The Theory of Updates and the Casual Player
By
Ariel_NA,
Posted on: 2004-11-29 14:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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...Yeah, yeah. You win. I give up.
Can we eat some pie now?
And how is that retconning? That's just changing the mission for future players, probably so they aren't confused about the 5th and the Council. Wouldn't it only be retconning if they changed the souvenir I have?
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Please, please dont make me regret giving you the benefit of the doubt in regards to knowing what Retconning is, at this late date bub. Seriously go have some pie, obviously your blood sugar is low at the moment. Yeah that's it!
On a more serious note. What you suggest regarding confusion is all fine and dandy for "Joe Bloe New Guy" who buys the game after Issue 3 goes live, but um, wait a sec? What about the 200K+ of us who are here now, havent gotten to see every scrap of content yet, and have been financially supporting this game since launch? Um, don't we count for something? Or more simply, what about us existing players who happen to like our Neo Fascist Villian organizations as they are right now instead of some Vanilla, dishrag wearing Cobra Commando look-a-like? If they leave the existing badges and souvenirs that you have already collected the same, then what good is a letter from Requiem, if you never get the chance to face him? How is that less confusing?
When you change everything from how it was to something different, right down to the history behind the story, that is what Retconning is all about. This is akin to rewriting Captain America to where instead of facing the Red Skull and using a Sheild, he faced The Red Coat and used a Flintlock? See the similarities? Same Hero, Same Villian, just repackaged as something totally different. Welcome to Retconning 101.
Now about that pie? Will you have Blueberry or Apple? I suggest the Blueberry, I hear the Apple has fallen pretty far from the tree.
Have fun 
!
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A Neo-Fascist by any other name would still smell as sweet, would it not?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA
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I just said this wasn't because of the German market. If it was, the 5th would be gone completely and the replacement wouldn't just be another pseudo-Nazi organization. Oh, and there wouldn't have been evidence of the Council's existence since beta.
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I would be very very interested in seeing this evidence that you are referring to. Got a source? Screenshot? Story Arc stuff? If you are referring to the Nictus/Requiem connection in his discription, okay, I am with you there, but ya know something that strikes me there is that, well that reference explains why he changed is name from Ridolfo Unzzano to Requiem, but ya know to date I haven't seen or read any reference to why he changed his name to "The Center". Or if Requiem isnt "The Center" then who the heck is this guy and what happened to Requeim?
Even when you see the new story line where you first encounter this "Center" there is no mention of him having once been Requiem, nor any story about what happened to Requiem, and last I checked I haven't read anything to that effect either, and from what I have seen there are in fact people who have finished the Striga Coucil based missions and associated TF and they didn't make any mention of him, or the take over for that matter.
If by evidence you mean something else, I apologize, and await your presentation of such.
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As someone else said, Cryptic knew full well they were going to sell the game in Germany from day one. Why put in an "illegal" group if you're just going to turn around and take them out? Also, German law only pertains to specific Nazi imagery, such as swastikas and so forth. The 5th have none of these.
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First off I think you are presupposing facts not in evidence in this regards? Exactly how many American made MMO's have servers designed specifically for play outside the US? In that I mean, how many have taken the trouble to launch EU versions of said game? Things may have changed since I played them, but answer me this? Does UO have a EU based Server set? Does DAoC, does SWG? I would assume EQ does right? To be honest I dont' know the answer to any of those questions, so it goes out to everyone.
Where I think you have presupposed in error is that how could a company plan for the addition of what I shall refer to as extra-continental server support, until such a time as its determined whether or not the game is succesful enough to justify the expense of such a venture?
This is not an issue of German Law, I think that has been established Ad Nauseum already. What I suggest and have always adherred to is that initially the 5th was never meant to be changed because at the time of their implimentation there was no evidence to support the need for servers outside the continental US. Obviously the game has become a huge hit and therefor now requires such, so as to better support its overseas clients. In a recent intereview one Michael Crouch, a PR Rep for NCSoft gave an interview where he specically stated "We're also rolling out the game in Europe and we've making some adjustments for the world market"
This change, whether required legally or not, is in fact one of those changes, that was apparently decided upon by the Money Men at NCSoft, not by States et all. I think we are beyond arguing whether or not the 5th would fall under German Law or not (for the record I agree with you that this was a non issue), the question remains however, why if not needed did the change get made? We were told that this was done to move the story forward, but as evidenced by what we have seen to date, there is well, no evidence of that. We were promised two things by States "A Council and a War", we have the Council (yuck), but where is our War, or more importantly (to me anyways), our STORY that moves us Forward?
Have Fun !
PS: I apologize if this issue is hijacking the thread, that was not my intent, honest!
Yeah, my understanding is that all souvenirs won from previous story arcs with the 5th Column will remain the same. So we get to keep our letters from Requiem (perhaps the coolest souvenir of all that I've seen from reports from players who have gone through them all) if we already got them.
I was really happy to hear that the above would be the case too. I can probably learn to live with the Council stuff, or at least ignore it. The history plaques were something else though, glad they were an oversight.
I've been trying to decide whether to attempt to rush from level 32 to level 36 to finish out the rest of the 5th Column story before Issue 3 arrives to vaporize it. Lack of time and the buzzkill of powergaming kind of nixes that though, I think.
Oops, walked away at work and forgot whatever else it was I intended to say. So I'll leave it as it is.
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A Neo-Fascist by any other name would still smell as sweet, would it not?
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If it was a rose and written by Shakespeare maybe, but I like my Neo-fascists sans the Dishrag and Cobra Commander wannabeishness, and especially not seeming like they finally figured out what happens in that 1000 monkey/typewriter scenario. This one just smells like [censored} to me. Now about that pie?
Have fun !
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Have you considered that maaaaybe...JUST MAYBE...
There might be an event about it on the live servers?
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I have considered it. Does that mean it's going to happen? I mean, come on, all they have to do is say "there will be an event/TF/Story Arc about it on the live servers, it will be much, much more significant than two spawns, and it will explain the hows and whys of the war between the 5th Column and the Council". Is that so much to ask? No spoilers necessary, just tell us that we will get in-game content explaining what is going on. The fact that they won't say something this simple makes me think it isn't going to happen.
You seem to think it's logical to assume that there will be an interesting event explaining the change.
I think it is logical to assume that there will not be anything more than some spawns, a couple newspaper articles, and a couple forum posts, ala the Rularuu invasion, because that's what they've given us in the past as an "event".
If we got spawns as frequent and widespread as the invasion, I'd be happier than I am with what is on test, but really, I want story, not just more combat that I can get anywhere.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
I'm answering Moonlighter's post because it was well thought out and well worded, not because I'm taking issue with it!
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I disagree with your sentiment. For me changes have the following importance:
- Bug fixes.
- Class and power balance.
- Content difficulty.
- New content. (This includes mission customization)
- New costume options.
- New power options.
- New ATs or primary/secondary pools.
- Large quality of life features.
I assume bug fixes will always trickle out in minor updates.
The number one issue argued on these boards is class and power balance. For a player with a "problematic" build this is the number one quality of life issue for the game that leads to the most frustration. This, IMO, should be top priority. Not having stacking armor for existing builds for example is criminal. It really affects the everyday quality of life for those players. To introduce a new 50+ only AT that does have stacking armor when you haven't finished it for existing characters is like a kick to the groin for them. Tanks issues are another problem. Things like this should have number one priority since these impact the affected players the most.
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I agree mostly. About the priority... absolutely. About the kick.. not so much. Statesman has publicly apologized for being slow on the uptake about Tankers and has said several times that this is his number one priority. The Stackable defenses for Kheldians has been in the works for some time. I think that the changes to an AT are a time consuming process as is creating a new one. The fact that the new one came out before the 'stackable fix' is bad timing more than anything.
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Second is content difficulty. The game has a wide variety of players with a wide variety of effectiveness. Everyone wants a fun experience. The second most commented on issue here seems to be mission difficulty. Therefore the difficulty slider is probably the number one feature of this update. I think it is overshadowed by the difficulty increase - fewer people need it now that difficulty has been jacked, and the lack of an option to reduce difficulty is something I personally don't agree with. I also think a mission to mission slider would have made more sense and made the game more playable. None-the-less the ability to change mission difficulty in some form was very important to the game - bigger than anything else in this update.
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I am glad there isn't an 'easier' setting. There is no need. If you are soloing it is VERY easy with the 'support AT's..' Just slow. VERY slow. I have several Controllers and one Tanker past the magic '24'th level'.. NONE are threatened soloing in missions... ever.... The last threatening boss any of my character faced were the Bone Daddies... They are VERY nasty at the levels that they live.
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Striga Isle provides more content and more world. This is always excellent and much needed. This is an important part of the ongoing game. Right now I could almost level up 2 characters and never do the same missions. I would like to see the game provide 4 different mission paths for maximum replayability.
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Totally agree.. And the fact that Cryptic is this far in less than a year is really amazing (IMHO)
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I personally think that *every* update should have additional character costume options. It gives existing characters a chance to freshen up their look and adds visual diversity to characters. This should be generic options in addition to specials like capes and auras. More patterns, or more options on current costume pieces. The fact is that everyone is looking for something that could affect *their* character every update and fresh costume options are one thing that does this - even if I don't use them I will likely spend time playing with them at icon.
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Again.. Totally agree. 
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The problem is that most players have one or more characters they are already playing. They don't want specialty stuff like the Kheldians. If you want the 50 crowd to revisit content then the devs could have easily added new AT options right at level 1. If you added, say, a two gun character and a staff fighter instead of the Kheldians how many high level players would have rolled one up to check them out? Probably the same number as those who tried the Kheldians, but you are giving more casual players the same options. I don't see what advantage making level 50 ATs gave to the game - better more generic and accessible options would have served the same purpose and added much more to the game. This would have affected the game at all levels and still given a reason for the 50+ crowd to revisit low level content. I am not saying the Kheldians are a bad idea, I just think that they are not an efficient use of the devs time. The impact on the game is too low for the work required. Two new basic ATs would have a much bigger and better impact on the game for the same amount of work.
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Actually among the epic AT's I think that Kheldian's SHOULD be unlocked only by the most experienced players. Unlike all of the existing AT's and several of the mentioned upcomming AT's the Kheldians have too many ways to 'gimp' themselves to give to the newbies. Giving new (and most often) inexperienced players an AT that WILL be gimped without some thought would be criminal.
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The new epic power pools are cute. I like them. There seems to be an imbalance in the various sets but I like them. I am really disappointed that they did not offer the blaster/defender crowd some kind of limited statis protection. It is much needed at that level. But they give the high level types new toys which is good.
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Yep.. and if they get the ballance close they will be just brilliant to make the 40's distinct from the 30's...
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All in all this is an okay update and the reason people are not enthusiastic is that there is too little that affects the day to day play of the average player. Issue #2 was much better. New katana and MA animations meant that there was a large influx of players rolling new characters to try them out. Everyone 20+ was scrambling to get capes and at higher levels auras. Everyone was rushing to finish the respec mission. There was a huge flood of activity.
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But that was not the impression at the time.. Capes! why do we have to wait till 20? Auras! Cool.. but 30! I'll never get to 30! New animations! What if I don't want to play a Scrapper? The Hollows! OH How horrible. you get stuck and the missions are <bleep> and if you fall off in the wrong place you are facing +8 baddies with a MILE run to get to safety yadda yadda yadda yadda.
The "huge flood of activity" was in and amongst all the whining.. Just like now... Just like issue one. I expect Strigga to be a HUGE hit. and lots of other things too.
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Issue #3 has none of that. Quality of life character enhancements fell to the wayside. New character options affect very few people. Other that the mission slider there isn't that much that directly affects my main character or even any of my alts. This was IMO a mistake. Issue #3 have failed to generate the same excitement for these reasons.
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Uhhmm? you seem to be playing hth characters (I don't know... I just get the feeling) Hitting fleeing vilians from behind is HUGE! and there's a list of others too...
the 'drain/buff' power change is BIG for those support classes.
Increased XP for the 'tough' baddies (the previously mentioned Bone Daddy's I hope! 
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Temporary powers not expiring when you log off is pretty big for the 'casual' type who gets them.
Rescalable windows for the map and toggles for JUST the information I want is pretty big (IMHO)
the changes to Fear affects is HUGE to those with fear powers.. and that's Scrappers, Defenders, and controllers... pretty big.
These are not all quality of life issues.. but most are. and they are huge. The door clicking when you're moving bug/notbug is gone...
minor changes that are BIG if all added together.
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If I was to to give the Devs advice on issue #4 and later, here's what is would be:
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Skipping most of the suggestions as I think Cryptic is doing a bang up job other than to second your request for MORE COSTUME OPTIONS!!!!!
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- We are all waiting for PvP so we can have new topics to whine about and new NERFs to call for when dealing with other player ATs. I am anxiously awaiting the "NERF Elec blasters" posts.
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lol... the whining will merely get LOUDER for a time. 
"I burn my candle at both ends, it will not last the night. But Ahhh my friends and Ohh my foes it makes a lovely light!"
As far as I can tell, the "story" of Paragon is advanced through the Paragon Times. CoH is, at best, a game based on this story, just as the comic is a comic based on this story. Why do I say this?
Case in point: The 5th/Council War
On any given server, you've got thousands of heroes, of whom several hundred are likely to be pounding on 5th soldiers at any given time. Has this had any effect on their presence in Paragon City? No. But a mutiny in the ranks occurs in the Paragon Times, and suddenly the 5th are gone with the exception of a few pockets of combat between 5th and Council members in IP and PI. There are no new story arcs for players to participate in the 5th/Council War, just the old missions renamed. For all intents and purposes the war happened in the Paragon Times, and the game has been changed to reflect this new history of Paragon City. Even contacts refer to the Council as if they'd always existed, and make no mention of the 5th as if they never did.
As it stands the actual player characters have no impact, either individually or collectively, on the story of Paragon City. Now I don't expect the Paragon Times to reflect the day to day activities of the players in the game, nor do I expect unique missions for each and every character. However, consider this alternative to the current handling of the 5th/Council War:
Between Update #3 and Update #4, you introduce 5th/Council missions and storylines that deal with the war. Contacts refer to the Council as a "new and mysterious threat" when they mention them. With update #4 you conclude the war with the 5th vanquished and the Council in place, and report that the collective actions of the heroes of Paragon City, as reflected in the missions we've played, has resulted in the demise of the 5th, but inadvertantly paved the way for the Council to solidify its hold. Over the 3 months between updates, you slowly replace 5th Spawns with "5th vs. Council" spawns and then replace these with Council spawns.
Two more quick examples: The Rularuu "invasion" and the Holloween Event
Did y'all notice how when the Ru invaded, none of the contacts seemed to notice? Worse still, none of the pedestrians did either. I guess they were too busy worrying about Skulls & Hellions stealing their purses to notice GIANT FLYING EYEBALLS swatting heroes like flies. Near as I can figure, we're the only ones who were scared of them
Same thing with the Holloween event. Giant Pumpkin Heads running around town, and my low level contact wants me to go out and stop the Skulls rampage.
Given that these were limited time events, and seeing how much work went into the models, animations, etc. Would it have been too much to ask that our contacts at least acknowledged these other more immediate concerns? A temporary suspension of "business as usual" to focus on the immediate threat would done wonders for the feeling of immersion.
You don't need to single out any individual players to make the population as whole feel like it is a part of the "story" being played out, but as it is, we are locked into this "eternal now" where each issue the back-story of the game is updated, and the clock moved forward, but where the events within the game have no consequence.
Personally, I think having ephemeral content, that reflects the current state of the "story" and changes (or goes away) as the story evolves and new content was introduced, would keep me interested and excited far more than all the badges, Epic ATs, and Auxilliary Power Pools put together.
I know this was a thread about updates and casual players, but as a casual player (highest char is 36 after 7 months) , what I'd most like to see is the overall story of CoH reflected in the game I'm currently playing, not integrated or retconned into the back-story. If the Devs focused on this, game balance and bug fixes from update to update, I would gladly forgo just about every other new feature.
[b]Frost Lightning - lvl 50 Ele/Ice[/b]
Kick Asterisk - lvl 43 MA/SR
Frigid Bridget- lvl 20 Ice/Cold
GrammaRadiation lvl 20 Rad/Rad
Helena Ann Baskett lvl 29 Necro/Poisen
The Very Bad Seed lvl 6 Plant/Thorn
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I just said this wasn't because of the German market. If it was, the 5th would be gone completely and the replacement wouldn't just be another pseudo-Nazi organization. Oh, and there wouldn't have been evidence of the Council's existence since beta.
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I would be very very interested in seeing this evidence that you are referring to. Got a source? Screenshot? Story Arc stuff?
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People have mentioned on these forums seeing The Council on the data booth things in beta. I wasn't a beta tester, so I can't say I saw them firsthand.
I have actually seen 5th in Peregrine Island in Update 3 with my own eyes. I didn't think to take a screenshot. Next time I see them, I will.
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Two more quick examples: The Rularuu "invasion" and the Holloween Event
Did y'all notice how when the Ru invaded, none of the contacts seemed to notice? Worse still, none of the pedestrians did either. I guess they were too busy worrying about Skulls & Hellions stealing their purses to notice GIANT FLYING EYEBALLS swatting heroes like flies. Near as I can figure, we're the only ones who were scared of them
Same thing with the Holloween event. Giant Pumpkin Heads running around town, and my low level contact wants me to go out and stop the Skulls rampage.
Given that these were limited time events, and seeing how much work went into the models, animations, etc. Would it have been too much to ask that our contacts at least acknowledged these other more immediate concerns? A temporary suspension of "business as usual" to focus on the immediate threat would done wonders for the feeling of immersion.
You don't need to single out any individual players to make the population as whole feel like it is a part of the "story" being played out, but as it is, we are locked into this "eternal now" where each issue the back-story of the game is updated, and the clock moved forward, but where the events within the game have no consequence.
Personally, I think having ephemeral content, that reflects the current state of the "story" and changes (or goes away) as the story evolves and new content was introduced, would keep me interested and excited far more than all the badges, Epic ATs, and Auxilliary Power Pools put together.
I know this was a thread about updates and casual players, but as a casual player (highest char is 36 after 7 months) , what I'd most like to see is the overall story of CoH reflected in the game I'm currently playing, not integrated or retconned into the back-story. If the Devs focused on this, game balance and bug fixes from update to update, I would gladly forgo just about every other new feature.
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This is such a cool idea.
I hope some Dev is reading this and takes a few notes on how to really bring home these invasion type scenarios in this game.
How friggin cool would it have been to be solving the mystery of the Halloween event or the Rularuu event through missions?
Heck, even if you finished it out with a Positron like, 'Thanks for the hard work, the Freedom Phalanx rode in and saved the dam thanks to you!'.
That would just be too cool.
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I love Statesman, but I think we need to be fair here:
Global chat is not content-related under any circumstance whatsover. If anything, the clunkiness is more aimed toward powergamers than casual gamers. Also, if you're soloing, why would you need global chat? (Ie., a team-oriented feature.)
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If you're a casual gamer, you're more likely than a PGer to be an alt addict. PGers want to level up, alt-addicts just love playing around with stuff. The ability to use a global "handle" across servers means you can alt yourself to death with like 80 characters and STILL be in touch with your buddies.
If you're soloing, you need global chat more than a team player, because you're more likely to need a buddy to be Johnny-on-the-spot to help you defuse 3 bombs or pull 2 levers simultaneously, and even soloers like to complete those, so they team up oh-so-briefly (at least, that's how I am when I solo).
Also, Statesman wasn't explicit but Kheldians bring fun goodies to OTHER players besides the L50s that play them.
(1) They're new group mates to learn to interact with and
(2) You can join them on their story arcs. I really enjoyed the opening story arcs - which don't come with a souvenir but are still pretty fun - that accompany the kheldian ATs. I will be grouping at L2 with my new kheldians.
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For me changes have the following importance:
- Bug fixes.
- Class and power balance.
- Content difficulty.
- New content. (This includes mission customization)
- New costume options.
- New power options.
- New ATs or primary/secondary pools.
- Large quality of life features.
I assume bug fixes will always trickle out in minor updates.
The number one issue argued on these boards is class and power balance. For a player with a "problematic" build this is the number one quality of life issue for the game that leads to the most frustration. This, IMO, should be top priority. Not having stacking armor for existing builds for example is criminal. It really affects the everyday quality of life for those players. To introduce a new 50+ only AT that does have stacking armor when you haven't finished it for existing characters is like a kick to the groin for them. Tanks issues are another problem. Things like this should have number one priority since these impact the affected players the most.
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Yes, these things should have priority, but they are not all as simple to solve as you make them out to be. Tankers, for example, are clamoring for more damage (as are most non blaster/scrapper ATs). The devs have to take into account how a change will affect the AT itself, balance between the ATs, and the game as a whole. Suppose they do give tanks more damage. Now they have to consider that endurance usage and recharge rate of those attack powers were based on the original level of damage, and whether or not (and how much, if so) the end usage and recharge rate should be modified with the additional damage. They also have to take into account how enhancements will affect the power after it has been modified. Yes, all ATs have various issues, but I think that this game (and the devs) deserve a great deal more credit for balance than they get.
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Second is content difficulty. The game has a wide variety of players with a wide variety of effectiveness. Everyone wants a fun experience. The second most commented on issue here seems to be mission difficulty. Therefore the difficulty slider is probably the number one feature of this update. I think it is overshadowed by the difficulty increase - fewer people need it now that difficulty has been jacked, and the lack of an option to reduce difficulty is something I personally don't agree with. I also think a mission to mission slider would have made more sense and made the game more playable. None-the-less the ability to change mission difficulty in some form was very important to the game - bigger than anything else in this update.
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As for the difficulty slider, I'm rather impressed with how it is being implemented at the present time. As Statesman himself explained, it was added in a way that actually makes the difficult slider a part of the game world, and not just a generic add-on. As far as an immersive gaming experience goes, it is far more impressive to have to visit a contact to change mission difficulty than to walk up to a mission door and say "Oh, how nice of the Freakshow; they put a little level on the door that allows me to make them tougher, should I happen to be assigned to raid this place!" If the difficulty slider allowed for an "easier" setting, you'd have a whole new generation of mission difficulty threads about how it's "unfair that I have to set the slider to an easier setting in order to finish a mission/all missions. It would also cause a great deal of in-game/message board flaming such as "Haha, you have only progessed so far through your story arcs because you always fight green cons when you go into a door.
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I personally think that *every* update should have additional character costume options. It gives existing characters a chance to freshen up their look and adds visual diversity to characters. This should be generic options in addition to specials like capes and auras. More patterns, or more options on current costume pieces. The fact is that everyone is looking for something that could affect *their* character every update and fresh costume options are one thing that does this - even if I don't use them I will likely spend time playing with them at icon.
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I agree with you here. I would love to see additional costume options. However, this is an issue that is extremely non-priority. I think we'd all rather see the devs address other issues instead of coding new underoos for our heros to wear.
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The problem is that most players have one or more characters they are already playing. They don't want specialty stuff like the Kheldians. If you want the 50 crowd to revisit content then the devs could have easily added new AT options right at level 1. If you added, say, a two gun character and a staff fighter instead of the Kheldians how many high level players would have rolled one up to check them out? Probably the same number as those who tried the Kheldians, but you are giving more casual players the same options. I don't see what advantage making level 50 ATs gave to the game - better more generic and accessible options would have served the same purpose and added much more to the game. This would have affected the game at all levels and still given a reason for the 50+ crowd to revisit low level content. I am not saying the Kheldians are a bad idea, I just think that they are not an efficient use of the devs time. The impact on the game is too low for the work required. Two new basic ATs would have a much bigger and better impact on the game for the same amount of work.
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I really have to disagree with you here. "They don't want..."?
You shouldn't presume to speak for any or all level 50 heros.
My roommate is level 50, and enjoys the EATs. As to the rest of that statement, there are already several "new" archetypes available at level one. Already played a Scrapper to level 50? There are four other archetypes you haven't played yet. There are also several different combinations of primary/secondary within each AT. Yes, they have all been there since the game came out, but you can't really call it "old" if you haven't played it before. Don't get me wrong here, I am just as eager as anyone to see brand new ATs.
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All in all this is an okay update and the reason people are not enthusiastic is that there is too little that affects the day to day play of the average player. Issue #2 was much better. New katana and MA animations meant that there was a large influx of players rolling new characters to try them out. Everyone 20+ was scrambling to get capes and at higher levels auras. Everyone was rushing to finish the respec mission. There was a huge flood of activity.
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I do agree with you that Issue 2 content seemed much more exciting than Issue 3 looks to be. I confess I'm not looking forward to Issue 3 as much as I was its predecessor. That is not a jab at the devs of any sort, however. Comparing Issue 2 to Issue 3 is comparing apples to oranges. The evolution of games such as this one has to occur in stages and some stages will seem more exciting to some people than they do to others. I am just one voice anyways. For every "me" that isn't thrilled, there may well be 1000 others that are stoked about it.
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I just said this wasn't because of the German market. If it was, the 5th would be gone completely and the replacement wouldn't just be another pseudo-Nazi organization. Oh, and there wouldn't have been evidence of the Council's existence since beta.
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I would be very very interested in seeing this evidence that you are referring to. Got a source? Screenshot? Story Arc stuff?
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People have mentioned on these forums seeing The Council on the data booth things in beta. I wasn't a beta tester, so I can't say I saw them firsthand.
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Just because they may have planned on removing the 5th since before release doesn't mean they aren't doing it to appeal to the German market. These are smart people. They may have planned this in advance and done it to appeal to the German market. One possible scenario is that they made all this 5th content, and then when someone at NCSoft found out about it, they said "We want you to remove that from the game if/when we release it in Europe." So, maybe they made an escape plan.
I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is a possibility that refutes the "It was planned, therefore has nothing to do with the European release" argument.
I don't think these changes are some sort of knee-jerk reaction. I think they were planned. Why they were planned, however, is what is up for debate.
And to the person in the first quote, the Council is pseudo-Nazi? Whatever. All references to WWII in their descriptions and story arcs are gone, and they are now aliens. They are as Nazi-like as the Lost are now.
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I have actually seen 5th in Peregrine Island in Update 3 with my own eyes. I didn't think to take a screenshot. Next time I see them, I will.
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Don't bother. We know they exist. The issue isn't that the 5th isn't in the game in any form at all, it's that it isn't in the game in any interesting form, beyond the 2 minutes of amusement watching a couple of factions in a spawn kill each other. All the Story Arcs are now Council Arcs. The 5th TF is now a Council TF. 5th Column bases are now Council Bases. This is what we mean when we say they are gone.
It's like if someone ate your meatlover's pizza except for a piece of crust, and then put some cheese bread in it's place. You may like the cheese bread better, but I don't, and telling me that my meatlover's isn't gone because of one piece of crust is insulting.
Besides, I'm sure those spawns will be removed a month or two after Issue 3 comes out, if not sooner.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
About the 5th. I know they were a popular group and all, but they were terribly uncreative. As in Marvel (dun dun dun) had Captain America fight them. The Concil are more creative in the story of City of Heros. And as far as I can tell, they are still Nazis, just now alien Nazis. Wow, that means you can bash Nazis, and I can fight aliens. Horray for us all.
If anything, the 5th Column was the group that MOST needed to have it's storyline advanced. I must say, the Nazi theme, while a decent theme for a villain group, does not provide for terribly interesting themed storylines...alien posessed nazis now, THAT is something to get excited about.
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If anything, the 5th Column was the group that MOST needed to have it's storyline advanced. I must say, the Nazi theme, while a decent theme for a villain group, does not provide for terribly interesting themed storylines...alien posessed nazis now, THAT is something to get excited about.
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Hurray for our agreement. I am pleased that we see eye to eye.
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If anything, the 5th Column was the group that MOST needed to have it's storyline advanced. I must say, the Nazi theme, while a decent theme for a villain group, does not provide for terribly interesting themed storylines...alien posessed nazis now, THAT is something to get excited about.
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Fine then where is the Advancement? They weren't "advanced" they were replaced, and that is a very very big difference. Listen, as much as I loved the 5th, and abhor Das Centrino and his gang of Cobra Commandos and Pro Wrestlers from outerspace, I could perhaps forgive their silliness if there was in fact a storyline that presented this transfer of power, without totally irradicating the history that my character has grown up with. The problem lies not in what changed near as much with how it was changed, because in the end it wasn't advanced, it was changed, nothing less. nothing more.
Have fun !
PS: I also dont cotton too much to being told by the Devs that its White when in fact its very very much Gray.
I admit how they're going about it seems a bit wrong, but the purple energy shooting guys are so much cooler than the guys with guns.
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
Statesman!
Can you please tell us if there will be a TF, Story Arc, or some kind of in-game event that goes in to detail about how and why the Council took over the Fifth column? A single yes or no post would be very appreciated.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Don't sigh. There are a lotta people out there, and you're making most of them very happy. Sorry if we don't post that enough, but I'm sure you know about human nature. 
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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I don't suppose there's any chance of that happening for higher level missions anytime soon, is there?
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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I don't suppose there's any chance of that happening for higher level missions anytime soon, is there?
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If you've been reading the Dev Digest at all you'd know that Statesman has said many times they are going thru all missions/zones/etc and customizing all the time for all levels.
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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I don't suppose there's any chance of that happening for higher level missions anytime soon, is there?
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If you've been reading the Dev Digest at all you'd know that Statesman has said many times they are going thru all missions/zones/etc and customizing all the time for all levels.
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What I've read in the Dev's Digest and what I see in the game are completely different. They've BEEN customizing the missions, I've already seen the stuff on the low level missions, but I swear, if I see another damn office building or cave...
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And even if there is some kind of cool event, it's not going to change the fact that my characters' histories are being rewritten, my souveniers and badges suddenly changing from 5th Column ones to Council ones. Granted, it's a pretty weak change to the actual gameplay, but a pretty significant powerslam to the game's previously established story and to the immersion factor.
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Actually, 5th Column souvineers stay the same, only the badges change. if you run a *new* character through that story arc, they get the new Council Souvineers. The badges changing I think is an issue on how they work- IE, they can't determine wheny ou got them, unlike souvineers, and they need to change to keep integrity with new people getting them.
So your badges change to reflect the allegience change in the werewolves and Vampyres, however, your history is not rewritten, since you still have your letter from Reqium as opposed from "The Center"
Tygara - 50 Claws/Regen/Power Scrapper, Virtue- Member of Kitties on the Prowl.
Shadeburn - Dark/Rad Defender, Virtue- Member of Catch 'Em Crew
Nature Boy' - Elec/Ice Blaster, Virtue - Member of Young Phalanx
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!
...Yeah, yeah. You win. I give up.
Can we eat some pie now?
And how is that retconning? That's just changing the mission for future players, probably so they aren't confused about the 5th and the Council. Wouldn't it only be retconning if they changed the souvenir I have?
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Please, please dont make me regret giving you the benefit of the doubt in regards to knowing what Retconning is, at this late date bub. Seriously go have some pie, obviously your blood sugar is low at the moment. Yeah that's it!
On a more serious note. What you suggest regarding confusion is all fine and dandy for "Joe Bloe New Guy" who buys the game after Issue 3 goes live, but um, wait a sec? What about the 200K+ of us who are here now, havent gotten to see every scrap of content yet, and have been financially supporting this game since launch? Um, don't we count for something? Or more simply, what about us existing players who happen to like our Neo Fascist Villian organizations as they are right now instead of some Vanilla, dishrag wearing Cobra Commando look-a-like? If they leave the existing badges and souvenirs that you have already collected the same, then what good is a letter from Requiem, if you never get the chance to face him? How is that less confusing?
When you change everything from how it was to something different, right down to the history behind the story, that is what Retconning is all about. This is akin to rewriting Captain America to where instead of facing the Red Skull and using a Sheild, he faced The Red Coat and used a Flintlock? See the similarities? Same Hero, Same Villian, just repackaged as something totally different. Welcome to Retconning 101.
Now about that pie? Will you have Blueberry or Apple? I suggest the Blueberry, I hear the Apple has fallen pretty far from the tree.
Have fun