Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?
By
1stLancer,
Posted on: 2004-09-23 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Kazarak,
No disrespect intended, but what the <bleep> are you talking about?!? The Hollows is a HAZARD ZONE and the devs ALREADY toned it down. It is the best zone in the game for those of us who have been playing since beta to run our alts. The one contact who needed to be moved has been moved. There ABSOLUTELY needed to be a challenging low-level zone for those coming around again while the newbs get everything else. If you have a better way for the first 20 levels of an alt. to be other than insanely boring then we are listening...
Statesman and other devs reading this, please DO NOT nerf this zone any further! The changes to date to make it less of a suicide zone even for old hands have been good, but it is now just perfect.
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Kazarak,
No disrespect intended, but what the <bleep> are you talking about?!? The Hollows is a HAZARD ZONE and the devs ALREADY toned it down. It is the best zone in the game for those of us who have been playing since beta to run our alts. The one contact who needed to be moved has been moved. There ABSOLUTELY needed to be a challenging low-level zone for those coming around again while the newbs get everything else. If you have a better way for the first 20 levels of an alt. to be other than insanely boring then we are listening...
Statesman and other devs reading this, please DO NOT nerf this zone any further! The changes to date to make it less of a suicide zone even for old hands have been good, but it is now just perfect.
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What am I talking about? Did you read my posts?
Why do you need a challenge between levels 5 and 12? IF you're a veteran you can level past that in a few hours.
I'm advocating that the challenge BEGIN at 12 and increase until the 20s or 30s, and then stay at a challenging level. I'm also advocating that the low levels remain easy for new players. It's easy for us to level past them and not loook back, but you don't want a new player to get bottlenecked, intimidated and/or frustrated.
If they changed the Hollows to a level 12 to 20 Hazard zone then I'd be fine with the Outcasts remaining the way they are now. But since it starts at level 5 I think it needs to be toned down.
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but your general blanket statement of good-balanced groups not dying - i assume you've never done the outcast door missions. they're ludicrous.
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Yes I have. I've done them solo and I've done them in several groups as several different archetypes. I know what I'm talking about. This morning, I will be solo'ing the Electric Eel mission with my level 10 tanker and prove nimrod wrong. If you can work together and have a good balance of archetypes with people that know how to play their damn archetype, then you can succeed.
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POINT 1: People, by arguing against the change you're arguing to get less XP. Let me make this clear....
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False. I am killing faster and leveling faster now, than I was pre-issue #2.
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YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?
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The less - skilled players don't deserve that xp. *shrugs* They're not earning it. They're mashing buttons with no regard to tactics and accrueing xp. That's wrong. I stopped playing for four weeks before Issue #2 released because I was so damn bored with the game.
Now you and the legion of whining crybabies want to turn it back into that boring game. People will quit a boring game long before they quit a challenging game. Right now, I'm loving Issue #2. It's brought fun back to the game. I've beaten the Eel mission several times with non-uber FoTM builds and people still [censored] and whine about it. Those people just need to learn to play the game better. They don't even have to spend that much effort learning as there are plenty of posts on these forums that explain in detail how to play the game better.
It's that simple. Leave the difficulty as it is. The real gamers will continue playing and enjoy it and the pansy cowards will go back to playing the Sims Online or something where they belong.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I really hope you don't do this! I *loved* playing in the hollows against villains with powers. It made me feel like I was playing a hero.
People who want skulls and hellions can fight skulls and hellions. People who want to feel like heroes can fight outcasts and trolls.
I'd say leave the trolls alone, they're fine. Hit harder, tougher skin, cool. (They could learn something about safety with explosives, but that's another matter)
Outcast minions...the only one I really think needs changing is the scorcher. He uses the attack that the hellion boss uses! How about giving him the flaming sword?
Thanks for moving Flux and Jules. Without travel powers, they were seriously annoying to get to.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
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Now you and the legion of whining crybabies want to turn it back into that boring game. People will quit a boring game long before they quit a challenging game. Right now, I'm loving Issue #2. It's brought fun back to the game. I've beaten the Eel mission several times with non-uber FoTM builds and people still [censored] and whine about it. Those people just need to learn to play the game better. They don't even have to spend that much effort learning as there are plenty of posts on these forums that explain in detail how to play the game better.
It's that simple. Leave the difficulty as it is. The real gamers will continue playing and enjoy it and the pansy cowards will go back to playing the Sims Online or something where they belong.
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You make me so tempted to resort to your level and retort with personal attacks, however I will refrain.
If advocating that the game get harder at 12 and rev up to a challenging level in the 20s makes me a Sims playing, whining cry baby then I think something is seriously wrong.
How long does it take you to level from 5 to 12? I love a challenge but it doesn't belong at level 5. It belongs at level 12 and up. Now get your facts straight and for Gods sake, drop the personal attacks from your arguement!
The Hollows are great! I love having a challenge; if you don't want as much of a challenge you can easily go to another zone and play there. The only thing wrong with The Hollows is that some of the bosses are stupid hard (Electric Eel it one tough [censored]); the other guys are fine imo. Sure they're tough, but they come literally with the territory. Anyway, once the +1 level mission bug has been fixed all the enemies in-mission will be a little easier it'll be fine and dandy. But the Outcasts don't need nerfing as an enemy type.
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Why do you need a challenge between levels 5 and 12? IF you're a veteran you can level past that in a few hours.
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Because it's FUN. In some ways I prefer the early game because your character is much more limited than it is when later in the game. I don't want to blast through the early game as fast as possible, I want to lay the smack down and pull myself through some tough fights. The Hollows are great for that, I've had more white knuckle moments in the Hollows recently than I have at Level 26.
I was running around last night with my 16 defender. The Red zones on the map would be a great place for a good 13-15 group to go and trash some CoTs. I wonder if there's a monster somewhere in the zone, since it's a hazard. Anywho, the entire southeastern quadrant of the map was devoid of other heroes last night, as far as I could tell. No KS-ing. 
I really like the Hollows thus far.
This isn't about your challenge, you can still get a challenge by taking higher conned enemies AND you'll get more xp to boot.
New players are going to find the Hollows frustrating, and intimidating beyond belief. Since they're new they're not going to be familiar with where it's safe to hunt, or how it's safe to hunt. All they'll know is that their contact sent them there and this is what they have to do. They wont know that they can ignore the contact or do other things because nothinig in the game tells them that.
I understand why people want the Outcasts to stay the same. All I'm saying is start the challenge at level 12. Any level earlier than that adds a few hours of fun for the veterans and nothing more. Now if the Outcasts had these powers post level 12 then you can enjoy the challenge for a much longer time.
Do you really want more challenge in less time or more challenge in more time? People are continually attacking/challenging my position without fully understanding or thinking about what I'm advocating. I WANT the challenge. I want it where it belongs, post 12 where I'm going to spend more time enjoying it and where it more appropriatly belongs.
And I think the challenge belongs in the entire game at all levels once you leave the Tutorial. Otherwise you'll have whiners coming to the forums griping and moanining and complaining that the game past level 12 is too hard. Wah wah wah. It doesn't matter what Cryptic does, someone will btich about about the game being too hard. So far I really haven't seen anyone complain about the Hollows being too easy... so methinks the Hollows is balanced perfectly, as is, for a Hazard zone.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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It's too bad. I don't know about the Trolls (haven't had to mingle with them lately) but the Outcasts are really cool. I much prefer the feel they have now with all of the different flavors of nature and they are a little more challenging but not necessarily tough. Anyway my 2 insp
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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Yeah, wouldn't want them to be interesting or anything. :-P
I think alot of people are just missing the point in some of this. This game is about all styles of play, grouping, solo, task forces...there is a lot of variety in the way people want to play and this game has been great about supporting that variety.
Some people run around with a hand picked group and kick all kinds of [censored] regardless of the foes they face. I for one run in such a group (Nuclear Reactions on Guardian 
.
Changing the difficulty of the mobs has meant really very little for us, our tactics haven't changed the mobs just do some really cool effects now and sometimes annoying (caltrops) things. However, when I duo with a friend or play with just three in the group the increase in mission difficulty has made a very large and noticable difference.
The biggest change is that not having a balanced group is a larger impact. Me and my friends can play any old character we want to and group together, but the concequence of that could be long pauses inbetween fights as we wait for hitpoints to come back. That kind of thing just isn't very fun and I would prefer not to sacrifice the fun of grouping whatever characters we each like to play so we can balance it out. This is on just normal missions, not task forces, street hunting or danger zones. Just your normal missions. (Whenever that slider goes live though, that will fix all these problems)
Doing Task forces or doing Danger Zone missions is a bit different. I don't mind having to balance for those zones or suffering the downtime associated with NOT balancing out the group. But regular missions should be doable by small groups of any type of hero combination in my opinion.
And lastly, soloing. I don't know if it's because of the +1 issue or not, but soloing has taken a major downturn in missions for me. My little level 6 Fire/Energy tanker that I just made simply can not solo the end scorcher bosses without running to a vendor and loading up on heal/luck inspirations.
Whether you are for the increased levels, or against it, changing it so that soloing isn't viable should not be done. Right now you can still solo missions if you want, but for a lot of classes you are going to have to blow your influence on inspirations and do a lot of running away. Something my tanker finds slightly offensive, but really has no other choice. It's going to stink if I have to six slot Rest with recharge reductions so I can solo with an acceptable amount of downtime 
I know you cannot make everyone happy but sense the stuns were taken out I have found the game to be about exactly where I want it. I enjoy the new outcasts and having them be different from the hellions/skulls is a lot of fun.
I need to start another low level character to be able to enjoy the hollows. It sounds like it's a blast in there! You guys should be happy that there is another place for lower levels to go. Why, back in MY day.... 
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And I think the challenge belongs in the entire game at all levels once you leave the Tutorial. Otherwise you'll have whiners coming to the forums griping and moanining and complaining that the game past level 12 is too hard. Wah wah wah. It doesn't matter what Cryptic does, someone will btich about about the game being too hard. So far I really haven't seen anyone complain about the Hollows being too easy... so methinks the Hollows is balanced perfectly, as is, for a Hazard zone.
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I count my blessings that you are not a game designer. How many games do you know where the 1st level is as hard as the last? Games start out easy and work in the challenge gradually for a reason. It's called hooking the player. Just like most movies don't show you the climactic final act in the first 5 minutes (with a few exceptions).
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Whether you are for the increased levels, or against it, changing it so that soloing isn't viable should not be done. Right now you can still solo missions if you want, but for a lot of classes you are going to have to blow your influence on inspirations and do a lot of running away. Something my tanker finds slightly offensive, but really has no other choice.
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See, all I'm saying is that it is not because it is too hard that the feel and diversity of a group like the Outcasts should be sacrificed. You wan't to tone them down ... fine but don't bring them back to the 1 shocker, 3 thugs (with nothing special) look. These fire/ice/earth/lightning minions are really nice.
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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Outcast minions...the only one I really think needs changing is the scorcher. He uses the attack that the hellion boss uses!
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....but doesn't do much damage with it, whereas the Damned will mess your day up very quickly with it.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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The only thing really wrong is the stuns/sleeps. You should make them an extraordinarily rare occurance.
Or better yet, set a stun "immunity" period where you cannot be hit by a stun for 30 seconds after one wears off on you. That would eliminate the chain stunning minions and lieutenants that STILL make door missions a solo and duo nightmare.
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I need to start another low level character to be able to enjoy the hollows. It sounds like it's a blast in there! You guys should be happy that there is another place for lower levels to go. Why, back in MY day....
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I would suggest you could exemplar down, but it makes all the mobs run away from you as if you were your actual level.
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I count my blessings that you are not a game designer. How many games do you know where the 1st level is as hard as the last? Games start out easy and work in the challenge gradually for a reason. It's called hooking the player. Just like most movies don't show you the climactic final act in the first 5 minutes (with a few exceptions).
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Yeah whatever. What keeps a person hooked is gameplay and the consistency of that gameplay. If a game is easy for the first ten levels, they're likely going to think it's going to be easy for the next umpteen levels... and pre-issue #2, it was that way. The game was super boring.
Now the devs finally bring the gameplay up to where it should have been from day one and of course all the pansy cowards are up in arms because they can't mash buttons without any thoughts toward strategy or tactics.
I would much rather the game be a consistent difficulty from level 1 to level 1 Zillion, if that's even a real number. When I design encounters for D&D and NWN, I try to make them appropriately challenging for the correct level range. All the way from level 1 to the epic levels. The group is challenged. It's not that hard to do. What's harder to do is plan ahead for the wacky and zany tactics and ideas the players come up with. In CoH, the devs have a huge advantage over me. They know exactly what players can and can't do. They can also run battle simluations over an' over that I can't for D&D.
Balancing combat in an online game an making it just challenging enough, as they've done in the Hollows, is much easier than doing so for D&D.
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I count my blessings that you are not a game designer. How many games do you know where the 1st level is as hard as the last? Games start out easy and work in the challenge gradually for a reason. It's called hooking the player. Just like most movies don't show you the climactic final act in the first 5 minutes (with a few exceptions).
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Yeah whatever. What keeps a person hooked is gameplay and the consistency of that gameplay. If a game is easy for the first ten levels, they're likely going to think it's going to be easy for the next umpteen levels... and pre-issue #2, it was that way. The game was super boring.
Now the devs finally bring the gameplay up to where it should have been from day one and of course all the pansy cowards are up in arms because they can't mash buttons without any thoughts toward strategy or tactics.
I would much rather the game be a consistent difficulty from level 1 to level 1 Zillion, if that's even a real number. When I design encounters for D&D and NWN, I try to make them appropriately challenging for the correct level range. All the way from level 1 to the epic levels. The group is challenged. It's not that hard to do. What's harder to do is plan ahead for the wacky and zany tactics and ideas the players come up with. In CoH, the devs have a huge advantage over me. They know exactly what players can and can't do. They can also run battle simluations over an' over that I can't for D&D.
Balancing combat in an online game an making it just challenging enough, as they've done in the Hollows, is much easier than doing so for D&D.
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I agree that gameplay keeps a player hooked but you have to get them hooked in the first place. 99% of games do this, look back and you'll see. You might do this in your D&D games but if you had a player, or a full group who had never played before wouldn't you start out easy for them? It just makes good design sense. People react much more favorably to easy than they do to hard. It's human nature. I'm different, I do actullay like a challenge, so do you, the difference between us is that I understand that part of human nature, and as near I can tell (I could be wrong) you do not.
The way I see it, this is a good change.
Why?
Simple. Lowering the challenge allows more variety of playstyle.
Look, if you want a really tough challenge, you can always team up with someone and have them quit and you'll get double the mobs. you can go and hunt above your level. You can do TFs with the minimum number of people. There are plenty of ways for you to challenge yourself.
But for those who aren't interested in that challenge, who prefer a different style of play, lowering the OVERALL challenge is better. This way both camps are able to satisfy themselves.
Just because YOU like the higher game difficulty does not mean that everyone ELSE does. I'm sure you can still find plenty of difficulty in other areas of the game. Why not take a trip over to, say, a zone that's much much tougher? IE: if you're level 6, why not go run into Perez park and try to solo hydras? If you're level 14, why not run off to IP and go take on Family guys who are level 20? Remember, this is not YOUR game, it's a game that is, ideally, designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Towards that end, making the game easier, but with options for the player to challenge themselves is the better option for the game as a whole.
Now, all that aside, I DO like the variety of the Outcasts, although if you've forgotten, the Outcasts already WERE a step up from Hellions and Skulls. Think about it. For the Outcasts and Trolls, the MINIONS operated like Skull/Hellion LTs. The LTs operated like skull/hellion bosses, and the bosses were a step above that. Again, think about it.
Skulls:
- minions = bruisers, choppers, etc.
- LTs = gunners, shotgun guys, etc.
- Bosses = bone daddies.
Outcasts:
- minions = some bruisers, but ALSO gunners, buckshots, etc.
- LTs = shockers, scorchers, bricks.
- Bosses = Leads (basically up-gunned versions of the old guys).
In other words, the OLD Outcasts already WERE tougher than the lower level gangs. They were a good middle ground between, say, the Hellions and the Tsoo.
I like the variety of having guys with different powers, but I really think they should only be hitting as hard as the old buckshots and bruisers used to do. This would make them a step up, nicely differentiated, and yet not overly powerful.
That said, even going back to the old Outcasts and Trolls would be just fine by me. I never thought they were broken to begin with.
And hey, if you don't like it, you can always console yourself with the following response that was given to myself and others who suggested that capes not be carrots, but be costume choices:
"The devs have already decided on this! You're beating a dead horse! Accept it and get over it!"
I do agree with Outcasts having different powers. Before Issue 2 I kept wondering why the dozens of police officers wandering around couldn't arrest a few guys with baseball bats. Now some guys have extraordinary powers that are understandable. However, some of the Outcasts are broken, no matter how hard someone wants to justify them. I'm certain that's what is being addressed by the quote from Statesman that's been copied and pasted at least a dozen times now - those problem mobs are having their abilities adjusted to more closely match their level. The snippet from changes made on Test confirms that - only Lt and Boss Outcast are being altered. Nowhere did it say the Outcast were being dragged into a lab to get their mutations forcibly removed and were then going to be issued bats, pistols and duffel bags from Bad Guys 'R Us.
A couple nights ago, I ran around Steel Canyon with my 13 scrapper, another 13 scrapper and a 13 controller. We took on any group with no more than two Red-con enemies in it - except for Outcasts. Our group was able to take down 5th Column and Clockwork groups with no more than two Reds and in any combination of oranges/yellows/whites up to six enemies total, without getting killed (although there were some rough fights). Any Outcast group that had a combo of three shockers/lead shockers/bricks/lead bricks in any configuration - alone or with minions - would tear us up. Pat yourself on the back all day about how awesome your tactics are, but one group of enemies being far more powerful than others at the same level isn't 'balanced' or a 'refreshing challenge'. Given the option of having a few white/yellow/orange Outcasts kill us, versus beating the snot out of a few yellow/orange/red enemies from any other group, we did the smart thing and earned a ton of experience by hitting those other mobs and avoided the Outcast groups. Unfortunately, you can't choose who to fight if your mission is against the Outcast. Therefore, yes, they need to be adjusted so they provide the same difficulty as the other enemies their level.
As for the Hollows, it is broken. At least the missions are, as the original poster mentioned, because the maps are glitched. My first night in Hollows, Outcast Base #1 (people are calling it the Eel mission), the rest of my group fell through a wall into a blue pit. I finished the mission alone because my character was working under the Exemplar system and was higher than the enemies in the base. The next night on another character I encountered the patrol-in-a-wall phenomenon that I've since seen many more times since. It's happened in both of the Outcast Base missions (Eel and Bedrock) and in a base mission that preceeded Frostfire's, which I forget the name of. When the mission isn't mine, I can log out and bring in my tank to use Teleport Foe to fish the guys out of the stairs so we can complete the mission. Given how many people are suffering from this problem, characters with Teleport Foe could charge to solve the problem and make a fortune. (I wouldn't take advantage of someone else's misfortune, but I know how the online gaming community at large works and am surprised that I haven't seen anyone doing it yet.) I don't think having mobs stuck in a wall is intended as a game feature for making Teleport Foe a more useful power. However, I haven't heard any mention of the mission maps getting holes fixed.
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Except that these same enemies spawn in Steel Canyon and Skyway City.
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What about the Perez Park enemies that spawn in the Abandoned Sewers?
As I said before, I don't mind the tone down on the Outcast in the Hollows, but I would LOVE to see Outcast post 30. The Outcast finally got what they needed and now they're getting toned down a bit.
I understand that solo/duo/trio may have a hard time in the Hollows...AND THEY SHOULD as it is a Trial Zone. Perez is a Hazard Zone and you always see groups of 5+ running around. Heck, I've seen three groups of 8 running Perez, but very few solo. Why? Because the player has figured out...I can't solo here too well. *smaks hand against forehead* Then why complain about the Hollows!? Go back to the city, solo/duo there, where you're meant to be able to solo. Keep the Hazard/Trial zones difficult for those that want to group.
If any player can solo/duo the Hollows, then the game is unbalanced.
Cyclone Jack
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