Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?

Venture · 09-27-2004 11:17 PM

Catch-up time!

This is just silliness. It's a fact of life, and part of human nature that people in general, are more prone to quit something that is too hard than too easy.

No, it is a fact of life that some people are more likely to give up trying to do something because it is too hard than if it were too easy. For some people the reverse is true. It is not at all clear which is the majority, particularly among gamers.

You're avoiding the point of his statement. If his wife got to that point the 2nd or 3rd play session the result could be the same.

It could be the same on the 20th or 30th play session too, but it probably wouldn't.

The point here is that if someone is taking the game at their own pace, leisurely proceding through the early levels, they are less likely to feel broadsided when they run into more powerful adversaries.

Here is some worldy advice that help you greatly. Everyone does not equal you. Meaning not everyone can excerise the same focus that you can.

That's their misfortune.

Show a little more understanding.

I understand them just fine. That doesn't mean they're not bad gamers.

Actually EQ did succeed because of it's mass appeal. More housewives and non gamers played it than ever before (at that time, before the Sims & Roller Coaster).

Nevertheless, the game offered nothing but PvE monster-bashing, and did so with a fairly steep learning curve.

Plus, EQ is very easy the first 10 levels.

It is not, even with recent changes to make the newbie stages easier. EQ teaches you in very short order that past the very early levels (under 5) mobs of even level are to be fought by groups, not individuals. It teaches you quickly that mobs of higher level can defeat you before you can even respond to the threat, and that some zones feature mobs of vastly higher level than the intended level range of PCs hunting in that zone. It teaches you that most goals worth achieving are going to require the aid of other players.

They can do this now and they dont need Controllers, Defenders or any suppoters if they dont want them. Just solo missions and hunt in non Hazard zones.

Of course, missions are likely to spawn in Hazard Zones, not to mention defeat-X tasks set in them, and street grinding is pretty slow until you get to Bricks or so.

You have to understand whites = optimal for the majority. NOT optimal for you.

I am very sorry, but if we are all playing the same game we all have to face the same difficulty. If three whites = one hero, then we can't have people taking on three yellows or three reds instead.

Look back at the most successful games of the past. ALL of them prove you wrong.

I would say that none of them prove me wrong, particularly EQ.

What the hell is that? Are you a mind reader? You might be skilled in the game but you're certainly not in reading comprehension. Go back and read my posts, I state that I want more challenge in the later levels numerous times.

No, I'm a skilled debater who recognizes a pro forma concession when he sees one. Your willingness to concede that there should be challenge at "higher levels" has no bearing on this discussion, doubly so when taking into account that we have no idea what you consider to be a valid level of challenge or at what level you will graciously permit this challenge to take place.

Irrelavent. We're talking about novice level mobs being too powerful, not about archvillain fights requiring support.

Actually, we are talking about the Hollows, which is a Hazard Zone, and thus expected to be more dangerous than City Zones.

You were pretty quick to toss off that straw-man link. The trouble here is that if a straw-man argument was presented, it was yours:

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What if the mob difficulty was closer to FFXI, or EQ, where you'd need a perfect or near-perfect party in order to safely take down an enemy? How is that any more interesting?

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Now, I can't speak about FFXI, never having played it, but I pointed out that in the general case EQ did not require a perfect or near-perfect party for anything except major raids. Your argument attempts to portray that level of difficulty as the norm in EQ and what is being argued in favor of for CoH -- which is not true, and is in fact a caricature of the opposing argument.

But not if the base scaling, at the minimum (one-person/solo) level, is too high.

There is no indication of this being the case for Scrappers. Other ATs may have missions they can't solo in the general case (leaving out simultaneous objective missions and missions requiring AV defeats), but they have no expectation of being able to solo everything thrown at them. They may well have to outlevel a mission or ask for help. My 20 Illusion/Rad guy had to ask a guildmate for help today with both the cape mission -- too many mobs in the capsule room -- and a Sky Raiders mission -- Jump Bots aren't impressed with Psi damage. My Scrappers have taken out everything thrown at them, including pairs of +1 Bosses.

There's a fine line between 'desired' and 'essential', and many people want to push it over into the latter.

The problem is that there is no line between 'desired' and 'unnecessary'.

Yeah, (Batman) snipes and hides around corners all the time.

Sure. Batman, at least in the modern era (70s to current), doesn't just wade into 20 guys and start swinging. He picks off stragglers first. He knocks out the lights, or uses smoke. He tricks the enemy into dividing their forces. Batman fights smart because he knows the lion can lose to a pack of jackals.

There's more to defense than just status protection, and there should be. Damage plays a signifigant part, and (for the most part) blasters have little to no ways to mitigate that as well.

As I said, Blasters can stack pool defenses and get almost as much melee and ranged Defense as a Super Reflexes Scrapper. They can also add Tough for smash/lethal resists. Blasters can actually get their hands on rather too much in the way of defenses for my tastes. The only thing they really can't protect themselves from are status changes, particularly Disorients.

And as mentioned, it's not blasters who have difficulty with chain stuns and sleeps; what about fire tankers, or ice tankers?

Firey Aura uses active defenses (Healing Flames, Burn) against status changes. Ice Armor's Wet Ice gives Defense against all forms of damage except Psi in addition to status defense, though I imagine it gives a lot less than Frozen or Glacial Armor.

Or Dark Armor scrappers, who have to choose between being held or being near-one-shotted?

Dark Armor pays for the versatility of its set with having three holes in its defenses and only one cork.

Of course, any of these can also stack pool defenses, notably Tough and Weave, to mitigate the effects of exclusive shields.

Or Empathy or Kinetic defenders, who have no self-usable status resistance powers?

A Defender's status protection is his teammates.

What build, what powers, what slots? What levels are the mobs being fought? Just because one or more carefully-specialized and planned builds can do it doesn't mean it's somehow universally easy; it just means they're throwing off the curve.

It doesn't matter. If any character can solo the zone then it can't be too difficult for groups, and the zone is intended for groups.

Pretty good for hazard-farming, certainly, but that doesn't mean it's easy; it just means you're prepared ahead of time for it.

"It is by scoring many points that one wins the war beforehand in the temple rehearsal of the battle; it is by scoring few points that one loses the war beforehand in the temple rehearsal of the battle. The side that scores many points will win; the side that scores few points will not win, let alone the side that scores no points at all. When I examine it in this way, the outcome of the war becomes apparent." -- Sun-Tzu

What level mobs? 5, 6? That's a limited region of the zone, to say the least.

Level 5, even cons.

And I can't see that sort of performance against 7 or 8's, simply due to the way to-hit rolls scale, and the difficulty of boosting both defense and accuracy at newbie levels.

True. But I did not have to fight level 7 or 8 mobs. I just had to clear my defeat-10 tasks. I found the proper targets, engaged them, defeated them and moved on.

Did you recover enough inspirations between the battles to make up for what was spent, in the right distribution so that you could beat the next?

No, but I did not need to. There was a Contact right there to sell me more, and I more than earned the influence to buy them. Again, I only had to achieve my objective. I am not arguing that a level 5 character can street grind in the Hollows, only that he can defeat mobs on his own to satisfy mission requirements.

That's part of the crux of the argument with Hollows missions, especially; you can win just about any near-level fight if you blow enough of the right inspirations, but that doesn't mean it's sustainable, or worth the effort to.

It's worth it if it completes your mission. In doors, you'd only have to spend inspirations like that to take out the boss, most likely.

And what if you were a single target build? Most tankers, defenders, controllers?

Tankers, Defenders and Controllers are group-oriented ATs that must expect they will need assistance to achieve their objectives.

A single target build will have a harder time soloing in the Hollows but it can be done. I did it with a Force Field/Radiation Defender -- soloed all of Wincott's missions at level 5, ended at level 6 -- and that was on Test before the devs started nerfing the mobs.

Or if you didn't have invulnerability defense powers? Or...?

Perhaps you were not paying attention, but at that level an Invulnerability Scrapper has neither mitigation nor avoidance against elemental or energy damage. A good half of what those guys threw at me was stuff I just had to suck up. Solution: identify elemental and energy attackers, focus on them first. I took less damage when I did this with a Reflexes Scrapper. A Dark Armor Scrapper could, if he chose to, have both the smash/lethal and element/energy shields and use whichever one best suited the particular foes he was dealing with. Of the Scrapper sets, only Regeneration would be problematic as it has no real defenses until level 28.

On the Tanker side, Fiery Aura would make out the best, I think, with Fire Shield giving Smash/Lethal, Fire and (some) Cold resistance. Invulnerability would have the same problem for them as for Scrappers (Resist Elements is level 6 for them). Ice and Stone are pretty much about Smash/Lethal at that level too, though I think Ice's Chilling Embrace might give it a good edge.

Well no crap, it's a new zone, and one that just about anyone can access. Of course it'll be crowded early on... especially since it isn't obvious that you can skip the Hollows missions, if you don't know about it ahead of time. Or maybe all those people lurking around the mission doors begging for groups was my imagination?

There were no people lurking around begging for groups when I shot Scylia's demos. Everywhere I went there were groups of players, taking on crowds of mobs and beating them, and generally looking like they were having a good time. There was a really spectacular scene at one point with three or four groups of players each fighting one or more groups of mobs on the street in front of the police encampment -- I hadn't seen a battlefield like that since Planetside.

Listening to people on this forum, you'd think the Hollows was some kind of monstrous deathtrap, a one-way street of pain spiraling ever-downward to the debt cap, a place best avoided by all. In reality, players were in there pounding pavement and the bad guys. No one was whining in the global channels about the zone being too hard, enemies being unstoppable, etc. It looked like routine play.

The first is that the prior enemy groups were underpowered... but this doesn't seem to be the case, considering the constant downward tweaks of the Outcasts and Trolls, and Statesman's comments about them.

The earlier enemies are underpowered, and the devs are making a mistake by catering to the whiners on this issue. Given what I saw in the zone I find it hard to believe that datamining supports further weakening of the Outcats and Trolls. (Except for Hurricane, of course, but then every melee AT in the game wants that just gone.)

Does this mean that every one and every build can? No.

Of course not -- but that was never the point.

I said "99% of the player base can't do this".

My dear, ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the player base is not SUPPOSED to be able to do this.

The Hollows is a Hazard Zone. It is NOT solo material. It is expected that players will fight here in groups. Any claims as to the zone's difficulty must be taken in that light, and in that light if it is possible for some builds to solo here, it can't be argued that the zone is too difficult. Are you prepared to argue that while a level 5 Broadsword/Invul (and a level 5 Kat/SR, and a level 5 FF/Rad...) can solo here, two or more characters grouped would be outmatched? Preposterous!

If I could drive like an Indy Racecar Pro then do I have a case for upping the speed limit dramtically? Is it fair for me to say, "Well everyone else should learn it at my skill level". No, that's not fair, nor is it wise.

It would be perfectly fair if we were talking about race tracks -- and we are.

You want a challenge, and after the fix yellows and oranges will provide that for you. While whites will provide it for the majority of players. Like I said before, white = optimal, which is the majority. Yellow/orange = skilled, which is your level.

This cannot be allowed to be the case. It would make groups totally unworkable under current conditions, and it would basically mean the devs would have to balance two or more separate games at once. If we're all playing the same game, we all have to be on the same page as far as difficulty is concerned.

I just took a DM/DA Scrapper to level 11 in 19 hours of gameplay. I had fun up to a certain point.

This morning, I hit level 11. Every contact I have sends me into Steel Canyon for my next missions. So, he's parked there now. Not playing him again until the over-powered villains are fixed. And, yes, before anyone starts flaming me: they ARE over-powered.

Why are they overpowered? At level 11 you have all three DA shields. You can employ whichever countermeasure offers the best defense for the situation at hand. I can't see any reason why a level 11 DM/DA can't fight +0/+1 mobs.

Two WHITE-conning Bricks getting my level 13 Invul Tanker into the RED by repeatedly stunning me and shutting off Temp Invul, only to bash me into a bloody pulp, before I can even get ONE of them to croak, and you don't see a problem?

The only problem I see is that someone didn't buy Unyielding Stance -- a level 8 power for Tankers.

The point is, by that time, a character will have plenty of powers, primary and secondary, to be able to come up with a good strategy for any situation. When you're in the lower levels, you just don't have that many options, and the options you DO have are negated by all the holds and stuns.

You already should have the countermeasure to "all the holds and stuns", but it looks like you don't. Care to elaborate?

On a related note: "lazy" is hardly the word I would be using. "Easy" I can agree with, but not "lazy". After all, EXCLUSIVELY fighting blues and greens would take you DOUBLE the time to get to the next level than if you would take on, say, whites and yellow exclusively. Thus, not lazy, since working hard is the exact opposite of that.

As it happens, lazy people very often end up doing more work than their more industrious fellows.

Okay, I have to keep being an [censored] about this, I can't help it. Did you try it with an Invul Tanker, like I did? Fire/Fire is an über-build (from what I've read on the boards) and has an AoE power.

At the levels we're talking about how "uber" do you think any build could possibly be?

You made a movie of your victorious fight? Whoop-dee-doo! How do I know you just didn't get lucky? You have NO EVIDENCE!

That's a totally unreasonable position. You are basically calling me and Aurora liars.

Do you really think the devs simply read the message board and act on what's said here?

I think what gets said here gets taken into account and has more weight than you want to admit.

Case in point: Phantom Army. This power was never intended to be used as a damage-dealing weapon. It was changed in a manner contrary to that purpose. It has since been changed, twice, in fashions intended to return it to that purpose, and the reason given by Geko was so that the power would better meet player expecations of it. Those changes were not made as a result of datamining; they were, apparently, made as a result of what was said on this forum.

Besides, I'm supposed to be a superhero in this game. How often does Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman have to go to the hospital?

Less often than Aragorn did; does that mean characters in fantasy MMOs should never lose their fights, either?

Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

Kazarak · 09-28-2004 01:14 PM

While I appreciate you taking the considerable time to share those thoughts & replies with us, they are mostly moot. The devs are tuning the Outcasts, removing the +1 bug and making things easier again.

You need to understand that you are in a minority. While I sympathize with your plight, you'll still be capable of finding your challenge in yellows/oranges and when the slider comes, in missions.

For the rest of us, part of CoHs charm is in it's ease. You really feel like a superhero, it's unlike any other MMO in that respect. My character IS super. I love that! Any effort to take that away detracts from that feeling. When the slider is released I'll probably make use of it to up the challenge a bit. I do appreciate a good challenge, despite what you might think. I just think this game has found a nice niche in it's ease, a niche that fits well with it's genre (superheroes).

Selkie · 09-28-2004 01:41 PM

I posted this in another thread, but it fits here....

Well, the Hollows are challenging, even for experienced players on lower level characters, let alone new players to the game, even if they have had prior game experience...

After, you level to 5, you do get sent the Hollow, no choice, and if new to game I can how you would easily choose to follow mission path.. street kill outcasts, trolls, then you get sent to the infamous Eel Mission.. it is more doable solo, if you have the right build or a small group 2 or 3.. and definitely need a controller, to chain hold Eel, debuff him then blast him to death...(after you have pulled and killed all his friends, of course)... I went in with a full group of level 6, few 7's and we were immediately faced with a roaming patrol of.. no less than 2 Red Lead Bricks, 4 Orange Shocker, 3 Orange Bricks and too numerous to count yellow casters.... needless to say, many deaths ensured, even with trying to pull, thin and return....AND. on one entry there was a HUGE hole in the map and the end of one corridor....I eventually completed that mission and it companion (which of course is WAY the hell and gone at the FAR side of the zone) with an expemplared 19 Mind/Emp controller to my level 6 Fire/Rad controller...only way we could get to the second mission was for him to SK me to level 16.. to get there reasonably safely.

Then I thought.. phew, so went back to the policeman and said.. well, all done.. and he gives me a new contact and you know where he is.... WAY on the other side of the Hollows... past the red zone.. near where I had just done the companion Outcast mission.. well, be a while before I go casually chat to him...!!

So, back to KR. to talk the contact I have there.. phew, maybe a nice mission I can solo.. have some fun.. but I chat to him and low and behold he gives me a timed mission.. oo.. I have done this one before I think.. then I realize, OMG, it is in the Hollows now.. so back to the Hollows and you know where this mission is??? Way on the other side of the zone within feet of the other mission and the new contact.. well, the clock is ticking.. and I think well I can chat to the new contact if I make it.. so I carefully try to weave my way over there down the roads on the left wall of the zone.. mob packs draw slowly to screen, so you can be virtually on them.. seemingly suddently appearing in front you.. you have no real travel power, no ability to stealth.. the mobs, have all kinds of hold, stun, disorent powers that you can try to pop purple pills to defend yourself against.. mind you, you only have 8 ins slots to work with.....and limited cash...(well I don't cos I borrowed money from my Defender big sister!!? and they said they upped the drop rate of Disc inspiration.. I did all that and only got one as a drop...

Anyway, after dying and running back from the hospital... I managed to weave my way to the second Hollow's contact, talk to him...oops.. nasties everywhere, thank god there was a high level Defender having a break there.. he slaughtered a few dozen, invised me and then I ran to the timed mission.. I zone in and find mostly groups of 3-4 yellow Outcasts.. all with their usual powersets for the Hollows and I carefully begin to solo the mission.. running a way strategically...always making sure I have a way out.. I get to the third floor have two almost dead.. think I can just make it.. but they kill me...and 10 min left of the timer...one rez inp on me...and the two mobs standing right over me and not moving back to spawn....so, I look in guild, find my friendly 46 Fire Tanker friend on and ask if he wouldn't mind jumping over and leveling the rest of this mission..he arrives in the nick of time, runs to me.. kills the two, I rez.. there are only 3 mobs left.. Mission Complete...and then he SK's me for the run all the way across the zone again...

So, you can figure out solutions and workarounds, but it requires knowledge and experience in the game and contacts that newbies will not have and they may not have the patience or sheer grit to stick at it...nothing like be held and brutally slaughtered multiple times..

I ask you why are the lower level missions set with so many foes, of much higher level, with powers way beyond the Heroes trying to fight them, with virtually no powers to defend themselves..?

and why is a low level mission set so far into a hazard zone?

and why is a level 6 contact so far into a hazard zone?

I can see making this challenging.. but some of these missions that spawn are purely suicide..and bugged!

Just a few observations and questions!

Selkie
Pinnacle

NetherLen · 09-28-2004 02:31 PM

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I just took a DM/DA Scrapper to level 11 in 19 hours of gameplay. I had fun up to a certain point.

This morning, I hit level 11. Every contact I have sends me into Steel Canyon for my next missions. So, he's parked there now. Not playing him again until the over-powered villains are fixed. And, yes, before anyone starts flaming me: they ARE over-powered.

Why are they overpowered? At level 11 you have all three DA shields. You can employ whichever countermeasure offers the best defense for the situation at hand. I can't see any reason why a level 11 DM/DA can't fight +0/+1 mobs.

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Two WHITE-conning Bricks getting my level 13 Invul Tanker into the RED by repeatedly stunning me and shutting off Temp Invul, only to bash me into a bloody pulp, before I can even get ONE of them to croak, and you don't see a problem?

The only problem I see is that someone didn't buy Unyielding Stance -- a level 8 power for Tankers.

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This holds no water. You're basically saying I cannot solo mobs because I chose the WRONG POWERS? That's complete and utter BS! If my characters are now all of a sudden gimped because I skipped one power because I though the next one would come in handy, then there's more wrong with this game than a simple bug.

So, again, it all comes down to the power-gamers and their über-builds.

BTW, I have no problems fighting 0 or +1 mobs with that scrapper. I DO have a problem, however, with groups of 15 whites, yellows and oranges ALL jumping at me at the same time. Can you seriously sit there and say that you SEE NO PROBLEM IN THAT?

And on the Tanker: he has EVERY available Damage Resistance power except against Psionic, and therefore, Outcast should NOT be a problem for him. Still, they are. And I'm certainly not stupid enough to take on 3 yellows at the same time. This happened with white-conning mobs.

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You made a movie of your victorious fight? Whoop-dee-doo! How do I know you just didn't get lucky? You have NO EVIDENCE!

That's a totally unreasonable position. You are basically calling me and Aurora liars.

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Siding with Aurora is not making you win any points with me. Point is: I can make a video showing how Eel hands me my butt on a silver platter, after having used EVERY available strategy to me, and you people would STILL say that I need to use strategy.

It just goes in both directions. Making and showing off a video does NOT prove one damn thing.

Venture · 09-28-2004 03:38 PM

While I appreciate you taking the considerable time to share those thoughts & replies with us, they are mostly moot. The devs are tuning the Outcasts, removing the +1 bug and making things easier again.

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, it ain't over 'till it's over. The changes in question are only being tested now. Game balance in MMOs is always up for grabs in any case. This entire discussion is about live content being adjusted for difficulty.

You need to understand that you are in a minority.

That's not entirely clear, and it wouldn't be relevant even if it was. An argument is correct or incorrect on its merits, not according to how many people accept or reject it.

While I sympathize with your plight, you'll still be capable of finding your challenge in yellows/oranges and when the slider comes, in missions.

That is the game's death warrant in one sentence.

My character IS super. I love that!

That's what blue cons are for.

This holds no water. You're basically saying I cannot solo mobs because I chose the WRONG POWERS? That's complete and utter BS!

Yes, you can't solo mobs because you took the wrong powers, and no, it's not BS. The fact that you have some flexibility in character design does not mean every single power is discretionary or that the devs are somehow obligated to make the game easy enough for any build at all to solo.

If my characters are now all of a sudden gimped because I skipped one power because I though the next one would come in handy, then there's more wrong with this game than a simple bug.

There is nothing wrong with it at all. You should have realised given that status protection was available at level 8 that you would need to take it by then. Heffernan's First Law of Game Design: if you give the players an ability, you must predicate game balance on the assumption that they will use it. Corollary: if the developers give you an ability, you must predicate your strategy on the assumption that it will be necessary.

So, again, it all comes down to the power-gamers and their über-builds.

I knew this was going to be your response, because I knew that properly-built characters wouldn't be having the kinds of trouble you were describing. But it is not about "power gamers and uber builds". It is about not goofing off when building your character. What made you think your character would be functional without state defense?

BTW, I have no problems fighting 0 or +1 mobs with that scrapper. I DO have a problem, however, with groups of 15 whites, yellows and oranges ALL jumping at me at the same time. Can you seriously sit there and say that you SEE NO PROBLEM IN THAT?

No, I don't see a problem with you losing when you're outnumbered and outgunned.

And on the Tanker: he has EVERY available Damage Resistance power except against Psionic, and therefore, Outcast should NOT be a problem for him.

That does not follow for a variety of reasons, chief among them the slotting requirements of the various resistance powers.

Point is: I can make a video showing how Eel hands me my butt on a silver platter, after having used EVERY available strategy to me, and you people would STILL say that I need to use strategy.

From the preceeding, it seems you lost that fight before it began thanks to poor choices in character construction. Perhaps you'd share the entire build with us.

It just goes in both directions. Making and showing off a video does NOT prove one damn thing.

Then, you are saying that I have not proven that I can solo groups of mobs in the Hollows, which is to say, I am lying. That's not very nice. I think what it really shows is that you are just unwilling to accept that your faults lie not in your stars, but in yourself. It's not that the Hollows is too difficult. You just don't have the skills to cope with it.

Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

stageIII · 09-28-2004 07:52 PM

Kazarak,

Your assertion those of us who enjoy the early game 'difficulty' are in the minority is laughable. This board represents an insignificant number of players in CoH and this thread represents an insignificant number of those on this board. Meaningful conclusion CANNOT be drawn from such sample sizes.

We all realize how passionate you are about this. Thank you for aiding in the return of CoH to the 'all-zones-boring' mode you seem to love so much.

Yes, I can get a character to 12 in a couple of days play which is where you say the challenge should just start to ramp up. But, why should have I have to be bored every SINGLE TIME I DO SO?!?

Kazarak · 09-28-2004 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kazarak,

Your assertion those of us who enjoy the early game 'difficulty' are in the minority is laughable. This board represents an insignificant number of players in CoH and this thread represents an insignificant number of those on this board. Meaningful conclusion CANNOT be drawn from such sample sizes.

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Wrong. The devs have said many times that according to the numbers these boards represent less than 1% of the player base. I am certain they drawing their conclusions about the difficulty of the Hollows from in game metrics.

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We all realize how passionate you are about this. Thank you for aiding in the return of CoH to the 'all-zones-boring' mode you seem to love so much.

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If the game is boring to you then why are you playing? At any rate, your sarcasm is being misdirected, direct it at 99% of the players.

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Yes, I can get a character to 12 in a couple of days play which is where you say the challenge should just start to ramp up. But, why should have I have to be bored every SINGLE TIME I DO SO?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

You put that boredom on yourself. You want excitement, take yellows. You want missions full of enemies, take on a partner just for bumping the difficulty.

Kazarak · 09-28-2004 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While I appreciate you taking the considerable time to share those thoughts & replies with us, they are mostly moot. The devs are tuning the Outcasts, removing the +1 bug and making things easier again.

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, it ain't over 'till it's over. The changes in question are only being tested now. Game balance in MMOs is always up for grabs in any case. This entire discussion is about live content being adjusted for difficulty.

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I think you have slim to no chance but good luck anyway.

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You need to understand that you are in a minority.

That's not entirely clear, and it wouldn't be relevant even if it was. An argument is correct or incorrect on its merits, not according to how many people accept or reject it.

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As I said before, 99% of the player base are not on the boards.

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While I sympathize with your plight, you'll still be capable of finding your challenge in yellows/oranges and when the slider comes, in missions.

That is the game's death warrant in one sentence.

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Why? It's the same mobs just harder. You've been spoon fed the white = 50/50 chance to live to much in MMOs. If an MMO wants to change that to yellow or orange or even puke green then so what? It's the same thing just different colors.

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My character IS super. I love that!

That's what blue cons are for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it's just a color or more precisely a name. We may as well be talking about you wanting to take puke greens and insisting I should take happy pink.

AmericanThane · 09-28-2004 08:25 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Kazarak,

You put that boredom on yourself. You want excitement, take yellows. You want missions full of enemies, take on a partner just for bumping the difficulty.

[/ QUOTE ]

That shouldn't be the way, I have to sit there and bother someone with there gaming to team up everytime I finish a mission just so I can bump my difficulty up. Thats like me telling you if the mission is to hard you should outlevel your contact and then go back to it or fight blues. Neither of those choices are fair to either player. But when the slider comes we can at least make a choice of what we want.

stageIII · 09-28-2004 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Wrong. The devs have said many times that according to the numbers these boards represent less than 1% of the player base. I am certain they drawing their conclusions about the difficulty of the Hollows from in game metrics.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am certain the devs are swayed more strongly by passionate input on this forum than by in game metrics I also have no way of knowing that. Facts by assertion; ain't it wunnerful?

[ QUOTE ]

If the game is boring to you then why are you playing? At any rate, your sarcasm is being misdirected, direct it at 99% of the players.

[/ QUOTE ]

CoH is not boring to me for my main. It was simply nice that it was possible with content 2 to do alts with tactical team challenges available for those wishing it instead of just grinding throught the same monotony from 1-15. I like to actually experience those levels.

To a person everyone in both SGs I run with loves The Hollows as currently constituted despite the high death rate. We must all be in that 1% who like it? I will just have to trust another of your assertions that 99% of players hate it, though how you personally came to know how that many people feel about it is beyond my simple reasoning.

[ QUOTE ]

You put that boredom on yourself. You want excitement, take yellows. You want missions full of enemies, take on a partner just for bumping the difficulty.

[/ QUOTE ]

If only it were as simple as you choose to paint it and perhaps even perceive it. Alas, it is not. It is the abilities of these lower level mobs which makes them the tactical challenge they are. Why turn them into Hellions/Skulls? We already have zones filled with that easy XP for those who prefer it.

Granted getting around in Steel and Skyway is now more treacherous. Still, those with a modicum of skill should have no problem avoiding unwanted street enconters.

Venture · 09-29-2004 12:13 AM

Granted getting around in Steel and Skyway is now more treacherous. Still, those with a modicum of skill should have no problem avoiding unwanted street enconters.

It's late, don't have time to parse everything, but I wanted to hit this point.

I just finished taking a Claws/Dark Armor character through Wincott's missions, starting at level 5, ending at level 6 (yes, she had to level to deal with a +1 Electric Eel). During this I noticed I'd made a mistake with her costume. So, after polishing off Bedrock and then going back out into the Hollows for a Jewel of Hera door (that spawned in the east corner....), I ran her through Steel Canyon so I could fix it at Icon. I got sniped at twice for small amounts of damage, but made it to Icon and back with no defeats.

Also, this was on Virtue, and again, the Hollows was full of people, groups running around, defeating mobs, enjoying themselves. Where is this unconquerable land of doom everyone keeps whining about?

Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

AmericanThane · 09-29-2004 05:38 AM

Agreed me and a freind easily duoed hollows at level5 and 6.
I was a level 5 ice/electric blaster and she was level 6 fire/rad controller man it was easy to easy in fact. And this is without the update coming from the test server changes to outcast and trolls. All we did was take on even and plus one mobs and we left hollows pretty quickly because it was too packed they have twice the amount of people there then perez.

Jaxion · 09-29-2004 05:52 AM

I like the new powers of the trolls and outcast, but i'd like for em not to be soo devestating with damage. As i've posted before on this matter, three technology blasters whos used to hunting together shouldn't be having as huge of a problem as we have been getting.. The whole troll gards throwing tons of rocks for 100 damage a hit really takes us down in a hurry...

Kazarak · 09-29-2004 06:03 AM

This thread has been going on and on for far too long. It's at the point where it's like a tennis match, I hit the ball to my opponent, who returns it to me, then I return it to him...and on and on...

Let me just say this, lets review the 2 contrasting views against their extremes.

Pro-Challenge player takes on a fight so easy it's silly:
Most the time he won't think twice about it. Maybe he'll think "too easy", or "boring..." but he'll shrug it off and move on to the next fight. I understand that lots and lots of these "boring" matches might solicit a more harsh reaction, however lets just keep it on the single fight for now...

Anti-Challenge player takes on a fight so hard they fail:
The player is frustrated and angered.

Which reaction is more severe? If you're a game designer, which of these 2 are good to keep in mind when designing a level/challenge?

Take each of those examples and stretch them out to the long term. The pro-challenge player eventually gets weary of the game and moves on. The anti-challenge gets frustrated and angered and moves on MUCH sooner.

Now you guys can say, "Just take blues and greens" until the end of time. I can retort with, "Just take yellows/oranges" until the end of time...

Lets compare those 2.

My plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get more xp

Your plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get less xp

stageIII · 09-29-2004 07:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now you guys can say, "Just take blues and greens" until the end of time. I can retort with, "Just take yellows/oranges" until the end of time...

Lets compare those 2.

My plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get more xp

Your plan = Same result, you get challenged, the rest get easy and we both get less xp

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? We only fight yellow to an occasional red in The Hollows as well as Steel with the new 'unbeatable' Outcasts and Trolls. How can that be less XP? Plus, believe it or not, not all of us are primarily max-XP/hour driven. Yes, it is nice to level, but I like to experience this now-more-nicely-fleshed-out game at each of those earlier levels.

I fear you have mis-apprehended the core issue. This is NOT a question taking greens or reds. This is a question of having at least 1 zone where a more organized/tactical style of team play can be challenged in the earlier levels by reds rather than mowing through them like in Perez or the pre-content 2 Steel.

I would guess Cryptic did not and does not have the resource to populate The Hollows with all new mob types so they beefed up Outcasts and Trolls. As a result Steel got a LOT more challenging, maybe even undoable, for street soloists. Care must also be used travelling there, but it is by no means the horror 'some' claim it to be. The soloists still have Perez and door missions with a hopefully-soon-implemented difficulty slider. (Something a lot of us suggested in beta BTW.)

It is interesting to observe the 2nd to last stage of neo-liberal truth dissemination. In phase 1, through keen insight not available to the unwashed masses, TRUTH is grasped by the anointed. (In this case TRUTH is t,at mobs with powers should only start to appear anywhere at all beginning at 12th level.) The anointed one now explains truth to the peasants. When some of the peasants continue to hold a different point of view the anointed one nobly and gently re-explains to them TRUTH. When some peasants even then persist to wallow in ignorance the anointed one now somewhat less nobly and less gently re-explains TRUTH. When it finally becomes obvious these dullards are incapable of understanding TRUTH the anointed one throws up his hands in disgust and states succinctly a scathing non-sequitur. <--- where we are now

In the final phase the anointed one realizes it will be necessary to do 'what's best' for us morons whether we realize it or not. "We'll thank him later." This will likely take the form, and probably already has taken the form, of many PMs and /petitions to the devs to 'fix' the 'problem' in CoH.

"EVERYBODY hates this. Please fix it ASAP."

Rocinante awaits noble anointed one. Let this dullard no more delay your tipping.

Kazarak · 09-29-2004 07:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We only fight yellow to an occasional red in The Hollows as well as Steel with the new 'unbeatable' Outcasts and Trolls. How can that be less XP? Plus, believe it or not, not all of us are primarily max-XP/hour driven. Yes, it is nice to level, but I like to experience this now-more-nicely-fleshed-out game at each of those earlier levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say less xp I said more xp

[ QUOTE ]

I fear you have mis-apprehended the core issue. This is NOT a question taking greens or reds. This is a question of having at least 1 zone where a more organized/tactical style of team play can be challenged in the earlier levels by reds rather than mowing through them like in Perez or the pre-content 2 Steel.

I would guess Cryptic did not and does not have the resource to populate The Hollows with all new mob types so they beefed up Outcasts and Trolls. As a result Steel got a LOT more challenging, maybe even undoable, for street soloists. Care must also be used travelling there, but it is by no means the horror 'some' claim it to be. The soloists still have Perez and door missions with a hopefully-soon-implemented difficulty slider. (Something a lot of us suggested in beta BTW.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If the enemies of the Hollows weren't populated in SC and Skyway I wouldn't have any problem with a zone that's harder than the others. My reply to everyone on this thread would be "just don't go there (Hollows)".

As for the "mis-apprehended the core issue" part...Huh?

[ QUOTE ]

It is interesting to observe the 2nd to last stage of neo-liberal truth dissemination. In phase 1, through keen insight not available to the unwashed masses, TRUTH is grasped by the anointed. (In this case TRUTH is t,at mobs with powers should only start to appear anywhere at all beginning at 12th level.) The anointed one now explains truth to the peasants. When some of the peasants continue to hold a different point of view the anointed one nobly and gently re-explains to them TRUTH. When some peasants even then persist to wallow in ignorance the anointed one now somewhat less nobly and less gently re-explains TRUTH. When it finally becomes obvious these dullards are incapable of understanding TRUTH the anointed one throws up his hands in disgust and states succinctly a scathing non-sequitur. <--- where we are now

In the final phase the anointed one realizes it will be necessary to do 'what's best' for us morons whether we realize it or not. "We'll thank him later." This will likely take the form, and probably already has taken the form, of many PMs and /petitions to the devs to 'fix' the 'problem' in CoH.

"EVERYBODY hates this. Please fix it ASAP."

Rocinante awaits noble anointed one. Let this dullard no more delay your tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off my initial reaction to this is:

Second, neo liberalism? What you described can be potentially true of anyone whether they be moderates, liberals, conservatives, anarchists, and whatever else. Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.

stageIII · 09-29-2004 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again we are subjected to facts by assertion. Political philosophy permeates our social interactions, of which this forum is one. That you do not recognize such does not change it. You state politics have no place here and I state they cannot help but have a place here. Of course, you have TRUTH and I am simply too stupid to see it.

In any case, we do seem to be at the heart of the matter. The sub-set of players seeking challenging and tactical team-oriented street play in the earlier levels now has The Hollows. The changes to Trolls and Outcasts to provide that has made challenging soloist street play in Steel and Skyway nearly impossible for the subset of players who enjoy that in the earlier levels. Is toning down Trolls/Outcasts even furth the only possible means of catering to the desires of the latter group? (Especially since that approach is highly undesirable to the former group.)

I submit other approaches could be employed to satisfy both subsets of players. In Steel change a number of 'outcast spawn points' to 5th spawn points. They have always been better for max-XP/hour solo types, anyway. In Skyway do the same with Lost. Having a fair number of lower level Lost closer to the T instead of all Trolls would accomplish the same thing.

Finally, this seems like it would be a relatively easy thing for the devs as compared to 'jiggering' with enemy powersets.

Kazarak · 09-29-2004 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again we are subjected to facts by assertion. Political philosophy permeates our social interactions, of which this forum is one. That you do not recognize such does not change it. You state politics have no place here and I state they cannot help but have a place here. Of course, you have TRUTH and I am simply too stupid to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my...Try posting political statements on a random sampling of threads, and then come back and report the reactions you get....NOT a good idea....

GadgetDon · 09-29-2004 12:58 PM

There's one change I strongly request regarding the Hollows. Have our first second tier contact offer the first contact in the Hollows as a contact.

Why?

I was starting a new alt, a tanker, who I didn't think would have a chance in the Hollows. I was given my contact in Kings Row, went to Kings Row, found out that my contact was near the north wall. So, to get my next mission to complete, I had to:

Go all the way from the tram to north wall of Kings Row, talk to contact.

Go all the way back from the north wall of Kings Row to tram, take tram to Atlas Park.

Go halfway across Atlas Park to get to the entrance of Hollows.

Enter Hollows, talk to contact, leave hollows.

Go halfway across Atlas Park from entrance of the Hollows to the Tram.

Take Tram from Atlas Park to Kings Row, go from tram to north wall to finally get my mission.

(That mission was a timed mission in Atlas Park.)

My alt will be adventuring in the Hollows in a level or two. But because seeing that contact was a mission instead of being given as a contact (and the only mission available, I couldn't take a mission from another contact because I didn't have any), I spent about 10 minutes or so just running around. Not fun.

My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout

Mighty · 10-01-2004 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Please don't turn this thread into politics. It has no place here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again we are subjected to facts by assertion. Political philosophy permeates our social interactions, of which this forum is one. That you do not recognize such does not change it. You state politics have no place here and I state they cannot help but have a place here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Love making is a social interaction. By your own logic you must be a snooze-and-a-half in the sack.

StageIII pillow talk goes something like this: Hey, baby, you like that? Good. How about nationalized healthcare... yeah...

Keep your opinions of liberals out of the forums. Politics does not permeate all forms of social interaction and if it does yours then you are obsessed. What is really distressing is that you accuse Kaz of following the TRUTH process you yourself have inflicted on the forum with your absolute garbage about what permeates this and the implied definition of neoliberalism.

The only reason I'm posting this is because I know Kaz won't. She'll try to stay on topic while you flail about throwing fecal-stenched accusations about things that do not address whether or not the Hollows is too tough.

Sebastius_Black · 10-01-2004 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Again we are subjected to facts by assertion. Political philosophy permeates our social interactions, of which this forum is one. That you do not recognize such does not change it. You state politics have no place here and I state they cannot help but have a place here.

[/ QUOTE ]

riigggghhhtt....I know when I think about the word game, neo-whatsits jump right up to the front of my mind.

And now for something completely different...

Has anyone else tried a Broadsword/Regen build in the eel mission? Solo?

All these folk that love the new 'difficulty', I'd just like to say there is a ton of difference between say a Dark Melee scrapper, Dark armor, etc. Other builds that have acutal resistances, protections and debuffs at that level are a lot different than the slower to develop characters.

As a BS/Regen, I got zippo. No status protects and no +resistances and no +defense. It's just me and a very Red very Pissed off Electric Eel and there simply isn't any other possible outcome but the BS/Regen losing.

I've been hesitant to say the word 'Impossible' just because I was afraid I may be mistaken and just doing something completely wrong. But after 15 failed attempts, I'm positive the BS/Regen scrapper, soloing the eel mission is just not a possibility when eel is red, and it's probably not going to happen when he's orange either.

Popping 2 luck, 2 accuracy, 2 damage and a status resist inspiration was the best I did against him, and I still failed to get him below half. Hurricane + Red con mob is just dang hard to overcome along with the hugely punishing melee move he does, that move literally takes half my life if it lands.

That kind of difficulty, I don't want. So, to all the difficulty hounds out there, have a go at the BS/Regen if you like difficult. You'll be in hog heaven taking on all those Bricks/Shockers and a Red con Eel. Maybe that will give you a clear picture of the kind of difficulty some builds face with these changes.

I've played some other builds against eel and not had nearly as much of a problem. But there are several builds that it's just way too hard for, even for those of us who like challenges.

What's my point? *shrug* just wanted to talk about politics I guess.

Synestrie · 10-06-2004 10:21 PM

Jeez after reading all the way from my last post I hope I can remember all I wanted to post, lol.

A quick comment about EQ.. it was easy the first 30 levels (especially after the 'alt toon' revamp for speedy leveling to 20th).. if you had a hard time of it then you feel my pain in the hollows. With a ranger, I could solo yellows.. yes I wrote yellows.. with an elven ranger at level 30. I was soloing yellows with my ranger at level 50 to 52 as well but I'll leave that arguement alone for the EQ challenged. That's a scrapper for the closest comparison in CoH. Yes, I too was taken out by a yellow griffawn in a zone made for twice my level once. I remember peeking into Mistmoore when I was level 10 and watched some higher levels taking out werewolves, asked about the level of the mobs and left to return 10 levels later. My ranger was never 'uber' either. Most of my friends were amazed at my successes. That was all tactics.

Now for CoH. I have no problem with the streetsweeping aspect of The Hollows as yet since I haven't tried it beyond the first two mission you get there.

I'll give you a couple of experiences I've had in the missions. First experience I was playing my 7th level Ice/Ice Blaster. I was teamed with a tanker though I'm not sure what his build was. He ran in and I ran around the other side of the Eel to get a clear shot. The Eel threw the tanker into diorient while I popped an accuracey and two damage insp's. With just the first two Ice blaster powers I took that red guy out before he could kill either of us.. the tanker was disoriented for the whole fight. Here is the discrepancy... the Eel just stood there watching the tanker for most of the fight (which wasn't long anyway) and only turned on me as my last shot hit him.. the shot that killed, errr.. arrested him. Luck I guess, maybe even a bug.

Next we have my Fire/Storm controller. With a group of six we stormed in and out of all the Outcasts missions while she was level 6. First I hit all shockers and bricks with Choke to make sure they couldn't put my guys in stasis or heal, then I used my AE debuff on them (can't remember what it's called). That worked with flying colors. But the worst thing about a Fire/Storm controller is they do so little damage, soloing is almost impossible (I wrote 'almost' before you argue with me), try it and you'll see. Luck since the normal thugs were yellow most of the time with lt's orange to red and the Eel and Bedrock purple. My choke hardly ever missed. Luck? Sounds like it.

Last fight with the Eel was with my Claws/SR Scrapper. I went through maybe three full trays of insp's till I ran out of influence. I was teamed with a blaster. The Eel would take us out fast. If the Eel landed two hits of the thunderpunch or whatever it was called I'd be leaving the hospital and did a most of the five times I died trying to defeat him. I did finally defeat him in a different group that had two defenders and another scrapper. The wierd part was the other scrapper took insp's but was stunned the whole fight. I had no insp's and resisted all stuns and the thunder hit always missed until the Eel was dead. Luck is what did it.. not tactics.

Those are the facts of what happened. My scrapper a few levels later teamed with another scrapper to complete Positron's Task Force (after the four other group members skated on us after the first mission). That was tactics.

Someone a bit back brought up we should know door missions in a hazard zone are gonna have the hazard difficulty. The only difference with a mission in Atlas Park and a mission in Perez Park is what you have to go through to get to the mission and sometimes your contact doesn't tell you where the mission door will be until you take it. I do not agree that door missions should be in hazard zones but if they are, they shouldn't be in red areas of hazard zones. Basically, I'm saying Hazard Zone door missions are no different than any other door mission. Moot.

Yes, I'm known for being laquacious.

My arguement here is not for streetsweeping at all as quotes from my post were diverted to. My arguement was that the bosses and lt.'s in the Wincott missions have a difficulty beyond the level they are given at. I personally like the +1 'bug', even at level 6 but I don't like the unbeatable bosses and the two to four lt.'s per group thug teams in the missions.

From reading this whole thread most of the arguements not to 'dumb' down the new content seem to focus on the streetsweeping while the 'whiners' who want it easier seem to be arguing about the door missions. There are a few who stay on the path of either door missions or streetsweeping. When you make your arguement, please state which you are writing about and try not to use one to argue against the other.. they are two different games. I think I confused myself with that one.. hope you understand what I mean.

I stick by my earlier post and there was even a Training Room tester here that more or less outlined what the changes look like and that seems to sort of make everyone happy.. keeping the Outcasts unique while making them 'easier'. I'm sure there will be complaints still since there's already a poster who thinks everyone should be the same exact skill level he/she is. Face it, democracy is here to stay... good or bad, majority rules.

Rhynalae · 03-29-2005 07:11 AM

The magmites are wicked.

I had one great solo story, when I was rather naive. Only a level 10 tank, and figured I'd take direct line to my contact on the far side of the Hollows, where I had never been before (the short troll guy on the bridge).

That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done. I didn't have a travel power, and once I got down into the blasted lands, I couldn't get out. And then I realized I was WAY outclassed by any mobs down there, and they were coming after me.

I had full sprint on, running like heck, triggering reds and purples everywhere I went, magmites coming out of the ground and throwing rocks and shooting lava blasts from seemingly miles away, and being chased by hordes of peeved trolls. Not knowing how to get out of the area (due to all the cliffs) and not knowing where the mobs would be at any moment, I don't even know how I lived through that... I was running most of the time with my bar in the red, popping health inspirations as I went.

Somehow I made it to the bridge... then realized that I could have just sauntered the longer (but safer) way through town.

Arrggg.

Later, I found I couldn't solo the "magmite hunt" mission until I was level 15... and then not with much room to spare, unless I found some blues to fight. I hate those things.

Ferrium · 03-29-2005 07:21 AM

I don't think the Hollows is any more dangerous than Perez Park.

I find it annoying to have missions that force me to run through really dangerous sections where everything is purple. But that is true of any area. IMO, I would think it would turn off some players, but I have no evidence to back up my opinion.

But I think that since the Igneous are merely smoking lumps on the ground, it's way too easy to wander through them and get surprised. This danger is unique to the Hollows.

It's possible to get stuck in some of the low areas of the Hollows and be unable to get out because groups of red and purple foes block you in. But similar things happen in Perez Park.

Otherwise, the area is dangerous. It's supposed to be. I think it could be frustrating for new players, but I don't know whether that's true or not. It's definitely annoying to get around in without a travel power, but less so than the woods of Perez Park.

I really don't think anything needs fixing. I don't like going there because the Hollows isn't to my taste, but that's just personal preference.

Ferrium - Inv/SS Tanker
Hyperforce - SS/Regen Brute
Member of V for Vengance (Exalted)

Rhynalae · 03-29-2005 08:48 AM

Having played both PP and the Hollows, aside from the difficult landscape in Hollows, I'd agree. Once you get a travel power, things get a lot easier.

I remember feeling pretty intimidated starting out in the Hollows due to the large mobs that were higher-level than me, and I spent a lot of time sneaking around, picking my battles, and running like mad when the battles were too rough.

Now that I own the upper areas, those spots are almost like a nuisance on my way to the harder areas.

So there's a wide range of challenge there, which is a good thing. I don't see a problem with it, if you're smart, or go out with teams.