Low lvl game is TOTALLY SCREWED
By
9783_Dollar_Man,
Posted on: 2004-09-28 10:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Boo! Please keep Outcast minions interesting! If they are doing the same damage as other minions but using flares, ice bolt, stone fists etc instead of knives and pistols, I am very much in favor of keeping their flavor the way it is post issue 2.
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Yes, they are quite tasty.
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I have only two outstanding complaints about the Hollows, and one is that mobs are spawning literally on top of players. (
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Now that IS definitely an issue. Looking into it.
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FWIW this is happening in outdoor instanced missions too. It generally comes from moving a certain speed.
I've in Founder's Falls literally seen mobs that I have targeted despawn (these are static mobs, not an ambush chasing someone).
Just chiming in, myself.
Superspeeding in the Shadow Shard, some of those nasty Rilaruu spawned litterally under me- then immedately held me and proceeded to kill. The same thing happened in PI with some spawning illusionists- again resulting in death.
I wasn't entirely sure this is a bug, but it certainly seems new to me. It might be connected with the very high incidence of lagbombs that have seemed to hit...
I'd love a fix on this, certainly if it's happening on the lower levels when there's less chance of being albe to survive it. I'm pretty new to PI/te shard so I thought this just might be a new 'feature' of the higher level mobs.
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I have only two outstanding complaints about the Hollows, and one is that mobs are spawning literally on top of players. (
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Now that IS definitely an issue. Looking into it.
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Actually, now that you mention it, I had this happen to me as well. I wasnt super speeding, or super leaping, or flying, or teleporting... I was running with sprint(unenhanced) and had a group despawn to my right and respawn on my head. I figured it was the games way of telling me to go to sleep... so I did.. I dont think I bugged it because I have been used to SWG and such.. never had it happen in CoH before though..
Statesman,
I can confirm mobs in The Hollows spawning right on top of me when I am using Siphon Speed. I have died at least 200 yards away from such mobs twice. However, that is FINE with me. Again, PLEASE leave The Hollows fun the way it is now.
The mob spawning is definatly awry in that zone. Any other place, I would attribute it to travelling to fast (SS, SJ, etc). But any character in that zone is usuing sprint, and possibly swift, which is more than slow enough for the server to generate mobs before they enter visual range.
I've encountered the "Mobs spawning right on top of you" bug int he hollows. That *definitelly* should be looked into, it tend to lead to a quick, messy death.
However, I am not in favor of toning down the Hollows *again*. The current level of difficulty (The Stuns vastlly lowered, hurricane less common) is perfectlly fine for a hazard zone in my opinion.
I am also highlly against removing the lowbie outcasts elemental attacks- they're not that much nastier than a gun, really, and they're interesting. I don't want just another bunch of Hellions and Skulls- that's what Hellions and Skulls are for!- Especially since I'm gonna keep bumping into these guys in Steel Canyon and Boomtown. It will seriouslly rob the flavor from the Outcasts, and in my opinion, not signifigantlly alter the difficulty- just as much as you ended up making things *too* hard, you're now running the risk of making things too easy and stealing something special from the game in the process. I beg you Statesman, to reconsider doing further changes, and find a happy medium.
Tygara - 50 Claws/Regen/Power Scrapper, Virtue- Member of Kitties on the Prowl.
Shadeburn - Dark/Rad Defender, Virtue- Member of Catch 'Em Crew
Nature Boy' - Elec/Ice Blaster, Virtue - Member of Young Phalanx
Yes, my new character's first... and so far only... defeat happened when I was jogging, with stealth on, and a large group of Outcasts spawned right around me.
I mean, I was directly in the middle of them. Surrounded on all sides. This was in the middle of the Hollows, as I was trying to get back to the Atlas gate from a door mission. At least my trip back to Atlas Park was very quick...
I just wanted to add my two cents in that I really like how the Outcasts and Trolls aren't just another generic gang. Maybe they are a little on the overpowered side, but I really like that they use attacks consistent with their style, and don't all just break out shotguns and baseball bats. It adds a lot to the flavor of the game, and that's something I really enjoy.
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I just wanted to add my two cents in that I really like how the Outcasts and Trolls aren't just another generic gang. Maybe they are a little on the overpowered side, but I really like that they use attacks consistent with their style, and don't all just break out shotguns and baseball bats. It adds a lot to the flavor of the game, and that's something I really enjoy.
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I completely agree. Don't get rid of their new powers! I think it gives them a great flavour, much more so than they had before. I'm not one of the 'Hey, keep the game difficult, I like it more this way!' crazies. Those new Trolls are harsh. But rather than taking their new powers away, could you just slash the damage in half on the minions instead?
If there's anything I want to see gone, it's the Earth powers that the Trolls have suddenly picked up. Stone Mallet? Me Troll, me no understand new Earth power! It seems a bit out of place with their other powers. Maybe those upper-ranked Trolls should be getting more Superstrength melee powers instead, maybe even Rage?
All I figure is, stylistically the changes brought about in Issue 2 were a step forwards, not back. Why change this? Instead, look at the issues really bugging people at the practical level:
Why are they doing so much damage so quickly?
Why do I keep getting knocked down?
Just what is the difference between a Troll Gunner and a Troll Bruiser now, anyway?
Why doesn't the Outcast Torch have a melee punching attack like his compatriots?
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The Hollows is a Hazard Zone - just like Perez Park
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Isn't it a Trial Zone so it should have larger spawns then Perez?
Casual gaming is dead. I'm out, /salute.
Take care everyone.
Why are they doing so much damage so quickly?
Because there are so many of them at once, usually.
Why do I keep getting knocked down?
It looks like Disorients on at least some of the Troll Super Strength attacks got changed to Knockdowns. They were probably changed from Jab to Punch. Knockdowns are marginally less annoying than Disorients because they will not drop your toggles, and majorly more annoying because Disciplines offer no protection against Knockdowns.
Just what is the difference between a Troll Gunner and a Troll Bruiser now, anyway?
The Gunner can lower your Defense before he starts pounding on you....
Why doesn't the Outcast Torch have a melee punching attack like his compatriots?
He does, Scorch, level 1 Fiery Melee power. That's the move where he reaches out for you with both hands. Torch AI seems to prefer ranged attacks, though; they're the last to close for melee.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I have only two outstanding complaints about the Hollows, and one is that mobs are spawning literally on top of players. (
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Now that IS definitely an issue. Looking into it.
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Please do look into it! I started a new toon and this happened a bunch of times in the hollows. It was not just localized to that zone. I had a similiar issue in Steel Canyon. I heard from someone it may be due to some sort of new lag, and rubber-banding effect.
Ok heres hard im a lvl 2 emp /enrgy Toon so i have whimpy enrgy bolt my fists and healing aura my mission go kill 5 lvl 3 clockworks ... now i did it by pulling the bad guys to the zone exit , burning every inspiration i had / won and zoning out to heal up 7 times .. didnt die once son yes its hard but ... tactics WORK .. my character is in no way a fighter and is being built to be a team healer , but with a little care i can still get thew job done solo .... and for referance i re did the mission with a lvl 2 claw scapper and he kill four lvl 3 on one after another the only failed on the last one as he suffered a run of 5 misses !! and died , but had the last clock down to 2 hits from dead , again i used tactics to keep moving and hug corners so not all the clocks could get at me at the same time , doorways help in the same way ...
i think the lesson is yep its hard but use that lump of gery mush in your head and you can beat the bad guys .... 
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I have only two outstanding complaints about the Hollows, and one is that mobs are spawning literally on top of players. (
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Now that IS definitely an issue. Looking into it.
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It's not just in the Hollows. The wife and I have done a few door missions where that happens as well. I thought it may have just been a rendering issue with our new video cards (just upgraded from GF3 Ti500/GF4 MX440 to FX5900XT's in both of our machines), but since someone else is mentioning it, I thought I'd drop in my $.02 influence.
Mainly happened in CoT "cave" type missions originating from Talos or IP (can't recall, but that's where we're both getting missions from currently). Sorry, I didn't get the mission/map specifics, nor did I /bug it, but I will next time if I see it again.
I COMPLETELY agree that the trolls and outcasts should keep the powers they have now. (But earth powers for trolls?)
What should be done is tone down their damage a little and maybe less secondary effects. (Being stunned by outcast minions just seams wrong). Keep secondary effects to lt's and bosses please.
Make the mobs like they are supposed to be: Minions=cannon fodder, but can swamp a hero.
LT's: almost on par with a hero. An advanced minion that takes longer to defeat.
Bosses: on par with a hero, and can stand toe to toe with one.
Torden - Lvl 50 Electric blast / Electric manipulation / Electric mastery Blaster - Triumph
General Thrax - Lvl 50 Mercenaries / Poison / Mace mastery Mastermind - Freedom
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Why are they doing so much damage so quickly?
Because there are so many of them at once, usually.
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I don't think so... I've jumped into groups of 12 blue Skulls before, and although it can almost end up with me in hospital, that's yet to happen. Close but no cigar. To try that with the Trolls, meanwhile... those Superstrength Jabs and Punches are much harder and faster in comparison. Each one seems to do the same damage as a regular attack perpetrated by an ordinary ganger; but the difference here is, the Troll can chain straight into another attack. At least the ganger has the decency to wait!
I love the new Troll and Outcast powers, I do! ^_^ I just want to see the actual damage knob turned down a bit, especially on the Trolls. Certainly not so that they are at the same level of difficulty as a Skull or Hellion, by any means. But as an incredibly rough number, it seems that the Trolls are maybe twice as difficult - certainly, I feel like I've gone from being able to take out four equal-level gangers, to taking out maybe two similar Trolls. And if we get into +1 territory, there's an actual posibility that on a bad streak I have to run before arresting even one Troll.
Actually, you know what would be great? Turning down the Troll accuracy too. All that Supradine and raging can't be doing anything for their aim!
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Why do I keep getting knocked down?
It looks like Disorients on at least some of the Troll Super Strength attacks got changed to Knockdowns. They were probably changed from Jab to Punch. Knockdowns are marginally less annoying than Disorients because they will not drop your toggles, and majorly more annoying because Disciplines offer no protection against Knockdowns.
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Yup. Not really sure whether it's a step up though... more of a step slightly up, but mostly to the side. If a Troll hits me with a KD, then I'm looking forward to probably being hit at least twice more in the attack chain before I'm back up again. If there are other Trolls around, at present level that can very easily mean seeing half of my health disappear in a matter of seconds, with *no* way to escape or otherwise counter.
Again, I'm loving the powers but the KDs for Trolls minions should be turned down too... maybe even off entirely. To me, the most important change with the Issue 2 Trolls is an artistic one; the new powers they have gained really translate into a unified appearence: every Troll has the capability to hit you with a good looking, golden-halo'd punch to the ribcage. To me, that's done a lot to subconciously outline their identity. Outcasts? Elemental powers. Trolls? Now I instantly think 'Superstrength', and that's cool.
To me, pulling out the actual new Superstrength powers would be a huge mistake. The problem definately lies in the way the powers are implemented. Rather than directly using the same powers available to Heroes, I think it would be best to take the good parts - the look, the animation, - and then alter the stats of said powers to better fit the Trolls. Should regular minions have Superstrength damage? I don't think so. But why can't the Trolls have the 'appearence' of Superstrength attacks?
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Just what is the difference between a Troll Gunner and a Troll Bruiser now, anyway?
The Gunner can lower your Defense before he starts pounding on you....
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Really? I'm not being sarcastic; I genuinly can't tell the difference. ^_^ Last fight I had, a Troll Gunner took some potshots at me with his submachine gun and then ran over to finish the job. His friend, who for legal reasons we shall call 'Trollkin Bruiser', ran over to me for a bit of manly hand to hand sparring - but not before softening the target with a couple of bursts from his submachine gun. Wait... which one was which again?
I think the problem here is that all Troll minions have merged into one type, and whilst understandable, that needs to be pulled back a little. The actual mechanics are pretty good, I think. Rather, I'd like to see the Bruisers be returned to using their humble weedy handguns. And I would also like to see the Troll Gunners keep their weapon out when fighting, thus identifying themselves more clearly.
(I mean, personally, I'd love to see the Gunners get a 'Superstrength' golden-glow version of the 5th Column's infamous 'I have a gun and I can still brawl with you using the other hand, ja!' maneuver. Then maybe a new animation where the Troll uses their Superstrength to slam the stock of the gun in your face. Modify Kick to work whilst the weapon is in hand, keep the golden-aura theme. Then finally, when the Troll starts to get enraged (presumably from losing HP) then can grab their gun by the business end and start swinging it like a club... how Troll would that be? ^_^)
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Why doesn't the Outcast Torch have a melee punching attack like his compatriots?
He does, Scorch, level 1 Fiery Melee power. That's the move where he reaches out for you with both hands. Torch AI seems to prefer ranged attacks, though; they're the last to close for melee.
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Ah, I thought maybe that was the Torch's melee attack. It doesn't look like much though, does it? I mean I understand if they want to keep the Torches hanging back... but personally, I'd rather see all of the Outcasts mix it up a bit. Remember the days when we were so niave, that to us the only difference between a Brick and a Lead Brick was the one had stone-covered fists and the other a giant mallet? (Oh, and the latter would always run away. ^_^) I liked those days.
I think it would be fun to differentiate the different Outcasts further; into those whose Elemental attacks have focused on melee, mixed or long-range fighting. Nothing too scary, I just think it would be neat to see a Torch hit me with Scorch... or maybe a (currently-non-existant) flaming punch; or maybe even a weak-***** Fire Sword. Again, the premise being the look of things, not giving the Outcasts more damage (like they need it.) Which again, means divorcing their superpowers from the current Hero superpowers, and giving them versions with all the look and flavour but not neccesarily the same stats.
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This was a serious error in design. We've already toned them down once - and we're going to be equipping them with weapons similar to those used by Hellions and Skulls at that level.
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Glad to hear it. 
I had a very rude awakening to the new low level changes the other day when playing my lvl 11 scrapper for the first time since Issue 2 went live. I took the Hollow mission/contact, and got the first "Clear 10 Outcast" mission. I quickly located a tasty pack of level 6 Outcast w/ a couple Trolls - 5 levels below me - and jumped in to clear them fast, to move on to the next mission. I was stunned to notice a few seconds later that this pack of grays, that shouldn't have even been able to hit me, had reduced me to about 25% life with their first volley or two. If I hadn't had a pile of Luck & Health inspirations I'd have been wasted by a pile of mobs 5 levels below me. The new content definitely needs some tweaking heh.
I completly agree with the title in that one can no longer level up to level 10 over night. I remember the days when I could start an alt and have him/her up to 10 and then decide I don't like the power set and just delete the toon in a night. Where over a weekend I could level up soloing two or three toons to at least level 8 no problem. This made it fun for me to start a new toon. But now WOW is it hard.
I've had a new katana/inv scrapper at level 7 for at least 2 weeks because it is so much more difficult to play her (read: not impossible, just not as easy). Everyone knows low level alts are better when they at least get a travel or more powers, slotted up and now it is more challenging to get that alt higher. Which in turn may mean that I may take more pride in my alts than just deleting when I want to try something new.
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Oh, and everyone has posted how the low level game is screwed. Devs say their going to fix it and no one is holding there breathe.
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It is good to know that it wasn't just me. But I am holding my breath for them to adress this issue. This has been the best game in terms of dev response. Usually you don't get a chance to respond at all, like any other non-mmorpg game. Why did they make the multiplayer game in battle fronts 1 per x-box?
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Cheers to Statesman and everyone else working on CoH, I can't complain much after reading his reply and what is being done about it.
This is a big reason why I'll be playing CoH 2 years from now
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/agree! Again the devs at CoH are doing a fan-f'ing-tastic job keeping me interested in wanting to play the game. I met Jack at the Chicago Con too, what a great guy. I was kind of hoping he would hit whirlwind and change into his Statemen costume, now that would have made me sign up for life!
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That's not a bug. The Hollows is a Hazard Zone - just like Perez Park. It's spawns are designed for small groups of heroes. If you're a solo player, you should be able to avoid the spawns, if you're careful. If you're hunting, then find a friend.
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That is one thing I don't like though. Many times I don't like grouping, especially in the early levels. With my main, when I was going through the growing pains, I had so much fun soloing and was leveling at a pretty great rate. Maybe people were leveling too fast for their liking but now its not that easy to solo or you get the shaft 
and for that reason, I agree with the following poster:
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Casual gaming is dead. I'm out, /salute.
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Except that I am not out. I guess I just need to get used to grouping now.
On the flip side however, they didn't make it harder for my level 45 main. She still is a soloing machine and nothing is really all that challenging (well, I stil;l can't solo level 50s effectively, but soon muahahaha). What I mean, is that I HAVE to group with her again only to make the missions more challenging. When I street hunt, I fight level 47s, 48s and 49s. Why can't I fight that level in missions instead of 45s & 46s which are a cake walk for me?
MAKE THE GAME HARDER FOR HIGHER LEVELS, and leave the low guys alone haha.
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so the game is harder at low level, and missions are crazy hard for lowbies in certain archetypes (ie anything without really powerful low level defense), but what is the big deal with that? I mean, its all either new subscribers who we dont want around anyway
i think it should be near impossible to get through outbreak, nip the whole "new user" or "alt" thing in the bud. let the outbreak contaminated all have mass chain holds and lvl 32 nukes i say.
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If we don't get new subscribers to the game, then Cryptic will have to lay people off, thus not responding to our requests, making the game lamer, yada yada yada.
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Should regular minions have Superstrength damage?
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Well, that'd be one way to lower their damage; give them the same damage as an actual super-strength tanker. Unless they have Knockout Blow, you'd hardly know they were there.
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Casual gaming is dead. I'm out, /salute.
Take care everyone.
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Unfortunately my SG and I are very close to this same decision. There is no doubt that casual gaming is dead in CoH. It surely was short-lived. If I could see some progress in fixing the problems on Training Room, I might stick around, but the patch notes and actual gaming are not in agreement. Sad! 
Hm... that's funny, I just soloed my way to level 12 doing exclusively missions.
Only once did I duo a mission, and that was just for the "two bombs at the same time" mission. Yeah, I've gotten some debt along the way, but debt at low levels is a joke, work it off so fast it's ridiculous.
Just arrested Frostfire about 5 minutes ago by the way, solo. I did get one more "pk by devs" returning from the mission (being chain immobilized by a group of mobs that spawned in front of me as I was running counts as a pk by devs to me), but I'll work that debt off just as quick...
I guess you're right, the low level game is too hard 
[energy/electricity blaster, not a powergamer, been working on this alt character a few hours a day for several days, but frankly... even casual gamers should use their fricking brains when approaching difficult battles... if you don't do that blame yourselves not the devs]
Vega
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I have only two outstanding complaints about the Hollows, and one is that mobs are spawning literally on top of players. (
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Well I had the pleasure of having mobs spawn UNDER me .. hehe (mud looking dudes in the north east fissure) ... scared the symbol off my costume.
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Global=@Thornster
I've been solo-ing Kings Row and my Kings Row contact offered me a timed mission so I took it. It ended up being in the Hollows on the far side of the map. I was 7th level and died 3 times trying to get there and once on the way back. Did I have a choice other than to fail the mission?