The Theory of Updates and the Casual Player

Cursed_Headsman · 11-30-2004 12:55 PM

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What does Statesman mean by "Council"?

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Replacement villain group for 5th column.

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So the game can be sold in Germany.

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Hasn't this been disproven about six times by now?

The Council are no less Nazi-like than the 5th. How does replacing once neo-Nazi group with another make the game sell better in Germany?

Addendum: The 5th aren't gone, either. You can still see them in PI (and reportedly IP).

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And how does replacing Vanilla with Chocolate make the story move forward when there is nothing in the missions storywise explaining what happened and or why? Leastwise none that I have heard about or seen in the missions I have done on Test. Sorry but this is the same exact Ice Cream cone, not even a different flavor just added food coloring. So why the Food Coloring?

Have fun !

PS: This kind of thinking reminds me of an old Sunday School song we used to be forced to sing. I will adjust it as appropriate for this instance:

"Statesman loves me, this I know, because his "Bible" tells me so"

Righter · 11-30-2004 12:58 PM

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What does Statesman mean by "Council"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Replacement villain group for 5th column.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the game can be sold in Germany.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hasn't this been disproven about six times by now?

The Council are no less Nazi-like than the 5th. How does replacing once neo-Nazi group with another make the game sell better in Germany?

Addendum: The 5th aren't gone, either. You can still see them in PI (and reportedly IP).

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does replacing Vanilla with Chocolate make the story move forward when there is nothing in the missions storywise explaining what happened and or why? Leastwise none that I have heard about or seen in the missions I have done on Test. Sorry but this is the same exact Ice Cream cone, not even a different flavor just added food coloring. So why the Food Coloring?

Have fun !

PS: This kind of thinking reminds me of an old Sunday School song we used to be forced to sing. I will adjust it as appropriate for this instance:

"Statesman loves me, this I know, because his "Bible" tells me so"

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*sigh*
People just can't accept it, can they?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Kamaitachi · 11-30-2004 01:01 PM

Hey, come on now, lets all stop getting snippy at each other before CuppaJo or someone comes and tells us not to get snippy . Let's all air our opinions in a civilized manner.

Now, my *personal opinion* is that the bug and balance fixes are not something to base one's opinion of an update on. These, I feel, are essential changes to the game and are thefore inevitable; they should happen regardless of the feature updates. The new zones, I feel, is a particularly nice touch in every update; how many other games do that? Give you a new area to play in every couple of months? Sure, they may be hazard/trial zones, but they also come with new missions and contacts, and just provide more room for exploration.

UnicyclePeon · 11-30-2004 01:01 PM

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One aspect of casual gameing is the ability to solo and progress through content.

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And with that fallacy as a central premise I can easily ignore the rest of your post.

Preference for soloing or grouping has nothing to do with casual vs advancement driven play.

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Time invested is a big factor for determining whether someone is a casual or diehard player. For people with short windows of time (casual players), soloing is more important.

Casual players can and do group, but so long as finding a group takes time (varies by luck and player social ability), playing for short periods of time will tend more towards a solo player. So, it could be said there is a stronger correlation between casual and solo play.

Not saying I agreed with everything in his post, just saying there is a relationship.

Also, casual players who group will be less likely to complete missions designed for diehards (Task Forces). It can be done, but their numbers will be lower, especially for the long ones. That creates a link between certain grouping activities and diehard gaming.

So, there is a relationship. But "solo = casual" is definitely not a true statement. I always play solo and before I became addicted to EQ 2 and split my time, I played 40 hours a week, mostly solo. Darn alt-a-holism.

Lewis

Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

Camper · 11-30-2004 01:02 PM

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Here on the forum however I will continue to post what I like and don't like as long as I do continue paying.

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Indeed. Post whatever you want.

I'm still not fond of sweeping generalities, but if we removed those we'd have to shut down the entire forum.

McFist · 11-30-2004 01:03 PM

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Example: Lous Garage, mission in a low level clockwork arc, now *looks* like a garage.

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That happened in Issue 2, though as well as with a couple of Freakshow missions, a Banished Pantheon mission, and some early level missions. Although, such changes to missions are expected to be delivered this time around, too.

As far as the 5th Column being changed to the Council being a feature? I guess I'm missing something because all I've seen are renamed 5th Column standing on the same old soapboxes wearing slightly different costumes. *shrug*

Cursed_Headsman · 11-30-2004 01:03 PM

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*cough*
Just thought I'd chip in my 2 inf. here...
"Mission Customization" doesn't refer to the mission difficulty slider, but rather to the new mission art\graphics\etc. in certain missions.

Example: Lous Garage, mission in a low level clockwork arc, now *looks* like a garage.

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*cough cough*
Just though I'd refund you your 2 inf. here...
Yeah that Lou's garage thing was a nice change in Issue 2, only problem is I think we are refering to Issue 3 here not issue 2. And sorry but if they add additional design elements to existing missions (which is a great thing btw), but players have outleveled that content already (for instance the new art for Dr. V's lair) well that hardly makes it available for all does it?

Have fun !

Kamaitachi · 11-30-2004 01:06 PM

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*cough*
Just thought I'd chip in my 2 inf. here...
"Mission Customization" doesn't refer to the mission difficulty slider, but rather to the new mission art\graphics\etc. in certain missions.

Example: Lous Garage, mission in a low level clockwork arc, now *looks* like a garage.

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*cough cough*
Just though I'd refund you your 2 inf. here...
Yeah that Lou's garage thing was a nice change in Issue 2, only problem is I think we are refering to Issue 3 here not issue 2. And sorry but if they add additional design elements to existing missions (which is a great thing btw), but players have outleveled that content already (for instance the new art for Dr. V's lair) well that hardly makes it available for all does it?

Have fun !

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You know, this is basically taking the "Issue 3 is for higher level players" argument and running the other way. On the one hand...new low level stuff that the high levels can't see. On the other hand...new high level stuff that the low levels can't see. What's the problem anyway? It's not the SAME stuff available for everyone, but there *is* new stuff available for everyone.

Righter · 11-30-2004 01:13 PM

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*cough*
Just thought I'd chip in my 2 inf. here...
"Mission Customization" doesn't refer to the mission difficulty slider, but rather to the new mission art\graphics\etc. in certain missions.

Example: Lous Garage, mission in a low level clockwork arc, now *looks* like a garage.

[/ QUOTE ]

*cough cough*
Just though I'd refund you your 2 inf. here...
Yeah that Lou's garage thing was a nice change in Issue 2, only problem is I think we are refering to Issue 3 here not issue 2. And sorry but if they add additional design elements to existing missions (which is a great thing btw), but players have outleveled that content already (for instance the new art for Dr. V's lair) well that hardly makes it available for all does it?

Have fun !

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*cough cough cough*
I was giving an EXAMPLE of what HAS been customized, because I'm not sure what they've done in Issue 3.

Thanks for missing the point.
EDIT: Looked through and found some. A Revenant Hero Project mission or two has been customized, along with a few 5th missions about making the Mek Men.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Stateswoman · 11-30-2004 01:16 PM

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*sigh*
People just can't accept it, can they?

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People just can't accept what, exactly?

I find the 5th Column-to-Council repackaging to be disappointing and unnecessary, regardless of why it happened or how long it has been planned or whatever, and that's just my opinion.

Did I complain at all when the Rularuu and the Shadow Shard were introduced? Not even a little bit, and I thoroughly enjoyed the invasion and roleplayed along with it. It was all NEW, new missions, some new bad guys, new content.

The Council just isn't. It is a repackaging of existing content, mobs and storyline and all. Renamed, a few details changed, etc. Striga Isle is new, but Striga Isle could just as easily been a 5th Column base of power.

The important thing here was the revelation that the Nictus were taking over. That could just as easily been accomplished by keeping the 5th Column, removing 90% of them from the streets, keeping the token battles between 5th and Council, changing the existing 5th Column mission lineup slightly to show them having serious trouble with the Council (giving enhanced reasons for the attempts to reach Axis Amerika for reinforcements, Ubelman trying to get back to the past to stop the Nictus and change history, etc.), and then put in the extra hard development work of introducing the Council and their base of power in Striga Isle.

Of course, as noted, that would have required creation of all new missions and story arcs for the Council instead of just repackaging the 5th Column content as Council content.

I think I've just been put off by the whole thing because it has been such a departure from the usual level of development we've grown accustomed to from Cryptic. Up until now, every new Issue has included new stuff, new content. Regardless of the reasoning for the whole change, it just seems a little weak and ill-wrought compared to what they've been able to accomplish thus far.

I'd still absolutely love to hear the opinions of those folks who have been enjoying the heck out of the Council and updated missions and story arcs, think they're an improvement over the 5th Column and how immersive they were, and think this has been a really cool change for CoH.

Cursed_Headsman · 11-30-2004 01:23 PM

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I think I've just been put off by the whole thing because it has been such a departure from the usual level of development we've grown accustomed to from Cryptic. Up until now, every new Issue has included new stuff, new content. Regardless of the reasoning for the whole change, it just seems a little weak and ill-wrought compared to what they've been able to accomplish thus far.

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This pretty much sums up my feelings on the changes as well. For me what made it even more distasteful was being fed this "Bible" line, which to me implied advancement of actual story, with purpose, when on closer inspection the only story changes made were retconning of the 5th into the Council. As stated earlier, I have yet to find, nor read anything on Test that explains this "story". I am still looking for it.

Have fun !

Righter · 11-30-2004 01:26 PM

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This pretty much sums up my feelings on the changes as well. For me what made it even more distasteful was being fed this "Bible" line, which to me implied advancement of actual story, with purpose, when on closer inspection the only story changes made were retconning of the 5th into the Council. As stated earlier, I have yet to find, nor read anything on Test that explains this "story". I am still looking for it.

Have fun !

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Uh, I don't think they were retconned into the Council. The Council is made up of the Nictus-controlled people, etc, of which Requiem was one from the start. It would appear that him and the rest of his troops decided now was the time to take over. How is that retconning?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

McFist · 11-30-2004 01:29 PM

Yup... unless something happens prior to Issue 3's launch where an event happens where we see the Council actively take over the 5th Column, it's just going to become one of the most blassé alterations to an MMORPG I've ever seen.

And even if there is some kind of cool event, it's not going to change the fact that my characters' histories are being rewritten, my souveniers and badges suddenly changing from 5th Column ones to Council ones. Granted, it's a pretty weak change to the actual gameplay, but a pretty significant powerslam to the game's previously established story and to the immersion factor.

I have a hard time believing that this change was planned, as Statesman claims, when the game's entire history is having the 5th Column largely written out of it.

_Pax_ · 11-30-2004 01:30 PM

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Auxiliary Power Pools - levels 40 up -------cool
Kheldians - level 50--------------------------kinda cool
Council - all levels----------------------------so sad
Striga Isle - levels 20 - 30-------------------eh
Mission Customization - all levels-----------yawn
Global Chat - all levels----------------------worthless

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?!!! What?!!!

Global Chat is awesome if you use it for what it's really for. I can find my friends no matter what Alt they're playing - and they can find me.

Vega_Bond · 11-30-2004 01:33 PM

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Auxiliary Power Pools - levels 40 up -------cool
Kheldians - level 50--------------------------kinda cool
Council - all levels----------------------------so sad
Striga Isle - levels 20 - 30-------------------eh
Mission Customization - all levels-----------yawn
Global Chat - all levels----------------------worthless

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I like pie.

Cursed_Headsman · 11-30-2004 01:35 PM

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Uh, I don't think they were retconned into the Council. The Council is made up of the Nictus-controlled people, etc, of which Requiem was one from the start. It would appear that him and the rest of his troops decided now was the time to take over. How is that retconning?

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Yes and the "The Center" and his band of merry Cobra Commandoes broke into Portal Corp and changed every mission and Story Arc to erase any evidence of the 5th ever existing in this or any other Dimension, and essentially rewrote the history of all worlds, because it was something to do on a lazy Sunday afternoon. Is this the story you are refereing too? You are familiar with the before and after look of Story Arcs like Ubbelman and Axis Amerika right?

Seriously bub, no offense meant, but unless you are really up to speed on everything that has been changed, you really should try and put off making statements like this one you posted. I mean I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you know what retconning is right?

Have fun !

Righter · 11-30-2004 01:35 PM

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Auxiliary Power Pools - levels 40 up -------cool
Kheldians - level 50--------------------------kinda cool
Council - all levels----------------------------so sad
Striga Isle - levels 20 - 30-------------------eh
Mission Customization - all levels-----------yawn
Global Chat - all levels----------------------worthless

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I like pie.

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I agree. Let us all have some pie.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Righter · 11-30-2004 01:37 PM

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Uh, I don't think they were retconned into the Council. The Council is made up of the Nictus-controlled people, etc, of which Requiem was one from the start. It would appear that him and the rest of his troops decided now was the time to take over. How is that retconning?

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Yes and the "The Center" and his band of merry Cobra Commandoes broke into Portal Corp and changed every mission and Story Arc to erase any evidence of the 5th ever existing in this or any other Dimension, and essentially rewrote the history of all worlds, because it was something to do on a lazy Sunday afternoon. Is this the story you are refereing too? You are familiar with the before and after look of Story Arcs like Ubbelman and Axis Amerika right?

Seriously bub, no offense meant, but unless you are really up to speed on everything that has been changed, you really should try and put off making statements like this one you posted. I mean I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you know what retconning is right?

Have fun !

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I know what retconning is, and I was pretty sure that it didn't change the souvenir that I had... let me go double check.
If it did, then I retract all my statements and need a bonk on the head.
EDIT: I checked, and indeed, I still have my letter from Requiem, describing my adventure, same as before.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Cursed_Headsman · 11-30-2004 01:55 PM

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I know what retconning is, and I was pretty sure that it didn't change the souvenir that I had... let me go double check.
If it did, then I retract all my statements and need a bonk on the head.

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Glad to see giving you the benefit of the doubt wasn't a wasted effort.

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EDIT: I checked, and indeed, I still have my letter from Requiem, describing my adventure, same as before.

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Dude, seriously, you are aware that the Ubelman Arc now presents you with a letter from someone called "The Center", not Requiem, and the story involves Civil War Era Grannies not trying to change the history of WW2 Right? I mean heck someone (sorry forget your name and the name of your thread) went so far as to post pics of the story as its told now as well as the changed souvenier, for petes sake. You do realize that Axis America is now Council America right? Exactly what part of that is not retconning? Honestly, do you think we are making this stuff up?

Have fun !

Righter · 11-30-2004 01:57 PM

...Yeah, yeah. You win. I give up.
Can we eat some pie now?

And how is that retconning? That's just changing the mission for future players, probably so they aren't confused about the 5th and the Council. Wouldn't it only be retconning if they changed the souvenir I have?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Pep_Cat · 11-30-2004 02:07 PM

I believe it was Positron who said that souvenirs you already have wouldn't be changed. However, if you earned your Letter after Issue 3 came out, it would be the new one.

As far as the changes from 5th Col to Council... I have to fully agree with Stateswoman. In fact, I can't even add anything to her points.

As far as the new content for Kheldians goes... even if you don't have a 50th level hero, and, therefore, can't play a Kheldian, the Peacemakers and Warshades really need to group with non-Kheldians in order to become effective. They can solo to a degree, true, but it helps to have.... well, help.

And I'm guessing exemplering with still work with a Kheldian, so higher level heroes can see the low level Kheldian missions, too.

Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls

Liquid · 11-30-2004 02:33 PM

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The Council is made up of the Nictus-controlled people, etc, of which Requiem was one from the start. It would appear that him and the rest of his troops decided now was the time to take over.

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Take over WHAT?

Requiem was already in charge.

I'm really annoyed with the change (though happy that they claim they are restoring the history plaques), and even more annoyed that a repackaging of an existing villain group is being labeled as "new content", but I will say this:

ONE Story Arc or TF to explain the 5th/Council conflict and takeover would be enough to satisfy me. If Statesman, or any other Dev for that matter, posted in this thread saying "there is a story arc/TF that goes into detail about the 5th/Council war" I will be satisfied. I would also (obviously) be satisfied if someone who has actually seen something of this nature on the Test server, says that it is already there.

Another thing of note is that we were promised two things in Issue 3: a council and a war. What we got was a renamed villain group we already had as the council, and a couple of spawns and newspaper articles as a war. There is obviously no turning back on the Council thing, but at least we could ask for more in the "war" department.

War is a big word, it doesn't describe a couple of fights. If all they are giving us is spawns, at least we could get them all over the place (like 4 or so spawns per zone), especially in Steel Canyon, Boomtown, and Brickstown, the three major areas of 5th/Council influence. And it would be nice if they had dialogue that might help explain what is going on, I didn't see any when I watched and fought them in IP.

Striga Isle is very cool, I'm thrilled to finally have alliance chat , and I'm moderately happy with the mission difficulty slider (there should be some way to restore pre-Issue 2 +0 only missions to the low-end game). Just wanted to add some positives in there.

Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

Righter · 11-30-2004 02:39 PM

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The Council is made up of the Nictus-controlled people, etc, of which Requiem was one from the start. It would appear that him and the rest of his troops decided now was the time to take over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take over WHAT?

Requiem was already in charge.

I'm really annoyed with the change (though happy that they claim they are restoring the history plaques), and even more annoyed that a repackaging of an existing villain group is being labeled as "new content", but I will say this:

ONE Story Arc or TF to explain the 5th/Council conflict and takeover would be enough to satisfy me. If Statesman, or any other Dev for that matter, posted in this thread saying "there is a story arc/TF that goes into detail about the 5th/Council war" I will be satisfied. I would also (obviously) be satisfied if someone who has actually seen something of this nature on the Test server, says that it is already there.

Another thing of note is that we were promised two things in Issue 3: a council and a war. What we got was a renamed villain group we already had as the council, and a couple of spawns and newspaper articles as a war. There is obviously no turning back on the Council thing, but at least we could ask for more in the "war" department.

War is a big word, it doesn't describe a couple of fights. If all they are giving us is spawns, at least we could get them all over the place (like 4 or so spawns per zone), especially in Steel Canyon, Boomtown, and Brickstown, the three major areas of 5th/Council influence. And it would be nice if they had dialogue that might help explain what is going on, I didn't see any when I watched and fought them in IP.

Striga Isle is very cool, I'm thrilled to finally have alliance chat , and I'm moderately happy with the mission difficulty slider (there should be some way to restore pre-Issue 2 +0 only missions to the low-end game). Just wanted to add some positives in there.

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Have you considered that maaaaybe...JUST MAYBE...
There might be an event about it on the live servers?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA

Tyger42 · 11-30-2004 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does Statesman mean by "Council"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Replacement villain group for 5th column.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the game can be sold in Germany.

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Yeah! Nevermind the fact that several germans have posted that there's no such law as the one people keep touting that no nazi imagery can legally be used in games in Germany! (And nevermind the fact that the 5th Column didn't actually -HAVE- any Nazi imagery...) Nevermind the fact that States has said this was a plot twist planned since before release! (Oh, yeah, but Statesman is lying, despite the fact that there's no reason to do so and, in fact, more damage than good done by doing so)

Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

chriz_NA · 11-30-2004 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does Statesman mean by "Council"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Replacement villain group for 5th column.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the game can be sold in Germany.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hasn't this been disproven about six times by now?

The Council are no less Nazi-like than the 5th. How does replacing once neo-Nazi group with another make the game sell better in Germany?

Addendum: The 5th aren't gone, either. You can still see them in PI (and reportedly IP).

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does replacing Vanilla with Chocolate make the story move forward when there is nothing in the missions storywise explaining what happened and or why? Leastwise none that I have heard about or seen in the missions I have done on Test. Sorry but this is the same exact Ice Cream cone, not even a different flavor just added food coloring. So why the Food Coloring?

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Hm, nope, don't think I said replacing the 5th with Council moved the story forward. Didn't say anything about one flavor being better than the other.

I just said this wasn't because of the German market. If it was, the 5th would be gone completely and the replacement wouldn't just be another pseudo-Nazi organization. Oh, and there wouldn't have been evidence of the Council's existence since beta.

As someone else said, Cryptic knew full well they were going to sell the game in Germany from day one. Why put in an "illegal" group if you're just going to turn around and take them out? Also, German law only pertains to specific Nazi imagery, such as swastikas and so forth. The 5th have none of these.