next issue and you'll see how we've improved things".
The devs purposely create issues like this, just so they can solve them later. When they solve them, the devs look like they are 'responding' to our concerns, and they squeeze a few more months payment from us.
There's no WAY the staff could have thought the -30% debuff was going to be acceptable or even playable. But they went ahead and did it anyway, just to screw with their customers.
Pfft!
[/ QUOTE ]
I detect a heavy bitterness residue Captain... scanners indictate it may be SOE based...
[/ QUOTE ]
Saying I'm bitter doesn't refute my point.
------------
Phooey
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Persoannly I feel the HP reduction will have a greater impact than the -30% resistance. To the extent that at the moment I would prefer things to remain untouched, but that's why there is a test server. So I reserve full judgement until these changes have been implemented.
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If you think about it, having -30% resistance is exactly the same as having -30% HP. So you really only have 70% of the HP that it says you have.
If you break down the numbers and compare a Kheldian's actual HP (70% of what the number says) and a Blaster of the same level's HP, the Blaster will have more HP than the Kheldian.
Having Blaster HP instead of a 30% resistance penalty is an improvement.