Should villians use powers above their level?
By
AkaiRyu,
Posted on: 2004-09-26 10:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I vote yes.
Super Villains should be allowed to have powers. Considering as heroes we're restricted to certain sets and combinations, don't forget their Villains and not Heroes . They give the villains varied powersets to increase the difficulty. It'd be pretty boring (IMO) to fight something that uses the exact same typical powersets of a hero because you know what to expect from them, and at their level, what limited powers they have, and what they are capable of. Too much information on your enemy to truly make him/her hard enough to warrent a challenge. I don't see what the huge problem is with them using powers outside their level. That would pretty mean you would get upset if you saw a level 32 Hero using their strongest attack in King's Row since they've spoiled the "surpise" factor of seeing the move for the first time.
I vote no.
There's clear balance issues to allowing it, esp. given that the typical player doesn't know what tactics to expect from a higher-casting mob. (e.g. attacking a scorcher in steel canyon can lead him to summon fire imps! A level 32 power from a level 16 mob, that can decimate a party).
More importantly... giving villains powers before a hero can get them means that a hero is -always- going to feel weaker, and less potent than a Lt or Boss of the same level. How heroic am I when everyone else is better at what I do than I am?
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I vote no.
There's clear balance issues to allowing it, esp. given that the typical player doesn't know what tactics to expect from a higher-casting mob. (e.g. attacking a scorcher in steel canyon can lead him to summon fire imps! A level 32 power from a level 16 mob, that can decimate a party).
More importantly... giving villains powers before a hero can get them means that a hero is -always- going to feel weaker, and less potent than a Lt or Boss of the same level. How heroic am I when everyone else is better at what I do than I am?
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FWIW, whenever I've hunted Outcast bosses in Steel, the fire imps have never been more than an inconvenience, either solo or in a team.
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Yes.
Statesman said
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Yes.
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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.
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Yes.
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Well that settles that.
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I'm more worried about Lead Scorchers or Shockers who also cast Heal on their minions.... What the heck kind of power set is THAT? That's utterly unfair, since not one of us can create a character who can zapp AND heal.
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you forgot their hurricane ...
an that whole Murk thing withthe oppressive gloom ...... it's not as if the zombies weren't spitting out cones (which there is no defense for for many levels) of a damage code (which there is no DR for) as well as popping players in the head for decent damage as well .... and it's not like they don't have a mob with a 2 second activation to rez ..... and it's not like they don't have attacks that slow heroes when heroes most heroes have one or two atacks (galaxy city) ..
i mean what's unfair about them getting those level 32+ powers as well ....
Definetly.
We can think, they can't.
*highfives statesman*
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Statesman said
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Yes.
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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.
[/ QUOTE ]Nah..it just means there are a lot of good ol-school role players at Cryptic. And we're the beneficiaries.
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Definetly.
We can think, they can't.
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After reading this board for awhile I'm not sure this statement holds up
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Definetly.
We can think, they can't.
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After reading this board for awhile I'm not sure this statement holds up
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Harsh...... not debating the accuracy, but still harsh! 
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Yes.
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My vote doesn't count. Statesman is a Tyrant!
Er, wait...he agrees with me.
Nevermind.
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A lot of people like to discover these powers for themselves. Nothing ruins the feeling of looking forward to high level (unseen) powers like having a villian throw them in your face at level 6.
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I agree, this sucks. This should be changed immediately.
We should also terminate the accounts of any player with a higher level hero than yours, because they might ruin your immersion by using powers you haven't achieved yet.
Oh, and we should probably destroy all copies of the game manuals, because they describe some of the powers. And while we're at it, we should shut down all the CoH Web sites, becuase some of them have screen shots showing powers you haven't achieved yet.
As you level up, we'll let some of the players with terminated accounts log back on, as long as they promise not to outlevel you.
Think that should about cover it. Thanks for expressing your concern about this.
All I'll say on the matter is this: fighting tesla clocks as an electric blaster exposed me to tesla cage (well, with a slight difference -- theirs is a sleep -- thank goodness -- and the player version is a hold) very early on. And I'll be darned if that didn't build up my anticipation of getting it at level 18, long after I was encountering clockworks on a regular basis.
In fact, I was so stoked to get it, finally, that I went on a rampage in Skyway, caging up all the clockwork tesla knights I could find. And there was much trash talk. Oh yes, it was a loud room that night.
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Yes.
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Help, help, I'm being repressed. Come see the violence inherited in the system! 
Nothing like something a bit different to spice up life. Kudos to the Statesman 
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Statesman said
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Yes.
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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.
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LOL, how can it be cheating when the Devs make the rules?!?
Seriously, villains get something like 4 powers total on average, a few more for LT's and Bosses. Players get that many by level 4. By level 14, we've got 9. I'd much rather get the wider assortment of powers that players get than only get a few powers total no matter how powerful they are.
Players and Villains follow MUCH different rulesets. There's nothing wrong with them having power combinations that we don't.
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Well my rebuttal (to those who say its good because it adds more challenge) is that you can make low level bosses, lieutenants, powerful without giving them high level powers. (and can we PLEASE not use "hurl boulder" as a standard attack for anything without a gun? It does massive ranged damage)
Damned, Bonedaddy's...both were really tough without the need for super high powers.
Also, I think its nice to save some of the high powers for...high level bosses. If a level 14 fire boss is already using fire imps then what will a level 34 or 44 fire boss use? Fire Blast?
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I agree... and that's about all I have to say. *nods*
But whatever though. Looks like it't not going to get changed so ya just have to deal with it and hope for the best.. *shrugs*
Just curious - who decided what levels these powers were? Some AT's get one power much earlier than another might get it (Kinetic primary vs. Kinectic secondary)
And most bad guys have always gottenn powers before they could use them (everyone remembers shamans in EQ casting sow indoors); it's to compensate for your (hopefully) level of intelligence
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Statesman said
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Yes.
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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.
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No, they HAVE to cheat to even have a CHANCE to beat you. How boring the game would be if they didn't.
Has anyone thought of the programming side of things. I am sure it is much less of a nightmare to set what powers a mobile can use regardless of level, instead of setting a series of checks up to see if the mobile can use said power at each level. We can have mobiles spawn at varied levels (like how some of the low level mobiles can spawn at 40+ in portal missions). If the developers made it so a mobile gets powers based on level like players do, think of the nightmare of fighting a mobile that is 40+ with every power in each powerset availble to it. Heck lets throw another rench into this, if the mobiles get powers like players then they would need to get slots for those powers too...thus making the mobiles even stronger. Hell no do I want to fight a Tank Smasher that has a 6 slotted handclap with disorient durrations. And screw the idea of fighting a Rikti Swordsman boss that has 6 slotted damage SO sword attack...god a tanker with 90% lethal resist would be taken down one shot.
I agree with Statesman and others here that mobiles should have access to powers outside their range.
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I'm more worried about Lead Scorchers or Shockers who also cast Heal on their minions.... What the heck kind of power set is THAT? That's utterly unfair, since not one of us can create a character who can zapp AND heal.
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Let me introduce you to Power Pools. There's 10 to choose from, but you can only have 4 pools total. One of those pools is called Medicine, and the first power you can get (starting at level 6) is Aid Other. You can only use it on others, you'll have to wait to get Aid Self before you can heal yourself.
Or you can be a Defender, and have Empathy and Electricity, so it completely fits your requirements. You can have Zapp and Heal (Heal Other at level 1 and Zapp at level 20).
Hope that answers your questions. 
Just to throw my 0.02 Inf in.
I can see why mobs are given powers above there level, but I think two issues have to be considered in doing that.
Firstly it often means that the players have no possibility of having anything that could counter it. Which can be more than mildly frustrating.
Second many players gain enjoyment from working to get cool new powers. It can be a bit disheartening to see a mob using a power on you 15+ levels before you even have the chance to get it.
A sort of related point with Issue #2 and the Hollows zone.
I use to like the gradual introduction of new factions. You worked up from Skulls and Hellions to Lost and Vahz and Outcast and Trolls. Now it all seems a bit jammed together in a muddle. I guess I haven't seen anything in the Hollows that I can't find in Steel or Sky or Boomtown, but from the times I have been in the Hollows the loss of that gradual unveiling has seemed to be missing.
regards, Screwloose.
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Statesman said
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Yes.
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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.
[/ QUOTE ]Nah..it just means there are a lot of good ol-school role players at Cryptic. And we're the beneficiaries.
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WOOOOO!!! Let's hear it for unqualified buzz word approval ....
WOOOOOO!!!!!! next time, we're goiong to time warp back to the eighties and say "radical" and "awesome".
anytime you want to go ahea nad explain how this is "old school" ... feel free ....
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Well my rebuttal (to those who say its good because it adds more challenge) is that you can make low level bosses, lieutenants, powerful without giving them high level powers. (and can we PLEASE not use "hurl boulder" as a standard attack for anything without a gun? It does massive ranged damage)
Damned, Bonedaddy's...both were really tough without the need for super high powers.
Also, I think its nice to save some of the high powers for...high level bosses. If a level 14 fire boss is already using fire imps then what will a level 34 or 44 fire boss use? Fire Blast?
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I'm not sure why you're saying this is a bad thing, or why it's only a bad thing now as opposed to how it's been happening all along. Is it more that the powers in question inconvenience you? Believe me, oppressive gloom on murks inconvenience me every time I take a character through the first 20 levels. It wasn't much fun after issue 1 went live to have a Lead Scorcher put me in a ring of fire and send his imps to have his way with me, either, but, well...
So, why is this suddenly an issue now? That's what makes me curious.
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