Should villians use powers above their level?

ummm..yep..nothing old-school about this.

D&D badguys powers and skills were all about "what level the opponent was". (Unless theres something older, dont think chainmail counts..)

Seems like I've played a lot o games that were fairly successful that didn't use this particular game-balancing technique, so I dont really buy the argument that its a MUST else the mobs dont have a chance.

But, COH is still.....groovy.

Yes

On the one hand higher level powers seem ok to me, it does help for the lack of intelligence of the mobs. However, at level 8 facing Frostfire with fireimps AND jack frost is just resoundingly bad. Some for of fireblast and iceblast would have been more than enough to get the point across.

I don't mind the enemy having higher level powers but after a point it just becomes rediculous.

I vote yes, Villains should have any powers that the devs think would make them challenging and interesting. Seeing as they only get, what, 3-5 powers to choose from in total ever I can't see how it unbalances them. A level 32 Controller isn't hugely powerful merely by getting their "pet" powers, they also have 17 other powers and SO enhancements. If a level 6 villain had 15 different powers, all chosen from those available at level 6, I think they'd be pretty effective. Compared to some current villains who get one really cool power and not much else of interest.

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I'm more worried about Lead Scorchers or Shockers who also cast Heal on their minions.... What the heck kind of power set is THAT? That's utterly unfair, since not one of us can create a character who can zapp AND heal.

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Um.... an empathy/electrical defender? I could be wrong but when i was playing with defenders that was one of the options

And I would vote No. (Even knowing Statesman's vote.)

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SuperVillains are sometimes faced down by more than 1 hero, if they were 100% equal and using no powers above their own level, it would make a dull fast fight for a group of Heros.


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When's the last time you went into a mission and found a 1-to-1 ratio between players and minions, lieutenants and bosses? Better yet, when's the last time you went into a mission and found an 8-to-1 ratio in favor of the players? Arch-Villains and Monsters are the exceptions, and even an 8-to-1 ratio (once we've managed to kill off all the others around it) still leaves groups with casualties.

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Since the Supervillains are controlled by the computer, letting them have powers above what their level is allowed, somewhat makes up for the fact that they can not think on their feet so to speak as well as a hero controlled by a thinking person, they need some form of an extra edge.


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This is kind of a cop-out. Essentially, we're over-powering mobs/NPCs to compensate for lack of AI handling.

As an example, in EverQuest, there used to be a problem with mobs not being able to reach players because of pathing issues. Rather than adjusting the general pathing routine, or allowing the mobs to jump over certain areas, the solution became simply allowing these mobs to "re-appear" on top of the player. True, a player could exploit pathing problems, but couldn't another solution have been to have the AI simply move out of range so it couldn't be hit unless the player changed positions to some place the mob could reach?

Don't get me wrong, though. I consider the AI in CoH excellent. Actually, better than any of the MMOs I've played, and even many single player games. Giving them powers almost 25 levels above them seems silly, though. I can understand a few levels--four to six levels above, but seeing a level 8 or 9 Shocker or Scorcher pull up a Lightning Storm or Fire Imps diminishes the "Hero" factor for me. Yes, their powers are scaled down by comparison, but really... why not just give them more hit points, more endurance, or more minions and lieutenants for us to deal with?

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Many villains in comicbooks always seem to be more powerful than the heros that they fight. This makes it much more 'heroic' for the Heros when they do triumph over whatever villain they are fighting by using their head or a better strategy.


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I do agree that more strategy should be required to complete these missions. But this can still be achieved without overpowering low level mobs.

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There is nothing very heroic about beating up some villain with 5 SuperHeros that any 1 of them could have done alone, this is one of the reasons I like AVs and Monsters in my missions


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Still in agreement, but as mentioned above, we're talking about bosses--not AVs and Monsters.


Akai Ryu
40something Radiation Defender
Justice

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WOOOOO!!! Let's hear it for unqualified buzz word approval ....

WOOOOOO!!!!!! next time, we're goiong to time warp back to the eighties and say "radical" and "awesome".

anytime you want to go ahea nad explain how this is "old school" ... feel free ....

[/ QUOTE ]AHH! I've been exposed!

But seriously, I meant he's from the older style where story mattered most, when they had the most heart. Not the newer faux-RPGs what are more concerned about stats, and who has the most orders of magnitude when it comes to HP.

But don't mind me...I have Nemesisi to hunt.

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Don't get me wrong, though. I consider the AI in CoH excellent. Actually, better than any of the MMOs I've played, and even many single player games. Giving them powers almost 25 levels above them seems silly, though. I can understand a few levels--four to six levels above, but seeing a level 8 or 9 Shocker or Scorcher pull up a Lightning Storm or Fire Imps diminishes the "Hero" factor for me. Yes, their powers are scaled down by comparison, but really... why not just give them more hit points, more endurance, or more minions and lieutenants for us to deal with?


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I think that fighting more villains with more HP is a lot less interesting than fighting villains with better powers. I think it's a lot more satisfying, win or lose, to fight against something that can fight back in a cool or unique way.
If fights are going to be made challenging, the guys who use cool powers are going to stick in players' minds much more than the guys who can just take a beating longer, or outnumber the players.

Could've been worse.


He might have put it in a riddle

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Yes.



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Ah vintage Statesman. An answer that is not an answer. With a smirk to boot. I grow to dislike this guy more and more with each of his posts I see. He only comes here to have the fanboys swoon. This sort of crap is all he needs to do in order to get the spooge he so desperately desires though, so I expect it to continue.

What a goober.

Personally I think that villains should only be able to use the powers that are appropriate to their level, and their powers should always be tied to their endurance. Sorcerers with no endurance left freely teleport around and heal enemies to full health without it apparently being tied to their endurance.

Also, I think that enemy bosses should have the same endurance penalties for using debuffs that players do. Bosses can perma-spam debuffs, at will, and players have deadly endurance penalties attached to debuff toggle powers such as Enervating Field.

Also, bosses can spam all of their attack powers, to the extent of their endurance bar, all at once, seemingly without being limited by any power timers.

This leads to immense upfront damage, as powers are spammed over and over again killing players in a matter of a few seconds.

Even continuously eating healing inspirations, a human player will often be killed by massive numbers of shadow mauls, for example.

Scorcher bosses will often kill a player within 3 seconds because of this immense upfront damage, before a human player can cycle two or three attacks because of their power timer limitations.

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A lot of people like to discover these powers for themselves. Nothing ruins the feeling of looking forward to high level (unseen) powers like having a villian throw them in your face at level 6.

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I agree, this sucks. This should be changed immediately.

We should also terminate the accounts of any player with a higher level hero than yours, because they might ruin your immersion by using powers you haven't achieved yet.

Oh, and we should probably destroy all copies of the game manuals, because they describe some of the powers. And while we're at it, we should shut down all the CoH Web sites, becuase some of them have screen shots showing powers you haven't achieved yet.

As you level up, we'll let some of the players with terminated accounts log back on, as long as they promise not to outlevel you.

Think that should about cover it. Thanks for expressing your concern about this.

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Yep sucks seeing a power on a regular basis that you yourself won't get for a few months of playing. It some ways it makes the mobs cooler, but it makes the Heroes all the more impotent.

I think it is interesting when that happens. Makes the villians seem a little more realistic and makes battles surprising when they use those powers. I loved it and was surprised when I first saw a minion turn into a werewolf. Same when I saw them start to actually use real powers.

More so I wonder why they have these powers. They seem to be creeping in more and more often. I suspect there is a story element behind it. Just who is supplying them with these enhancements or powers or items that gives them these abilities- is some villian ramping up there powers through some devious alteration scheme. Could it be some sort of crafting ability, to mold abilities and powers based on the powerset the villians have?

I have to wonder with the villians keeping all the heroes busy street sweeeping that maybe the heroes didn't manage to contain all the villians plots so we now are and keep getting to see these villians distract the heroes and become even more powerful due to hero inaction and lack of a real response to these higher level villians. I mean if you don't defeat them they will eventually end up back restarting there schemes up again. Maybe some arcs or TF's havn't been cleaned up in a while allowing villains to plot again. Maybe there have been some totally missed arcs that would allow for this to happen. Where are the heroes and why have they not uncovered these plots. Why are they still distracted with the chaos provided for on the streets and not looking elsewhere for these schemes.

I also have to wonder if the powers being seen, on lower level minions, are the ones most used in the game by players. Maybe villisna are learning these commonly used powers. Just a thoght ;-) Maybe they are reading the forums, using FOTM's and checking out stratregy guides, etc... and using the powers and strategies in an attemtp to defeat the heroes.

btw, since some others mentioned posts about the devs vs the players are we takin a DvP system. In the ramp up for PvP style play when do we get to have the devs online with a character, or grouped together and have mass battles against the devs ;-) with there favorite AT or even as a villian?

I really don't see why a villan would be restricted to the same power sets that I do. Kind of surprising being hit by a higher level attack than what a "hero" is allowed to choose.

I think villans should never use powers above their level and even then it should only be on context of their archtype. I have witnessed criminals use powers that are in essence a Blaster/Tank/Controller combo. This is simply grossly overpowered. I also don't like the basic premise of criminals using powers that are not accessable by heros of the same level. This is just a tease and overpowered as well.

Bottom line is, why should a criminal get to handclap me to stun after initially blasting me and then after I recover and try to run away use a controller power to hold me while he closes to finish the job. Simply insulting...

Villians have been using powers above their levels since the game was introduced. I guess with this latest update its become more obvious. That doesn't bother me.

What bothers me more is that so many villain powers look just like the hero counterpart. In a way it is a letdown to see some guy use a power at levvel 10 that you only get at level 32.

I can accept that some powers have more of a generic look, and they'll be the same for both heroes and villains. But I also think that certain powers, particularly the 8th and 9th powers in our skillsets should look more impressive and unique.

Yes they should.

The AI in this game has the distinct disadvantage of not being remotely intelligent. In order to add challenge, the mobs are given real powers! Wow, that's tough. But it's the only thing keeping this game from being a whack-a-mole contest.

My only complaint is that they should use end a little more like players do.

Regards,

Camdar

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WOOOOO!!! Let's hear it for unqualified buzz word approval ....

WOOOOOO!!!!!! next time, we're goiong to time warp back to the eighties and say "radical" and "awesome".

anytime you want to go ahea nad explain how this is "old school" ... feel free ....

[/ QUOTE ]AHH! I've been exposed!

But seriously, I meant he's from the older style where story mattered most, when they had the most heart. Not the newer faux-RPGs what are more concerned about stats, and who has the most orders of magnitude when it comes to HP.

But don't mind me...I have Nemesisi to hunt.

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AHHHHHHHHHHHH. well yeah.

i'll agree with you there. and i will say that for all the posts i make, the story of the city is great (and more important, very comicy with how the szones deal with the backstory) with a few exceptions .... those exceptions usually being when they come up with a bad subplot for whay a game mechanic works a certain way. capes come right to mind, in the way they are ready at level 20 (not tha hero 1 was rememebred). but my biggest pet peeve "gap story" is secret ids.

i've heard a lot of stuff on secret ids. but to be honest, they are all lame and don't even really talk about the whole reason heroes hide their ids.

it's just such a deep pool of the super hero story .... to try to lame explain it away .... is just wrong.

Well look at it as if they were temporarily given the use of a special object to defeat hero xyz. Perhaps their council or leader, whatever granted them one just like we are once in awhile granted a special power. Like the poster above stated the AI is at a disadvantage facing a player. I find it very rewarding defeating a villan after dancing all around trying to stay alive and winning. I find it a major rush when i'm all up on inspirirations and endurance is down and health in the red while standing over the fresh bodies of my foes! So no I do not think that villans using powers I don't have access to is a problem.

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Statesman said
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Yes.



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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.

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Oh Puh-lease. I say bring it. A well-lead, balanced group that stays smart and plays tactical is going to take those "cheats" and mush them into atomic bits and peices. Folks who are used to street-hunting are going to get their heads handed to them. Street hunts require far less team coordination and almost no tactical coordination. Missions- given their higher level mobs and concentrations - do. The one exception may be street hunts in hazard zones, but I'm still undecided.

So, unless the Devs go over the top (ala very hard mode in TW or emp mode in Civ), a balanced, coordinate, tactical group will pwn the cheaterz

And by tactical I mean simple stuff like don't stand there after a pull, grab a corner - and don't have the rest of the team standing in the open getting picked off by ranged weapons - set tactical ambushes around corners\behind terrain features, etc. The best team work I've ever seen, circumstances allowing, have been the cross-fire tanker taunt\provoke. Talk about complete destruction of your opponnents.

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Yes.



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Everybody tag this qoute..When CoV comes out, I expect to be able to use 20th level powers as soon as I log in

Roger that I can't wait to be a villain and have both Controller and Tanker powers. MWhhahhaha.

This message is for the devs/moderators/owners/whathaveyous at NCSoft/Cryptic Studios...

The jealousy burns in me over the lvl 12+ villians having powers that "Heroes" have to wait until thier late 20's and early 30's to get. I have two choices as a result of the "Yes." answer given by Statesman:

1. Get beyond the fact that the villians i fight on new characters that i build will have many powers that will not have the opportunity to get for between 12-16 levels.

or

2. [censored], whine, and moan about it and pray to the nerf god to eliminate the travesty that is intentially UNBALANCED programming againt the human player .

with such a push for "balance", as seen in a plethora of posts by devs/moderators/owners/whathaveyous, you would think that would include the game itself, but apparently that "balance" push only applies to the people that put up 15$ a month...

I have to say that is very disappointing to know that my characters can and likely will be beaten by powers that they themselves cannot get when their levels are low...

I've said my peace.

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Do you know this for a fact?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but CoV is in development and the classes and powers have not been released and PvP setup is in mind.

Hard to be certain of anything in regards to CoV.

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If you think the devs are gonna let you have fire imps at 14 in CoV then I'd like to have some of what you're on. We don't know much about CoV, and common sense and the devs doesn't mix much, but they aren't gonna let you have a 9th tier power at 14.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

The way I feel after seeing the cheese firsthand is that most likely you will not have access to the powers but your minions will be uber L33t further adding to the virtual taunt to the guys behind the keys shelling out the dough. I pay to have the opportunity to have a light session or something scaled all the way up to it's current very challanging levels. Can I solo a blaster without incurring debt while also progressing at a decent rate? not right now... can I make a character that can stand up to the beating? yah, but tankers and Scrappers aren't my style. I think there are serious balance issues going on when I can't take my defenders on solo missions and my blasters get tooled for even thinking about taking on a mob that is white to them. UNCLE!!! UNCLE!!!