Resisting Sleep, Stun, Hold, etc.
By
Accualt,
Posted on: 2004-11-10 18:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
And QueenVoodoo, Occam's Razor is a valid enough reason to be concerned.
Let me put it to you like this. CoH already has the Inspiration mechanism in place. It's a perfectly valid assumption that CoV will have much the same mechanism. It's also a perfectly valid assumption that any inspiration a Player of CoH can get can also be acquired by a Player of CoV ( if by no other mechanism than simple trade ).
I've seen nothing to suggest that Inspirations are in anyway tagged "For Hero Use Only".
So I think it's pretty safe to assume that any Inspiration available to either Heroes or Villians will be available to both and that they will function identically for both because assuming anything else introduces needless complexity.
Will Powers affect Heroes/Villians differently than they affect Mobs? We have Developer statements on Record to that effect.
There is nothing anywhere about Inspirations behaving differently.
IMHO, it would be better to give something like Integration or Practiced Brawler in every set, and let to people the choice to take it or not (considering utility, endurance cost...) rather than creating inspirations...
Give people a real choice and the responsability to assume their choice.
There's nothing heroïc in using gadgets like inspirations...
And my day just keeps getting better and better!
You guys fixed the protect x missions, enabling me to finally get my cape. You're fixing the scrapper/tanker melee vs runners. And now, this.
Throw in a box full of Twinkies and I'm in heaven. 
That's great but...
If all my toggles drop it's not going to make much difference, could we get a cooldown period before toggles start dropping when mezzed? Short moment when, by using one of these inspirations, we could actually save ourselves?
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Argh...
Argh....
CoV, will not be controller versus blaster PvE. CoV will not focus (nor should it ever try to balance) on hero vs Hero. It will have Heors fighting Villians, which will have different and unique powers. Just as tuant will be re-worked specifically for PvP, I suspect Cntroller powers will likely have different effects in PvP.
I do not think we need to worry about changes now, to Hero At's effecting balance in CoV PvP.
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This isn't about Hero vs. Hero interaction. This is about an INSPIRATION, which will be available to everyone (no matter the archtype), that completely negates the function of the controller class.
It radically alters their abilities in ANY instance of PvP. Doesn't matter who's fighting who ... if you're a controller, you just had your powers de-fanged when facing any other hero with access to inspirations.
Yay!
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You know what they say about assumptions...
yay!
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Ah - one more thing. We're adding a new Inspiration that you can use to wake up from Sleep, Stun, Hold & Immobilize.
Yep - so if you're stunned, wobbling back and forth - you can use this Inspiration and WHAMMO - you're ready for action.
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I feel kinda.... used... Didn't I PM you about an idea just like this a few weeks ago, as well as cook this up in a thread with someone else just before that?? The one thing that would eliminate a ton of frusteration with the game...
These forums never cease to amaze me. Admittedly, this is my first online MMORPG so maybe I'm not as qualified (i.e. jaded) as other gamers here, but I'm pretty amazed that the devs are always working to tweak and enhance this game. I've been playing since beta and we've had invasions, halloween specials, and a major update with a gazillion minor tweaks. As a software programmer in the business environment, I can tell you that most programs are a house of cards, no matter how well designed. Tinker with it and you risk dropping the whole thing. So, the fact that the devs put so many changes in to satisfy their users on a constant basis is nothing short of awesome to me. Hats off to the devs and the long hours they are putting in to constantly tweak a good game and make it better. Even in the face of the 'omg the sky is falling for controllers, or CoV, or whoever'. I'm afraid you have met the members of CAVE (Citizens Against Virtually Everything).
Pinnacle - Rock Steady, Warp Speed, Dr. Twilight, Toybox, The Turtle, Quark Master, Snow Spirit, Spirit Shaman
about 95% of my deaths come from being held so.....YIPPIE!!!
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Ah - one more thing. We're adding a new Inspiration that you can use to wake up from Sleep, Stun, Hold & Immobilize.
Yep - so if you're stunned, wobbling back and forth - you can use this Inspiration and WHAMMO - you're ready for action.
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Why not just add this feature to the powers of the existing Discipline-family of Inspirations? My Inspiration bar is pretty full all the time now anyway.
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While this is a good step, isn't it redundant with the Iron Will-type inspirations? I mean yea, using these after-the-fact does mean you've lost your toggles, so there's some use for pre-emptive inspirations, but it's not efficient to carry both and it was never practical to use pre-emptive ones except for specific bosses/AVs anyways.
Why not add this functionality to those?
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Gonna agree with this sentiment, appreciate the addition but not entirely sure its necessary. Somehow my poor glass cannon has managed to get along either by taking out the status effect casters first or by keeping an Iron Will handy. Feels like an (albeit minor) dumbing down of the game IMO.
Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains
The game player part of me likes this because it's an advantage for me. It means I'll be defeated less often.
The roleplayer part of me asks "How can I use inspirations if I'm slept or stunned or held?" That part is bothered that these new inspirations will be available.
I would rather have seen fewer status-affecting villains and less chain-stunning. At the very least, don't make the use or effect of these inspirations 100% certain. Something like "Must break free, must help teammates," yet you may or may not be able to do so, depending on the levels of the status effects.
I guess, like some other things in the game, I'll figure out some way to rationalize it. I'm pretty good with that. 
Ferrium - Inv/SS Tanker
Hyperforce - SS/Regen Brute
Member of V for Vengance (Exalted)
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The game player part of me likes this because it's an advantage for me. It means I'll be defeated less often.
The roleplayer part of me asks "How can I use inspirations if I'm slept or stunned or held?" That part is bothered that these new inspirations will be available.
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Ya know, I started to mention this in my own posting until my brain wisely suggested that I look at the current inspirations for precedents. Are there any existing pills that I can pop while I'm under a status effect? It turns out there is. Revives! So the idea of being able to trigger an anti-status inspiration while sleeping or stunned doesn't seem that odd to me when you can pop a pill while *dead* 
Still don't like the idea of two anti-status insps. Merge this post-effect ability with Iron Wills, replace one with the other, however you want to look at it, but we don't have enough insp slots to be playing an inspiration arms race.
Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains
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There will always be at least ONE of these new inspirations in my tray at all times
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Yup. I'll be reserving a spot in the tray now right next to the one permanently reserved for awakens.
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That's great but...
If all my toggles drop it's not going to make much difference, could we get a cooldown period before toggles start dropping when mezzed? Short moment when, by using one of these inspirations, we could actually save ourselves?
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I'll second this.
Not so much a problem for the SR scrapper with perma-PB, but my dark/dark's main debuff - you know, the big accuracy/damage debuff that's her contribution to team defense - drops & starts its recharge count when I'm stunned/mezzed/etc. So while this will let me get out of the status effect, my teammates are staggering around with little to no defense until the frelling toggle comes back up. I'd really like some sort of short (five second? ten?) immunity timer, so if you can pop this new inspiration in that time, your toggles don't drop.
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The game player part of me likes this because it's an advantage for me. It means I'll be defeated less often.
The roleplayer part of me asks "How can I use inspirations if I'm slept or stunned or held?" That part is bothered that these new inspirations will be available.
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Ya know, I started to mention this in my own posting until my brain wisely suggested that I look at the current inspirations for precedents. Are there any existing pills that I can pop while I'm under a status effect? It turns out there is. Revives! So the idea of being able to trigger an anti-status inspiration while sleeping or stunned doesn't seem that odd to me when you can pop a pill while *dead*
Still don't like the idea of two anti-status insps. Merge this post-effect ability with Iron Wills, replace one with the other, however you want to look at it, but we don't have enough insp slots to be playing an inspiration arms race.
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Another thing along the same vein, "using inspriations" is the game mechanic. On the "role playing" side, I do not believe your character is actually "popping a pill". Inspiration comes in many forms. I have often imagined that these "inspirations" are more likely stories, or tid bits of information rather than a small green or purple pill that I swallow to make me feeel better.
ie in game: Player is stunned, pops a new inspiration to get unstunned goes back to the fight.
in character: Mighty Fist gets knocked loopy by a Paragon Protector, in his daze, he realises that he is the only one that can save Paragon City from [insert insidious plot here] and quickly recovers.
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We already know that all powers won't work the same in PvP, so why do you think the devs would be stupid enough to not do the same with this inspiration?...
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Alright, Revolver, I'll be your huckleberry...
Please show me one reference by any CoH Dev anywhere stating that Inspirations will function differently in PvP.
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Inpirations aren't going to work at all in PvP, silly.
Because if they did, people would be going out and fighting mindlessly until their trays were packed nice and full with tier 3s, and THEN AND ONLY THEN would they dare to engage in PvP with other players who, presumably, have also hunted down tier 3s. And they would complain at length about the huge tedious process to become competitive.
Either inspirations won't figure at all in hero/villain PvP, or each side is going to get a predetermined number and kind of inspirations instead of the ones they're currently carrying.
--GF
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That's great but...
If all my toggles drop it's not going to make much difference, could we get a cooldown period before toggles start dropping when mezzed? Short moment when, by using one of these inspirations, we could actually save ourselves?
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I'll second this.
Not so much a problem for the SR scrapper with perma-PB, but my dark/dark's main debuff - you know, the big accuracy/damage debuff that's her contribution to team defense - drops & starts its recharge count when I'm stunned/mezzed/etc. So while this will let me get out of the status effect, my teammates are staggering around with little to no defense until the frelling toggle comes back up. I'd really like some sort of short (five second? ten?) immunity timer, so if you can pop this new inspiration in that time, your toggles don't drop.
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I disagree. There has to be a penalty for being overcome. If you didn't use a discipline inspiration or if you got effects stacked, this new type bails you out. You still have other powers to use, like Twilight Grasp for heals, tentacles for rooting, and depending on your level, Torrent to push away or another pet to throw. Not to mention your own blasts.
If this insiprations get you back at 100% with your toggles, they are *too* powerful. If they get you out of the mezz, they work just fine. In about 10 seconds you can be back on top of things.
Why not let existing pink inspirations do this, instead of creating a whole new type?
Inspirations are handed out randomly, by adding a new type, you decrease the chance of actually getting the one you need...
I think people are getting the wrong impression when they think that a single impression will break you out of any single status effect. In my mind I picture these inspirations having a magnitude to them much like the powers themselves.
Geko said all players have a normal status magnitude of -1. As soon as that number hits 1 or higher, the effect kicks in. For example, let's say you're fighting a Rikti Mentalist whose holds are magnitude 3 (I'm not sure of the exact numbers). The hold lands and you're now at magnitude 2; and held. Pop the inspirations and you're status drops back down to -1, freeing you from the hold. However, that means multiple holds can't be broken out of so easily. Say two Mentalists each land their hold bumping your status to 5. A single magnitude 3 inspiration only drops you down to 2, keeping you held. Anyway, that's how I imagine it might work.
P.S. - I hope I made sense. 
Is it going to make the "WHAMMO" sound?
By making toggles not drop your effectively making some characters undefeatable. So the new inspiration becomes the I win button. Woo hoo lets make the game a total snooze fest because there are very little ramifications for being defeated and on top of that you can only be defeated by mobs of 30 that are at least +8. Man that sounds like fun-
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The game player part of me likes this because it's an advantage for me. It means I'll be defeated less often.
The roleplayer part of me asks "How can I use inspirations if I'm slept or stunned or held?" That part is bothered that these new inspirations will be available.
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Ya know, I started to mention this in my own posting until my brain wisely suggested that I look at the current inspirations for precedents. Are there any existing pills that I can pop while I'm under a status effect? It turns out there is. Revives! So the idea of being able to trigger an anti-status inspiration while sleeping or stunned doesn't seem that odd to me when you can pop a pill while *dead*
Still don't like the idea of two anti-status insps. Merge this post-effect ability with Iron Wills, replace one with the other, however you want to look at it, but we don't have enough insp slots to be playing an inspiration arms race.
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Another thing along the same vein, "using inspriations" is the game mechanic. On the "role playing" side, I do not believe your character is actually "popping a pill". Inspiration comes in many forms. I have often imagined that these "inspirations" are more likely stories, or tid bits of information rather than a small green or purple pill that I swallow to make me feeel better.
ie in game: Player is stunned, pops a new inspiration to get unstunned goes back to the fight.
in character: Mighty Fist gets knocked loopy by a Paragon Protector, in his daze, he realises that he is the only one that can save Paragon City from [insert insidious plot here] and quickly recovers.
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I always see things that way too... Except of course in the case of Kora Fruit... 
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Better than buying them, it would be neato (but I'm not sure if too powerful) if, when you get a drop, if your tray is full the drop boosts an existing inspiration of the same type instead (if you have one). So over time, if you don't use them, you will slowly get the bigger respites, breaths, lucks etc. Maybe disable this for awakens if that is too powerful. Kinda analogous to letting us ++ enhancements.
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I really like this idea. Or if combining two to get the next level is not enough, make it a manual combine where it takes 3 of the same level to make a higher level.
I have to agree that we need more inspiration slots, especially in the later levels. Even if they are in somed type of storage that we cannot access directly from the inspiration tray. Something we have to go into a rest type animation to retrieve. Maybe we are digging it out of a backpack, utility belt, or cape pouch. And I really like the idea above that these inpsirations above are just that, you become inpsired to fight harder, faster, and longer. In this consideration this extra storage would be akin to soul searching or pondering a problem a bit longer.
Of course I would also like a third visible power tray for my macros.
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Ah - one more thing. We're adding a new Inspiration that you can use to wake up from Sleep, Stun, Hold & Immobilize.
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Statesman - FWIW, I'd rather see more defender/controller types have access to Clear Mind, or a similar ability, than to create these inspirations. I fear that these will only help discourage grouping.
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I completely agree!
But we should make sure that these new powers fit in with the spirit of the powersets. Also, we should consider making them all work slightly differently, so they don't look like a cut-and-paste of Clear Mind. I have a few ideas for these new powers, consider my suggestions below.
Often when someone is slept or stunned, their toggles drop and they take damage. You could give the Storm Summoning line a power that clears/resists sleep and stun plus heals some damage. Call it something like "O2 Boost."
Kinetics power line already has a timed buff. Why not add another one, something kineticy like "Increase Density." You could have it resist Hold and Stun, plus Knockback as an added bonus.
Radiation Emission tends to have area effects. Why not give them a PBAE buff that resists Hold, Stun, and Sleep. Maybe even throw in some bonuses to damage and resistances while you are at it. I recommend "Accelerate Metabolism" as a good name that would fit the theme.
The Force Field powers focus on, well, force fields. You could give them a really big forcefield that protects the whole group from Hold, Stun, and Sleep. Give it a name like Dispersion Field or "Dispersion Bubble."
Lastly, you should give something extra special to the Dark Defenders, since everyone has been so down on them and there have been problems with their powers in the past. Psionic resistance is very rare in the game, and many status effects come from Psionic attacks. How about a group buff that gives resistance to Psionic, Energy, and Negative Energy? This would not only reduce the length of all status effects from those types of attacks, but it would reduce the damage taken too! To make it fit the dark theme, you should add a side-effect like stealth or something, if that's not too overpowered. Give it a really cool evil name like "Shadow Fall."
I really hope the Devs take my suggestions seriously. If we don't give all defenders a way to prevent or resist status effects some groups might start only accepting Empathy Defenders, and we know what a waste that would be. I want to see these new powers added as soon as possible.
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We already know that all powers won't work the same in PvP, so why do you think the devs would be stupid enough to not do the same with this inspiration?...
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Alright, Revolver, I'll be your huckleberry...
Please show me one reference by any CoH Dev anywhere stating that Inspirations will function differently in PvP.
Ahh... Perhaps you're trying to say that Stun/Hold/Sleep/Imm won't actually be Stun/Hold/Sleep/Imm in PvP and therefore this new Inspiration type won't be needed. This of course flies in the face of the Devs' opinions that Controllers may be a powerful force in PvP.
Why don't you try thinking once in a great while there, bub.
What I'm hearing here is that by popping this new pill, I can completely overcome the main strength of an entire AT.
Combine that with another pill that I can pop that makes me all but immune to that set of powers and I'd say there's cause for concern.
Lastly, combine this with the changes incoming to Fear, which IMO stand a good chance of completely infringing on Controller's bailiwick, and I'd be purty dern'd PO'd if I'd invested any kind of time in the AT at all.
Now, what I asked was...
1) How will this new Inspiration consider the magnitude of the effect it's "dispelling"?
2) How many effects will be "dispelled" per Inspiration?
And before you think I'm getting bent over my "pet" AT, check the sig, I've never played a Controller.