The Theory of Updates and the Casual Player
By
Ariel_NA,
Posted on: 2004-11-29 14:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Lotsa good points in your post GrimReaperX2, I'll just address one of them. I still remember thinking that this is a "super-hero" game. My definition of "Super-hero" isn't spending a lot of time in a given 2-3 mob encounter. I'd like to keep those fights short if possible. If anything, I don't mind, less hps and more minions...
'Tis a cryin' shame that the solution is to increase hps. This doesn't mean that I won't adjust, it just means that it is a shame. Hopefully the xp boost will be worth it.
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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I don't suppose there's any chance of that happening for higher level missions anytime soon, is there?
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It is already happening. Tyrant's mission is now in a Lair type thing. Mother Mayhem's mission (on the praetorian arc I believe) is in a Hospital like setting. In Update 2, they redid the carnie outdoor mission and put a tent.
You obviously don't group with other people otherwise you would know of these changes and upcoming changes.
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I'm not talking about the 40+ missions, I'm not in my 40's yet. I mean, the missions in the 30's really need some help. After a couple dozen straight Oranbega missions followed by a crapload of generic caves and office buildings, it's getting kinda old.
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Exactly. You will stay (I don't mean Pep_Cat specifically, just any player with this same feeling) and make a new hero instead of quitting.
In the business world, that's called:
Keep giving them a reason to continue to purchase your product (or in this case pay the monthly fee).
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Hell yeah; My highest toon is a Spines/Regen scrapper at 27 (Just got the level last night, soloing, woohoo!), but I probably could be a *lot* higher level if it wasn't equally as fun to create a new toon just to try different play styles and powers.
Feel like being more of a rear-echelon support char? Take out the controller
Feel like buffing and healing the living bejeebers out of a team ? Take out the defender.
Feel like sniping away, supporting the tanks and scrappers ? Take out the blaster.
Feel like being in the middle of it all with a maestrom of hellfury all around you ? Take out the tanker
Feel like soloing a bit and filling baddies full o' spines ? Take out the scrapper (And Ripper: COOOOOOL! 
)
Oh yeah, this game is *so* worth the $18 a month
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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Keep the mission customization coming. New content is good, but being surprised by old content when you experience it again with an alt is pretty nice too
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Yeah, no kidding: Add me to the list of people who really appreciate this kind of work (going back and adding new art);
I played Ultima Online for a couple of years: Loved the game, but there was always a nagging pet peeve: The content was *identical* whenever you started a new character. How unrealistic is that ?
In CoH, with these content updates, you actually see people with different outfits on, different dialogue, different "feel" when you go back to re-do some missions or when making a new alt;
I won't go as far as to say it makes it "a new game every time you play", but it's nice to actually *want* to take a few extra minutes in a mission just to *look around* to see what's new and different from the last time you played - it definitely adds to the passive entertainment value as opposed to the active, when you're always performing specific actions to achieve a goal.
(Just as an example, I went into faultline a week or so ago, just out of curiosity, to see what level the mobs were: I ended up spending 45 minutes in there, just jumping around to see the scenery - it was cool as all heck and I didn't fight or look for a single battle - just there for the scenery - Not many games can say that players will spend time in an area just to look around for the simple pleasure of looking around
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Two more quick examples: The Rularuu "invasion" and the Holloween Event
Did y'all notice how when the Ru invaded, none of the contacts seemed to notice? Worse still, none of the pedestrians did either. I guess they were too busy worrying about Skulls & Hellions stealing their purses to notice GIANT FLYING EYEBALLS swatting heroes like flies. Near as I can figure, we're the only ones who were scared of them
Same thing with the Holloween event. Giant Pumpkin Heads running around town, and my low level contact wants me to go out and stop the Skulls rampage.
Given that these were limited time events, and seeing how much work went into the models, animations, etc. Would it have been too much to ask that our contacts at least acknowledged these other more immediate concerns? A temporary suspension of "business as usual" to focus on the immediate threat would done wonders for the feeling of immersion.
You don't need to single out any individual players to make the population as whole feel like it is a part of the "story" being played out, but as it is, we are locked into this "eternal now" where each issue the back-story of the game is updated, and the clock moved forward, but where the events within the game have no consequence.
Personally, I think having ephemeral content, that reflects the current state of the "story" and changes (or goes away) as the story evolves and new content was introduced, would keep me interested and excited far more than all the badges, Epic ATs, and Auxilliary Power Pools put together.
I know this was a thread about updates and casual players, but as a casual player (highest char is 36 after 7 months) , what I'd most like to see is the overall story of CoH reflected in the game I'm currently playing, not integrated or retconned into the back-story. If the Devs focused on this, game balance and bug fixes from update to update, I would gladly forgo just about every other new feature.
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This is such a cool idea.
I hope some Dev is reading this and takes a few notes on how to really bring home these invasion type scenarios in this game.
How friggin cool would it have been to be solving the mystery of the Halloween event or the Rularuu event through missions?
Heck, even if you finished it out with a Positron like, 'Thanks for the hard work, the Freedom Phalanx rode in and saved the dam thanks to you!'.
That would just be too cool.
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While I agree with your ideals, I don't think it's realistic to expect something like this. I mean, What you're basically suggesting is that they:
A) Derail the normal operations of the game for the sake of a temporary event, which is inevitably going to piss off anybody who doesn't want to deal with the event itself. Think about all the people that complained about the Rulaaru event simply because their characters couldn't well handle the spawns? Any villian group is going to have it's strengths and weaknesses, meaning that there are going to be heroes who excel against them and heroes that suck against them. My regen scrapper kicked rularru [censored]. my fire blaster (a soloing powerhouse, normally) got his [censored] shot out of the sky in -seconds-.
So who do they try to please with these event-specific missions? Team players? Soloists? Casual players? Hardcore players? And in ANY EVENT, it all basically means that
B) -they'd have to go through all the trouble of writing, coding and creating missions, all for the sake of a relative handful of their userbase, for -one- weekend, after which they'd have to throw them away. (otherwise it wouldn't be an -event-, would it?) That's a LOT of work to please a pretty small portion of the player base for a limited period of time. then when it's over, they'd be constantly hearing the ******* of people who had to work, or who didn't have time to complete all the missions, or the TF, or whatever.
While I agree that a story arc or TF dealing with the changeover would be a cool and very doable idea, no temporary event is going to exist on the scale that you're asking for here. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. I'd love the devs to prove me wrong on this, but I think it's maybe a little unreasonable to expect them to.
Just my 2 inf. ;p
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First, I'm glad that you agree with me regarding the incorporation of story transitions into the game itself. Given the relatively regular period between updates, it should be possible to use this interval as a means to drive the story forward, rather than have the story lurch forward from one update to the next.
As for "events" I don't know specifically how CoH is architected, but...
Adding new "defeat x" missions and appropriate descriptions, into the contact mission database *should* be fairly trivial, and in any event, no more work than building a bunch of new monsters with 3D models, monster descriptions, powersets, badges, etc. as well as rigging all the doors to open once per minute per player. As been on the software development side of the online games industry for the better part of 10 years now, so, while I don't specifically how CoH is designed, I do have a fairly good idea, and, unless they're doing something really strange, this isn't that big a deal.
As for "derailing normal operations", that would imply that the ability to incorporate limited time-specific content isn't part of the "normal operation" of the game. If you're right about this, that would represents a serious flaw in the design and/or implementation of the system as the devs have chosen to actually include time-specific "events" in the game. It is my hope that these events will become more common, and the developers will refactor the system to incorporate these events into the fabric of the game, rather than simply bolting them on, as the appear to have done with the Ru invasion and the Holloween event.
With regard to pissing off people who don't want to deal with the event or who might miss it, while this may be a real concern of the devs, it would be unfortunate, as it reinforces the idea that the game is not the actual vehicle for the story, but simply a game based on the story, as I originally suggested. (Kinda like the game version of "The Incredibles" - it may give you the feeling of being in the world of the Pixar movie, but the story of "The Incredibles" isn't what happens in the game, but what appears on the big screen.) If these "events" are supposed to be part of the story, and the story is supposed to be driven through the game, than dealing with these events, or choosing to ignore them in favor of other priorities, or missing them if you're not around, would be part of the game as well. The option to treat them as if they weren't happening, or never happened at all after they were over, would not.
Unfortunately, this is not how the devs designed, or, I assume, envisioned, the game. CoH *could* have been implemented as a fictional world, instead it is a game based on that fictional world.
In their defense, CoH is the first MMORPG I've played for more than a month (still going strong after 7 months at this point) which is a testament to everything they've done right so far. My criticism stems from a desire to see the MMORPG mature as a medium to the point where it actually becomes a vehicle through which a long-running "story" can be told, not simply the reflection of the story being told in the Paragon Times. My hope is that as CoH evolves this will become more and more the case for both casual and hardcore players alike.
[b]Frost Lightning - lvl 50 Ele/Ice[/b]
Kick Asterisk - lvl 43 MA/SR
Frigid Bridget- lvl 20 Ice/Cold
GrammaRadiation lvl 20 Rad/Rad
Helena Ann Baskett lvl 29 Necro/Poisen
The Very Bad Seed lvl 6 Plant/Thorn
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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Maybe if you used customization in a way consistent with its definition people would have known what you were talking about.
Then you wouldn't have post the heavy sighs.
It is being used consistent with its definition. It is not consistent with what some people assumed.
Illiteracy is curable. Go back to school and graduate this time.
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To make or alter to individual or personal specifications:
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"Say, Statesman, let's customize those early 5th column missions so that they actually look like 5th column bases."
"Say, Statesman, let's alter to individual specifications those early 5th column missions so that they actually look like 5th column bases."
You assumed it meant that you could customize the missions. I'm sorry that you were disappointed. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but it was not an inaccurate use of words.
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Mission customization: Choosing between "regular" mobs and +2 level mobs is not really what I would call a customized mission.
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Sigh. That isn't at all what I meant. Mission Customization means, well, a mission has been customized. It's where we go back over old missions and add new art & functionality.
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You also forgot to mention those nfity giant monsters (Octopus, ghost ship) ...
It's just that the really sexy new toys this update cycle are the powers and archetypes-- and there's no way I'll be able to level up to play with them before Issue 4, if ever. I think that's why this thread exists. You have some decidely shiny toys that will be locked away from a lot of your players who simply don't have hundreds of hours to spend on the game
It happens. *shrug* At least Issue 4 will give us the skills system as its centerpiece, so I'll be able to play with that. Hopefully.
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Actually, our updates are intended to cover ALL levels (as much as possible).
Auxiliary Power Pools - levels 40 up
Kheldians - level 50
Council - all levels
Striga Isle - levels 20 - 30
Mission Customization - all levels
Global Chat - all levels
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Naming those last two things as being for all levels is a dodge. You're not giving people under 20 anything more to do in the game. I consider those to be bells and whistles. Nice, but that's not what we're griping about.
On the flipside, you did gave them the Hollows last go around, so there's no need to try and justify yourself on that end of the game. Low end is fine IMHO.
The problem is with 30+.
The epic power pools not being available until 41 is a slap in the face. It makes levels 30-40 feel like grind. LOTS and lots of grind. And they are the levels when we start to face the really hard zones and enemies... IOW it's when we really start to NEED the extra power.
You should have given the epic pools at 30 (or even 34 would be good, to keep the progression of power at least feel consistant), and focused more on adding missions and a new enemy for 40-50.
'Cause I hate to break it to you... but there is still PLENTY of content from 20-30. Striga is nice, but it's one of those zones that I wonder if I'll ever even see... like Fautline or Boomtown. How many people even visted those except when hunting for badges?
Content starts to run out after 30. It's the high end that needs the most help, not the middle.
A side suggestion... up the xp for patrolling in hazard zones to match going on missions. Otherwise I see no point for any of them.
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As for the original poster... the reason some of us feel that the game is too geared for the hardcore gamer is the severe imbalance in the ATs... which forced the game to get harder and the need for a difficulty slider that only goes up.
Each AT has one insanely broken power-build. Of the reamaining sets, half are average, and at least 1 in each AT is nearly worthless. Rather than nerf these glaring problems (though they are finally nerfing regen and fire tankers... THANK YOU), they've mostly raised the bar of the game to meet their levels. The difficulty of the enemies seems to assume all green enhancements of the maximum level you can have, ignoring whether it's realstic to afford them or not... because they know the uber-gamers would find a way. On top of that, rather than put a hard cap on enhancements that actually matters to encourage people to round out their characters, they have a system that encourages 6-slotting for maximum power.
As a result, you have these uber-builds that make the mostly-silent masses of concept character builds feel left out. I've given up playing some ATs because they are not needed. More than a couple friends of mine have done the same, even leaving the game altogehter in some cases as it is leaving them behind.
It's going to be brutal when CoV goes into open testing. I'm not sure if I'm looking forward to it or not.
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My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
Your examples are way past stretching common usage.
You can save your sympathy as I am much happier knowing what it is that he actually meant with the clumsy description. I love the updates to the old missions whereas I find the concept of a mission difficulty control in a MMORPG ridiculous.
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I don't really agree that team-based content is screwing anyone at all. The people getting "screwed" as you say, were the soloing casual gamers anyway. More teaming does not mean less soloing.
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That is starting to change with the new mob HP in I3.
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I think there are "casual team players" and "casual soloers" So claims that team based content is screwing the "casual gamer" aren't accurate. they're screwing SOME casual gamers. And some more then others, at that. The problem is, when someone feels they're getting screwed, they're rarely calm enough to make such distinctions.
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That would be why I said "one aspect of casual gaming."
That is also why in my original post on this thread I pointed out that there are different kinds of casual gamers. I thought I summed it up pretty well, not that Statesman even wants to touch the issue of casual game play or hardcore game play.
The very last thing Statesman wants to do is admit that the direction of the game is turning it into an EQ clone with spandex. A month ago I would have said that this game being compared to EQ archtypes was ridiculous, however after the new Epic ATs were released and the other new content that is being release was shown to me I think that they are trying to implement encouraged (forced) teaming.
I admit that there are some uber builds, but this is a regrettable necessity of variety; I have yet to see any game with any semblance of variety that did not have at least one character type being head and shoulders above the others. But the difficulty of the game is not such that the non-uber builds are getting screwed by it. A purely mediocre character can solo; admittedly not as well as some character types, but then not all character types are designed to be able to solo.
And as for characters being not needed, I play something of an uber-build I guess, my DM/Regen scrapper (I started that guy before I started reading the forums, by the way, so I didn't know it was the flavor of the month, I just liked the idea). I LOVE teaming compared to soloing. It's much more fun for me. And yet, I can NEVER find a team. People don't invite me and ignore me when I invite them. Makes me feel kinda useless, you know?
Well, personally I used to say that I would always team with a DM/Regen scrapper. Until I teamed with a few that seemed a little to crazy and debt happy. They actually did not mind getting debt, while I hated it. So the play styles simply did not match.
Also have you ever seen a high level /Regen scrapper exemplared down below IH? Simply Hilarious. The first time they die, they sit there and go "Wow, I never even bother to look at my green bar anymore."
That last was priceless when I heard it for the first time. Anyway I am just saying that I am alot more carefull in picking up /Regen scrappers than I used to because of all the FOTM idiots out there who don't really know how to use their characters.
Also if you think you have a problem getting a team you should try playing a Dark Defender. I still get tells that go like this:
GroupLeader: "So are you a bubbler?"
Me: "No, I am a debuffer."
GroupLeader: "So you are a specialized healer?"
Me: "No, I am a debuffer with other abilities."
GroupLeader: "Sorry we either need a dedicated healer or Bubbler everything else sucks in a group. You really have a solo build."
At this point I just laugh at the GroupLeader. Then, I write his name down on a list of people that I will not help until they beg; and if they are very rude on a list of people that I will never help.
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Well, personally I used to say that I would always team with a DM/Regen scrapper. Until I teamed with a few that seemed a little to crazy and debt happy. They actually did not mind getting debt, while I hated it. So the play styles simply did not match.
Also have you ever seen a high level /Regen scrapper exemplared down below IH? Simply Hilarious. The first time they die, they sit there and go "Wow, I never even bother to look at my green bar anymore."
That last was priceless when I heard it for the first time. Anyway I am just saying that I am alot more carefull in picking up /Regen scrappers than I used to because of all the FOTM idiots out there who don't really know how to use their characters.
Also if you think you have a problem getting a team you should try playing a Dark Defender. I still get tells that go like this:
GroupLeader: "So are you a bubbler?"
Me: "No, I am a debuffer."
GroupLeader: "So you are a specialized healer?"
Me: "No, I am a debuffer with other abilities."
GroupLeader: "Sorry we either need a dedicated healer or Bubbler everything else sucks in a group. You really have a solo build."
At this point I just laugh at the GroupLeader. Then, I write his name down on a list of people that I will not help until they beg; and if they are very rude on a list of people that I will never help.
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Well this fellow has a right to his own (dead wrong) opinion if he likes. Heck I guess I don't even mind. Thanks though, you have given me a laugh.
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Not everyone likes aliens. Stop assuming everyone wants dinosaurs or aliens or whatever in game. This is not AVP or Joe and Mac, it's city of heroes tyvm
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I agree there. The biggest problem I have with CoH is that the villain groups don't feel that much like comic book villains. About the only group that is all that "super villain like" are the Outcasts and that's because even their minnions have powers. BUt they don't wear costumes so even they don't feel like villains. So when new groups are brought in I would like to see some that are actually comic book villain like (as in powers, costumes and so on. Not characters that are more appopriate for a Fantasy, or SF game).
Hellions and Skulls are fine they are nice thug level (or street level to use a Champions term) early group. Trolls are a natural progression from Hellions and Skulls.
The Vaz and Banished Pantheon are cool but are not really in keeping with the comic book theme and feel more appropriate for a first person Doom style shooter than a super hero game. Also two different types of zombie/undead groups is pushing it (one would have been plenty). The OUtcasts are nice in that they have powers but they are dressed in street clothes.
The 5th, while not super powered, fit the genre i the agent organization subset of Super hero comics (ie. Hydra agents, VIPER, etc). At least up until you reach their werewolves and vampires then it starts feeling like i'm playing a fantasy game again. And their Steel Valkryes don't help either. Too bad they are going away since they are the most super hero genre appropriate group in the game and have the best backstory.
The clockworks are neat, and would fit the super hero genre fine if they stood out (as in nearly every other group were costume based powered villains). But with so many other groups fitting the genre poorl, the Clocks just add to the lack of comic book feel.
The Circle of Thorn. They really, feel like a group more suitable for a fantasy game than a super hero game. However if they were one of the few non-genre appropriate groups then they would be fine as a nice change of pace but since there are so few (any?) groups that wear super villain costumes and feel like comic book villains they feel more appropriate for a fantasy game than a super hero game.
The Devouring Earth. Blah, another group more approriate for a Fantasy genre than a super hero genre. I like their background/story but fighting fantasy style monsters doesn't make me feel like a comic book hero.
Freakshow are ok in that they work as a sort of super powered biker group but much like the Clocks if they were the exception to the villians wear costumes style they would be fine for a change of pace but since none of the other groups feel much like a standard comic book group then they just add to the feeling of playing a fantasy/SF game instead of a super hero game.
The Sky Raiders are a nice group for a high tech villain organization type of deal (just ignore their Sky Skiffs as those ruin the comic book genre feel and turn them into more like SF in the future theme than modern day supers) but they seem to come and go so quick that they are a blip in my character's career.
The Crey are ok, but really guys in lab coats, swat uniforms, mini skirts or suits don't scream comic books to me.
The Family are nice for that street level, Dark champions feel and ganster/mob type of organization is pretty much standard hero fare. Although guys with tommy guns and fight in suits feels less like standard super hero comics and more like 30's era pulp or modern day guns and swords gritty dark supers (ie. Spawn, Whitchblade, etc) than the main stream 4 colour style.
Hydra, the lava based guys in The Hollows, the Kraken, etc They are monsters that feel just as suited if not better suited for a fantasy game than a super hero game.
That's about all i've seen so far (i'm progressing slowly, I play way too many Alts). But the glimpses i've seen of the groups i haven't made it to don't seem that much better. (The Carnivale are women wearing garters belts and fishnet stockings and other things straight from a Victoria's Secret catalog not all that comic book like unless you read only Image comcis). Where are the adversaries that wear costumes similar to us heroes? The typical super villain in the typcial comic book. So far the only thing that makes me feel like this is a super hero comic book game is the fact that the heroes wear costumes and have powers. The people i'm fighting give me very little genre appropriate atmosphere.
If I end up grouping with someone who dresses in medeivel armor and uses a sword (broad or Katana) it feels more like a fantasy game. Or if my teammate is an Assault Rifle character wearing body armor or street clothes or a martial artist in street clothes for al lintents and purposes I'm playing a Halo or Max Payne MMORPG and not a super hero game.
Really the group the most representative of the super hero Genre are the 5th Collumn and they are being removed in favour of the less comic book like Council. Granted they look similar, wear similar uniforms and so on. BUt their names, their background doens't feel like they are leaping from the pages of a super hero comic book more like a Doom or Halo style first person shooter. The thing that made the 5th feel like super villains was their nazi like flavour which makes them an agent level group similar to Hydra, AIM or the Intergang with a Nazi-like refrence). Removing that from their style strips them of their super villain comic book flavour.
It's sad as the game is set up so well to be a super hero game but there are times when it feels very little like a super hero game. Give us some villains that wear costumes! Don't make us wait until City of Villains comes out before we get comic book style villain groups.
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While I agree with your ideals, I don't think it's realistic to expect something like this. I mean, What you're basically suggesting is that they:
A) Derail the normal operations of the game for the sake of a temporary event, which is inevitably going to piss off anybody who doesn't want to deal with the event itself. Think about all the people that complained about the Rulaaru event simply because their characters couldn't well handle the spawns? Any villian group is going to have it's strengths and weaknesses, meaning that there are going to be heroes who excel against them and heroes that suck against them. My regen scrapper kicked rularru [censored]. my fire blaster (a soloing powerhouse, normally) got his [censored] shot out of the sky in -seconds-.
So who do they try to please with these event-specific missions? Team players? Soloists? Casual players? Hardcore players? And in ANY EVENT, it all basically means that
B) -they'd have to go through all the trouble of writing, coding and creating missions, all for the sake of a relative handful of their userbase, for -one- weekend, after which they'd have to throw them away. (otherwise it wouldn't be an -event-, would it?) That's a LOT of work to please a pretty small portion of the player base for a limited period of time. then when it's over, they'd be constantly hearing the ******* of people who had to work, or who didn't have time to complete all the missions, or the TF, or whatever.
While I agree that a story arc or TF dealing with the changeover would be a cool and very doable idea, no temporary event is going to exist on the scale that you're asking for here. It's just not feasible, in my opinion. I'd love the devs to prove me wrong on this, but I think it's maybe a little unreasonable to expect them to.
Just my 2 inf. ;p
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First, I'm glad that you agree with me regarding the incorporation of story transitions into the game itself. Given the relatively regular period between updates, it should be possible to use this interval as a means to drive the story forward, rather than have the story lurch forward from one update to the next.
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I do have to say tho there are things I personally would try to do differently, I don't envy the technical and economic hurdles the devs have to jump to make these kinds of events. For all I know, the stuff I would do differently just isn't feasible. But I'll never know for sure unless they give me a job.
(hint, hint, guys. ¬.¬)
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As for "events" I don't know specifically how CoH is architected, but...
Adding new "defeat x" missions and appropriate descriptions, into the contact mission database *should* be fairly trivial, and in any event, no more work than building a bunch of new monsters with 3D models, monster descriptions, powersets, badges, etc. as well as rigging all the doors to open once per minute per player. As been on the software development side of the online games industry for the better part of 10 years now, so, while I don't specifically how CoH is designed, I do have a fairly good idea, and, unless they're doing something really strange, this isn't that big a deal.
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I think it -looks- simpler then it is.
For one thing, if adding missions was so easy that they could afford to code in temporary story arcs for special events that only last for one weekend, then honestly I think we'd be getting floods and floods of new missions, story arcs, and task forces every update. (not that we're not getting plenty, but I mean, hell, have a couple of guys churn stuff out for four months and pow, you've doubled the content of the game, if it were so easy.
Now, while setting up the framework for a mission might not be super hard, You've also got to write the story text, you've got to set the type of mobs, how many there are, set up a mission map...If you really want to please, it's gonna be hard to get away with using a generic cave or warehouse map, so you're probably going to have to have somebody do some modeling work. Then you've got to tie it to the contacts and you've gotta code it so that while the event is active, your contacts offer this special event/story arc instead of your normal missions, or at the very least alongside them. Then you've got to make sure that it'll go away when the event's over. But then, what if somebody takes a mission and doesn't do it until after the event's over? You've gotta account for that. And you've gotta account for people that might be in the middle of story-arcs, so that they can take a third "special" arc, or put the others on hold. (which is going to PO people who are trying to get through their arcs)
THEN you've gotta bugtest the whole thing. Test and test and test again, all on the internal servers. You've gotta try every imaginable thing that players could do to try and trip a bug on something.
After that, you might want to throw it up on the test server. Then you've gotta see how that goes, and see if -that- uncovers any more bugs. Then you put it up on live, when the day finally comes, and what happens? Well, likely some bug slips past, because somebody ALWAYS finds something you missed, so you get people [censored] about how the devs rushed it out. Then you get people who signed on during the weekend to do a TF or finish one of their mission arcs and pow, they find they're forced into doing something completely different that they weren't wanting to do.
Then you'll have the self proclaimed messiahs of the "casual players" who complain that the devs made this cool story arc for the hardcore gamers because a casual player could never play through it all on a weekend.
That's a LOT of effort to piss off as many people as you please.
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As for "derailing normal operations", that would imply that the ability to incorporate limited time-specific content isn't part of the "normal operation" of the game. If you're right about this, that would represents a serious flaw in the design and/or implementation of the system as the devs have chosen to actually include time-specific "events" in the game. It is my hope that these events will become more common, and the developers will refactor the system to incorporate these events into the fabric of the game, rather than simply bolting them on, as the appear to have done with the Ru invasion and the Holloween event.
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The events are designed to be non-intrusive. Nothing in this game is forced on players. They're never required to do anything. One of the major elements of this game is choice. You don't -have- to do TFs, you don't -have- to street sweep, you don't -have- to do missions. You don't -have- to team, you don't -have- to solo.
Given that this is one of the pervading philosophies behind the dev's design schemes, If you -have- to do this time-sensetive story, it's gonna piss off a lot of people for a very small payoff.
And if they DON'T have to do it, well, you went through all that trouble to code in this elaborate thing that a lot of people aren't going to mess with. When they could have been, say, working on getting the skills system to work right on the internal test servers. ;p
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With regard to pissing off people who don't want to deal with the event or who might miss it, while this may be a real concern of the devs, it would be unfortunate, as it reinforces the idea that the game is not the actual vehicle for the story, but simply a game based on the story, as I originally suggested. (Kinda like the game version of "The Incredibles" - it may give you the feeling of being in the world of the Pixar movie, but the story of "The Incredibles" isn't what happens in the game, but what appears on the big screen.) If these "events" are supposed to be part of the story, and the story is supposed to be driven through the game, than dealing with these events, or choosing to ignore them in favor of other priorities, or missing them if you're not around, would be part of the game as well. The option to treat them as if they weren't happening, or never happened at all after they were over, would not.
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Well, ultimately it's partially a hinderance of the game style. In an MMO, not everybody can be "the hero". we're all "a hero". For all we know, there -was- a resolution to the other events', it's just that Statesman is the hero that resolved it, and we were all the supporting cast that was keeping the minions busy. ;p
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Unfortunately, this is not how the devs designed, or, I assume, envisioned, the game. CoH *could* have been implemented as a fictional world, instead it is a game based on that fictional world.
In their defense, CoH is the first MMORPG I've played for more than a month (still going strong after 7 months at this point) which is a testament to everything they've done right so far. My criticism stems from a desire to see the MMORPG mature as a medium to the point where it actually becomes a vehicle through which a long-running "story" can be told, not simply the reflection of the story being told in the Paragon Times. My hope is that as CoH evolves this will become more and more the case for both casual and hardcore players alike.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I suspect you and I think a lot alike in terms of ideals. Unfortunately, after watching numerous developers over the years, it's that ideas are a lot easier to come up with then they are to implement. That said, a lot of what you're talking about is the kind of thing that the devs WANTED when they concieved the game. A lot of it had to be dropped or changed because of impracticality, but I suspect they're doing their best to incorperate as much of it as they can to the game. Creating a living, breathing storyline that the players can actually affect is a pretty daunting task, tho.
Personally, I think the events have all been cool so far, and they seem to get a little more impressive and elaborate each time. I still think having a temporary event story-arc is infeasible, tho. But I do think they can do more then they've done so far, AND I think they plan to. Keep in mind every aspect of this game is always being evolved and examined. so with each event, they're going to listen to everybody's comments and take them into consideration.
And wow. I talk to much, and this is pretty far from the original topic. ;p
Um. I did say "casual gamer" in the message!
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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Not everyone likes aliens. Stop assuming everyone wants dinosaurs or aliens or whatever in game. This is not AVP or Joe and Mac, it's city of heroes tyvm
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I agree there. The biggest problem I have with CoH is that the villain groups don't feel that much like comic book villains. About the only group that is all that "super villain like" are the Outcasts and that's because even their minnions have powers. BUt they don't wear costumes so even they don't feel like villains. So when new groups are brought in I would like to see some that are actually comic book villain like (as in powers, costumes and so on. Not characters that are more appopriate for a Fantasy, or SF game).
Hellions and Skulls are fine they are nice thug level (or street level to use a Champions term) early group. Trolls are a natural progression from Hellions and Skulls.
The Vaz and Banished Pantheon are cool but are not really in keeping with the comic book theme and feel more appropriate for a first person Doom style shooter than a super hero game. Also two different types of zombie/undead groups is pushing it (one would have been plenty). The OUtcasts are nice in that they have powers but they are dressed in street clothes.
The 5th, while not super powered, fit the genre i the agent organization subset of Super hero comics (ie. Hydra agents, VIPER, etc). At least up until you reach their werewolves and vampires then it starts feeling like i'm playing a fantasy game again. And their Steel Valkryes don't help either. Too bad they are going away since they are the most super hero genre appropriate group in the game and have the best backstory.
The clockworks are neat, and would fit the super hero genre fine if they stood out (as in nearly every other group were costume based powered villains). But with so many other groups fitting the genre poorl, the Clocks just add to the lack of comic book feel.
The Circle of Thorn. They really, feel like a group more suitable for a fantasy game than a super hero game. However if they were one of the few non-genre appropriate groups then they would be fine as a nice change of pace but since there are so few (any?) groups that wear super villain costumes and feel like comic book villains they feel more appropriate for a fantasy game than a super hero game.
The Devouring Earth. Blah, another group more approriate for a Fantasy genre than a super hero genre. I like their background/story but fighting fantasy style monsters doesn't make me feel like a comic book hero.
Freakshow are ok in that they work as a sort of super powered biker group but much like the Clocks if they were the exception to the villians wear costumes style they would be fine for a change of pace but since none of the other groups feel much like a standard comic book group then they just add to the feeling of playing a fantasy/SF game instead of a super hero game.
The Sky Raiders are a nice group for a high tech villain organization type of deal (just ignore their Sky Skiffs as those ruin the comic book genre feel and turn them into more like SF in the future theme than modern day supers) but they seem to come and go so quick that they are a blip in my character's career.
The Crey are ok, but really guys in lab coats, swat uniforms, mini skirts or suits don't scream comic books to me.
The Family are nice for that street level, Dark champions feel and ganster/mob type of organization is pretty much standard hero fare. Although guys with tommy guns and fight in suits feels less like standard super hero comics and more like 30's era pulp or modern day guns and swords gritty dark supers (ie. Spawn, Whitchblade, etc) than the main stream 4 colour style.
Hydra, the lava based guys in The Hollows, the Kraken, etc They are monsters that feel just as suited if not better suited for a fantasy game than a super hero game.
That's about all i've seen so far (i'm progressing slowly, I play way too many Alts). But the glimpses i've seen of the groups i haven't made it to don't seem that much better. (The Carnivale are women wearing garters belts and fishnet stockings and other things straight from a Victoria's Secret catalog not all that comic book like unless you read only Image comcis). Where are the adversaries that wear costumes similar to us heroes? The typical super villain in the typcial comic book. So far the only thing that makes me feel like this is a super hero comic book game is the fact that the heroes wear costumes and have powers. The people i'm fighting give me very little genre appropriate atmosphere.
If I end up grouping with someone who dresses in medeivel armor and uses a sword (broad or Katana) it feels more like a fantasy game. Or if my teammate is an Assault Rifle character wearing body armor or street clothes or a martial artist in street clothes for al lintents and purposes I'm playing a Halo or Max Payne MMORPG and not a super hero game.
Really the group the most representative of the super hero Genre are the 5th Collumn and they are being removed in favour of the less comic book like Council. Granted they look similar, wear similar uniforms and so on. BUt their names, their background doens't feel like they are leaping from the pages of a super hero comic book more like a Doom or Halo style first person shooter. The thing that made the 5th feel like super villains was their nazi like flavour which makes them an agent level group similar to Hydra, AIM or the Intergang with a Nazi-like refrence). Removing that from their style strips them of their super villain comic book flavour.
It's sad as the game is set up so well to be a super hero game but there are times when it feels very little like a super hero game. Give us some villains that wear costumes! Don't make us wait until City of Villains comes out before we get comic book style villain groups.
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You know, a fair chunk of the comic books out there HAVE enemies like the ones you see in CoH. You're only looking at the most common ones like X-Men, Superman, and Batman. But even Batman and Superman fight thugs, encounter magic and the like. There are people like Dr. Strange, a magician. People like Daredevil and The Punisher who seem to spend most of their time beating up baddies not in costume.
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I think there are "casual team players" and "casual soloers" So claims that team based content is screwing the "casual gamer" aren't accurate. they're screwing SOME casual gamers. And some more then others, at that. The problem is, when someone feels they're getting screwed, they're rarely calm enough to make such distinctions.
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That would be why I said "one aspect of casual gaming."
That is also why in my original post on this thread I pointed out that there are different kinds of casual gamers. I thought I summed it up pretty well, not that Statesman even wants to touch the issue of casual game play or hardcore game play.
The very last thing Statesman wants to do is admit that the direction of the game is turning it into an EQ clone with spandex. A month ago I would have said that this game being compared to EQ archtypes was ridiculous, however after the new Epic ATs were released and the other new content that is being release was shown to me I think that they are trying to implement encouraged (forced) teaming.
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My mistake, I should have started with part of the casual players don't get to play in long sessions.
I do be lieve that a ood part of the casual players plays like this, a few short sessions during the week and a longer one (or two ) in the weekend ( at least that is it in my SG)
Also, if your playtime schedule doesn't mesh with the rest of the players (you get the play at the low times) you'll have a much harder time finding a group (meaning you waste more time organising one, and meaning that is you can't solo it's time you don't get xp)
Anyway, the increased HP in Issue 3 slow down the low damage At's considerably.
As an aside, I'm quite allright with making grouping more interesting (the way of the carrot) but I'm not ok with making soloing harder or nigh on impossinble (the stick)
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I think it -looks- simpler then it is.
For one thing, if adding missions was so easy that they could afford to code in temporary story arcs for special events that only last for one weekend, then honestly I think we'd be getting floods and floods of new missions, story arcs, and task forces every update. (not that we're not getting plenty, but I mean, hell, have a couple of guys churn stuff out for four months and pow, you've doubled the content of the game, if it were so easy.
Now, while setting up the framework for a mission might not be super hard, You've also got to write the story text, you've got to set the type of mobs, how many there are, set up a mission map...If you really want to please, it's gonna be hard to get away with using a generic cave or warehouse map, so you're probably going to have to have somebody do some modeling work. Then you've got to tie it to the contacts and you've gotta code it so that while the event is active, your contacts offer this special event/story arc instead of your normal missions, or at the very least alongside them. Then you've got to make sure that it'll go away when the event's over. But then, what if somebody takes a mission and doesn't do it until after the event's over? You've gotta account for that. And you've gotta account for people that might be in the middle of story-arcs, so that they can take a third "special" arc, or put the others on hold. (which is going to PO people who are trying to get through their arcs)
THEN you've gotta bugtest the whole thing. Test and test and test again, all on the internal servers. You've gotta try every imaginable thing that players could do to try and trip a bug on something.
After that, you might want to throw it up on the test server. Then you've gotta see how that goes, and see if -that- uncovers any more bugs. Then you put it up on live, when the day finally comes, and what happens? Well, likely some bug slips past, because somebody ALWAYS finds something you missed, so you get people [censored] about how the devs rushed it out. Then you get people who signed on during the weekend to do a TF or finish one of their mission arcs and pow, they find they're forced into doing something completely different that they weren't wanting to do.
Then you'll have the self proclaimed messiahs of the "casual players" who complain that the devs made this cool story arc for the hardcore gamers because a casual player could never play through it all on a weekend.
That's a LOT of effort to piss off as many people as you please.
[ QUOTE ]
As for "derailing normal operations", that would imply that the ability to incorporate limited time-specific content isn't part of the "normal operation" of the game. If you're right about this, that would represents a serious flaw in the design and/or implementation of the system as the devs have chosen to actually include time-specific "events" in the game. It is my hope that these events will become more common, and the developers will refactor the system to incorporate these events into the fabric of the game, rather than simply bolting them on, as the appear to have done with the Ru invasion and the Holloween event.
[/ QUOTE ]
The events are designed to be non-intrusive. Nothing in this game is forced on players. They're never required to do anything. One of the major elements of this game is choice. You don't -have- to do TFs, you don't -have- to street sweep, you don't -have- to do missions. You don't -have- to team, you don't -have- to solo.
Given that this is one of the pervading philosophies behind the dev's design schemes, If you -have- to do this time-sensetive story, it's gonna piss off a lot of people for a very small payoff.
And if they DON'T have to do it, well, you went through all that trouble to code in this elaborate thing that a lot of people aren't going to mess with. When they could have been, say, working on getting the skills system to work right on the internal test servers. ;p
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to pissing off people who don't want to deal with the event or who might miss it, while this may be a real concern of the devs, it would be unfortunate, as it reinforces the idea that the game is not the actual vehicle for the story, but simply a game based on the story, as I originally suggested. (Kinda like the game version of "The Incredibles" - it may give you the feeling of being in the world of the Pixar movie, but the story of "The Incredibles" isn't what happens in the game, but what appears on the big screen.) If these "events" are supposed to be part of the story, and the story is supposed to be driven through the game, than dealing with these events, or choosing to ignore them in favor of other priorities, or missing them if you're not around, would be part of the game as well. The option to treat them as if they weren't happening, or never happened at all after they were over, would not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, ultimately it's partially a hinderance of the game style. In an MMO, not everybody can be "the hero". we're all "a hero". For all we know, there -was- a resolution to the other events', it's just that Statesman is the hero that resolved it, and we were all the supporting cast that was keeping the minions busy. ;p
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, this is not how the devs designed, or, I assume, envisioned, the game. CoH *could* have been implemented as a fictional world, instead it is a game based on that fictional world.
In their defense, CoH is the first MMORPG I've played for more than a month (still going strong after 7 months at this point) which is a testament to everything they've done right so far. My criticism stems from a desire to see the MMORPG mature as a medium to the point where it actually becomes a vehicle through which a long-running "story" can be told, not simply the reflection of the story being told in the Paragon Times. My hope is that as CoH evolves this will become more and more the case for both casual and hardcore players alike.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I suspect you and I think a lot alike in terms of ideals. Unfortunately, after watching numerous developers over the years, it's that ideas are a lot easier to come up with then they are to implement. That said, a lot of what you're talking about is the kind of thing that the devs WANTED when they concieved the game. A lot of it had to be dropped or changed because of impracticality, but I suspect they're doing their best to incorperate as much of it as they can to the game. Creating a living, breathing storyline that the players can actually affect is a pretty daunting task, tho.
Personally, I think the events have all been cool so far, and they seem to get a little more impressive and elaborate each time. I still think having a temporary event story-arc is infeasible, tho. But I do think they can do more then they've done so far, AND I think they plan to. Keep in mind every aspect of this game is always being evolved and examined. so with each event, they're going to listen to everybody's comments and take them into consideration.
And wow. I talk to much, and this is pretty far from the original topic. ;p
Um. I did say "casual gamer" in the message!
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Final word on the subject, because I think we do largely agree on this. While I think introducing new story arcs, Task Forces and door missions for weekend events would be GREAT, it's far more ambitious than I would recommend. My only suggestion in these cases is that, since we're expected to fight Ru or Pumpkin Heads, or whatever we encounter next, our contacts include references to these and alternate "defeat x missions" along with their primary story arc missions, much the way they include street sweeping missions of normal mobs as alternates now. You wouldn't HAVE to do them, but at least your contacts wouldn't appear completely clueless to the event at hand. IOW, I'm not arguing for MORE content in these one or two day events, only that the event content (and I enjoyed both the Ru invasion and the Holloween event immensely) is woven into the fabric of the world at a minimal level.
Where I think transient missions, story arcs and TFs do make sense is in longer story transitions that last from one update to the next update (or the update after that) so we're not talking about content good for a couple of days, but for several months. Even if they repurposed all the 5th missions as council missions after the transition, at least there'd be missions in between that would include the players in the transition.
Personally I think this topic merits more discussion, so I will probably move this to its own thread, rather than further compromise this one.
[b]Frost Lightning - lvl 50 Ele/Ice[/b]
Kick Asterisk - lvl 43 MA/SR
Frigid Bridget- lvl 20 Ice/Cold
GrammaRadiation lvl 20 Rad/Rad
Helena Ann Baskett lvl 29 Necro/Poisen
The Very Bad Seed lvl 6 Plant/Thorn
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Final word on the subject, because I think we do largely agree on this. While I think introducing new story arcs, Task Forces and door missions for weekend events would be GREAT, it's far more ambitious than I would recommend. My only suggestion in these cases is that, since we're expected to fight Ru or Pumpkin Heads, or whatever we encounter next, our contacts include references to these and alternate "defeat x missions" along with their primary story arc missions, much the way they include street sweeping missions of normal mobs as alternates now. You wouldn't HAVE to do them, but at least your contacts wouldn't appear completely clueless to the event at hand. IOW, I'm not arguing for MORE content in these one or two day events, only that the event content (and I enjoyed both the Ru invasion and the Holloween event immensely) is woven into the fabric of the world at a minimal level.
Where I think transient missions, story arcs and TFs do make sense is in longer story transitions that last from one update to the next update (or the update after that) so we're not talking about content good for a couple of days, but for several months. Even if they repurposed all the 5th missions as council missions after the transition, at least there'd be missions in between that would include the players in the transition.
Personally I think this topic merits more discussion, so I will probably move this to its own thread, rather than further compromise this one.
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I also wanted to put in a final word, since I don't want it to look like I "took my ball and went home". I pretty much agree with everything you said there. And I hope that a dev happens across this thread (or whatever suggestion thread you create/have created) and considers it. ;p
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
Yup, I think the devs are doing great too, but I am concerned that they will start taking CoH down the EQ drain: Casual players get shafted and only those in uber guilds get catered to. And a second EQ problem: the fights took over a minute in EQ. I fear that by increasing mob HP, CoH will go in that direction too. The player will loose the 'Super' in Super Hero, and they will just be another Zerg in the swarm.
When determining the size off the ideal super group, they should look to the comics (who they claim are their inspiration). The largest super group (the Avengers) is below 20 members (to my knowledge). Super groups are NOT EQ size guilds. Its the fantastic 4, not the fantastic 400!!!!
Torden - Lvl 50 Electric blast / Electric manipulation / Electric mastery Blaster - Triumph
General Thrax - Lvl 50 Mercenaries / Poison / Mace mastery Mastermind - Freedom