Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?

It's ok Koyote, I reported her, and CuppaJoe erased one post, edited another and PM'd her a warning. At this point I think we should move the discussion on, or drop it.

But thank you for the thoughts anyway

It wasn't too difficult anymore because you out-levelled your mission.

And what about the part where I chopped up hordes of Outcasts and Trolls on the street?

How about the fact that I was able to clear out Eel's map, +1 spawns and all, except for him?

Fundamentally, when I'm playing low level characters, I want to get them to Talos/IP.

Why?

I also don't like the idea of new players going into door missions at second level and getting pounded by two patrols of two yellow minions and an orange lt. each because they don't yet know their character or the game well enough to handle that fight...especially if playing a controller, blaster, or defender.

I'm sick of these "but what about the children?" arguments. Newbies faced with +1 spawns will learn how to handle them, just like we did. They're not morons, and frankly it is just not that difficult a thing to deal with. Existing players have been spoiled by the ease of the game.

Newbies will be just fine. They don't need to be handheld or coddled, and they certainly don't need anyone crusading for them to be protected from anything that might be even remotely challenging.

Keep in mind that the difficulty of this game is based solely on the discretion of the player.

I am sorry, but this is just not true. A trivially easy game remains unchallenging even if you don't put 'X' in the center square. Achievment in this game is currently meaningless; you can get to 50 entirely by fighting battles you can't lose.

If people can choose their own difficulty, what's the point of having Controllers, Defenders or Tankers, classes meant to function in support roles? Everyone will pick fights they don't need groups for. Should everyone be able to solo like a Scrapper, just do away with the idea of support classes entirely? If they could the game would be even more ridiculously easy when they grouped -- and in any case, what's the point of an MMO in which everyone solos? The developers could never include content that needed any real teamwork to overcome, because the necessary support roles wouldn't exist. Support classes need the game to be difficult so that other players will value and appreciate their help.

I can guarantee that toned-down +2s will be much more difficult than the even cons you're fighting now.

Actually they won't, and that's the problem. Despite the whining to the contrary, the "purple patch" did not go far enough. I took down eight or nine level 40 Rikti Minions the other day with my 36 Kat/SR...+4 mobs should have handed me my head with a side of fries, no saving throw, but the truth is that I was never in any real danger.

Catering to the less skilled players only means that the skilled ones get xp faster... you're not about to go complaining about that, are you?

Yes, I am. If the game isn't challenging for everyone, it isn't challenging for anyone.

YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?

I understand it just fine, it's just wrong.

It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun.

No, it isn't. It is important that they be challenging, that players learn -- fast -- that they will have to use tactics in order to win fights, and that they may be faced with adversaries they just can't beat without help.

It's a fact of life that most people will quit something FAR, FAR more quickly if a task is too hard, than if it's too easy.

I don't accept that, and I don't accept that current CoH difficulty is too hard by any stretch of the imagination.

We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.

They hardly have any powers to begin with. Outcast Minions are using one ranged elemental power (except for Crushers), and one melee elemental power. That's it. LTs get the same, only stronger, plus a support power. Bosses are the only ones with any real spread of powers.

Any "unseen powers" they might have must be nearly insignificant. They sure don't have Stamina -- LTs and Bosses burn out their end in nothing flat.

The only other complaint I have about the Hollows is the defeat Atta and his Guards mission. Somebody went crazy with the troll button on that one, and Atta is a bit too uber for a level 14 boss.

Near as I can figure, that entire story arc was originally meant to be a Task Force but got reimplemented as a story arc instead. It needs to either become a Task Force or become a story arc, and if it's to be a story arc that means the spawns have to be changed from static to dynamic (scaling to number of participants) and the simultaneous-objective fascism has to go.

Do you really want more challenge in less time or more challenge in more time?

I want more challenge all of the time. I want an end to people taking on 8-10 white cons with a level 5 character and winning. I want Statesman's "one hero = three +0 Minions" to be a reality instead of a joke in bad taste. I want an end to herding through the simple expedient of ensuring that anyone even trying to pull that many mobs will die instantly. I want to have to stop and think about what I'm doing when I see a +0 Boss, not just hit BuildUp and chop him to pieces. I want people to be afraid of red cons, not happy they're getting more experience. I want to see Blasters looking for groups, and I want to see Tankers, Controllers and Defenders getting groups without having to beg for them.

And I think the challenge belongs in the entire game at all levels once you leave the Tutorial.

Preach it, sister!

So you're telling me that your scrapper, THE solo class of the game, couldn't solo a mission at level 5.

No. I am telling you I beat the entire map except for one mob with an over-the-top power. When I tried this trick on Test, before the Lightning Field/Hurricane swap, I soloed him without trouble.

I'll grant you that you did finish it solo. How many first time level 5 players, probably still trying to figure out the interface, know they can leave a boss in a mission, go make a level, get some inspirations and come back to mop up?

By level four, your trainer will tell you that if you face a mission that's too difficult you should get help or gain levels before attempting it again, so the answer to your question is ALL OF THEM. There is no excuse for not paying heed to the instructions.

How many of them are familiar with which powers to take at a given level so they're not completely useless at lower levels?

You really can't gimp yourself at level 5.

Especially scrappers, where almost every primary powerset has a total loser power in the first three?

That's hardly so. The worst I could say is that many players might not know they don't need to take both the slow and fast attack powers, only one or the other.

Now, ignoring the new players for a second. If a scrapper can't solo a mission, how do you expect another class to be able to?

I don't. They could outlevel it. Soloing is provisional for all ATs except Scrappers.

Imagine a team of a tank, a defender, and a controller trying to tackle that mission. Nobody at that level has status defense.

Direct resistance to status effects: Accelerate Metabolism (Radiation Emission, level 2), 02 Boost (Storm Summoning, level 1)

Indirect protection: Twilight Grasp (Dark Miasma, level 1), Deflection Shield (Force Field, level 1), Radiation Infection (Radiation Emission, level 1) -- because if they can't hit you, they can't change your status.

Active Countermeasures: Stone Cages (Earth Control, level 2), Fire Cages (Fire Control, level 2), Frostbite (Ice Control, level 2) -- because Immobilized mobs can't reach you to hit you, and if they can't hit you.... I'm only counting AEs here, not the single-target versions, on the premise that you'll have one Controller and many mobs.

It looks to me like at level 5, there are many things a Defender or Controller could bring to the table to help against mobs with disorients.

But the fact that the solo class of the game cannot solo a door mission indicates to me that something is broken.

All it says to me is that Hurricane is a PITA, but I knew that already.

Do you think your experience would have been fun if that was your first night in the game? Imagine being told to go to the hollows, and trying to get to your mission. If you don't even know what an agro radius is, and haven't had a chance to understand the implications of the colors of villians, how could you even make it to a mission without dying?

By level 5, players will know what an agro radius is, and you have had the implications of the con colors explained to you in the tutorial. How stupid do you think newbies are?

and the Thundercloud does insane amounts of damage, constantly, AND it chain stunns you.

Actually what it does is it burns off tons of the Lead Shocker's END for a cheap hit or two, then you run away from it and he follows you.

There are no special tactics, or whatever to be employed that have no been employed before that most of us are used it, and fod forbid we have to go back to quasi-EQ Monk Pulling lameassness to do anything.

IOW, you want to be able to just run in and mash keys without any thought, and still win.

No.

I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE.

No, you are not. You are pro-false-challenge. You want the game to look challenging, but not really be challening. You want people to be able to choose their difficulty, to which I suggest you may have confused this with a console game.

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second thing if you actually read the post I mainly complained about it being to hard for level 6 when I received the mission, but also about the mobs running into walls were I can not attack them.

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I beat the mission at level 6 with my bubble defender. My tank has the mission and while I didn't get a chance to test it today, I will be trying it out as soon as possible. She's sitting right outside the mission door. I may even make a new scrapper just for the purpose of testing out the Eel mission with that AT as well.

Regardless, I still think I'll beat it. It's a simple matter of knowing exactly what your foe can do, what your powers do, what your strengths are, and what your weaknesses are. Then you have to find a way to get rid of your weaknesses.

As a scrapper, I imagine the high damage of Eel and the Knockdown from whirlwind is what's causing the most problems. Discipline, Respites, and Lucks will help there with ACC enhancers in the attacks and hit-n-run attacks will help in the long run.

At least that's my plan. As for the mobs stuck in the walls, I have that problem too with my blaster. She has five or six trolls under the stairs demanding a toll in blood only. I've been waiting for the mission to get fixed or the GM's to get unbusy enough to remove those trolls from the stairs.

You at least tried the mission several times it seems... so you're not a coward... Take my scrapper advice above if you still have the mission.

seeing as we are on the same server I will see ya latter missaurore. My scrapper made it out of the first 2 door missions with help. now for my ice/fire blaster(the one that died allot yesterday)

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It wasn't too difficult anymore because you out-levelled your mission.

And what about the part where I chopped up hordes of Outcasts and Trolls on the street?

How about the fact that I was able to clear out Eel's map, +1 spawns and all, except for him?

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And yet, you couldn't finish the mission. COULD NOT. You keep going on about what you did do, when you could choose your targets, make educated selections, and fight when and where you wanted to. But the fact remains that you had to 'game' the system in order to finish a mission.

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If people can choose their own difficulty, what's the point of having Controllers, Defenders or Tankers, classes meant to function in support roles? Everyone will pick fights they don't need groups for. Should everyone be able to solo like a Scrapper, just do away with the idea of support classes entirely? If they could the game would be even more ridiculously easy when they grouped -- and in any case, what's the point of an MMO in which everyone solos? The developers could never include content that needed any real teamwork to overcome, because the necessary support roles wouldn't exist. Support classes need the game to be difficult so that other players will value and appreciate their help.

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This I generally agree with, but you make the comment that 'should everyone be able to solo like a scrapper.' I refer you back to the above quote that at the current difficulty, you were unable to effectively solo as a scrapper.

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It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun.

No, it isn't. It is important that they be challenging, that players learn -- fast -- that they will have to use tactics in order to win fights, and that they may be faced with adversaries they just can't beat without help.

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The problem is that you have people who've never played a computer game before (like my wife) trying this game. I personally like the fact that she's stuck with it. She's getting frustrated with some of her alts in the hollows now, and she's a reasonably experienced player. If she came here on the first night she played, she probably wouldn't have bothered coming back.

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Do you really want more challenge in less time or more challenge in more time?

I want more challenge all of the time. I want an end to people taking on 8-10 white cons with a level 5 character and winning. I want Statesman's "one hero = three +0 Minions" to be a reality instead of a joke in bad taste. I want an end to herding through the simple expedient of ensuring that anyone even trying to pull that many mobs will die instantly. I want to have to stop and think about what I'm doing when I see a +0 Boss, not just hit BuildUp and chop him to pieces. I want people to be afraid of red cons, not happy they're getting more experience. I want to see Blasters looking for groups, and I want to see Tankers, Controllers and Defenders getting groups without having to beg for them.

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This I agree with as well. However, according to Statesman, the intent of issue #2 was not to raise the difficulty of the game. They will address that problem later, presumably with some warning and discussion about it first. However, I think it's clear that the early level game difficulty was in fact raised.

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I'll grant you that you did finish it solo. How many first time level 5 players, probably still trying to figure out the interface, know they can leave a boss in a mission, go make a level, get some inspirations and come back to mop up?

By level four, your trainer will tell you that if you face a mission that's too difficult you should get help or gain levels before attempting it again, so the answer to your question is ALL OF THEM. There is no excuse for not paying heed to the instructions.

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On your first night playing the game, you're so overwhelmed with new things that you don't even know what's important. Ever read the thread on the Guide board entitled something like 'Things I wish I'd known about CoH'? It's a collection of little things people without photographic memories put together for new people to give them some tips. It took some people a lot of levels before they figured out they could even sell enhancements. Not everyone is a master of online gaming, and understands the game mechanics immediately.

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How many of them are familiar with which powers to take at a given level so they're not completely useless at lower levels?

You really can't gimp yourself at level 5.

Especially scrappers, where almost every primary powerset has a total loser power in the first three?

That's hardly so. The worst I could say is that many players might not know they don't need to take both the slow and fast attack powers, only one or the other.

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I disagree, but it's not particularly relevant. My only point is that if you have a plan for your character, you're several steps ahead of the first time player. You likely have an optimum build (for your level) and still could not complete the mission. If your build is suboptimum, you have no chance.

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Now, ignoring the new players for a second. If a scrapper can't solo a mission, how do you expect another class to be able to?

I don't. They could outlevel it. Soloing is provisional for all ATs except Scrappers.

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I'll concede that one.

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Imagine a team of a tank, a defender, and a controller trying to tackle that mission. Nobody at that level has status defense.

Direct resistance to status effects: Accelerate Metabolism (Radiation Emission, level 2), 02 Boost (Storm Summoning, level 1)

Indirect protection: Twilight Grasp (Dark Miasma, level 1), Deflection Shield (Force Field, level 1), Radiation Infection (Radiation Emission, level 1) -- because if they can't hit you, they can't change your status.

Active Countermeasures: Stone Cages (Earth Control, level 2), Fire Cages (Fire Control, level 2), Frostbite (Ice Control, level 2) -- because Immobilized mobs can't reach you to hit you, and if they can't hit you.... I'm only counting AEs here, not the single-target versions, on the premise that you'll have one Controller and many mobs.

It looks to me like at level 5, there are many things a Defender or Controller could bring to the table to help against mobs with disorients.

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Perhaps my choice of words was too strong, or perhaps you took me a little too literally. However, I'd argue that most of the indirect and active measures are going to be tough going. One attack on a boss won't hold, if it even hits.

If you happen to have the right powersets, you do have some protection. However, every group that goes into this mission needs protection from them. I was in a mission there the other night with a large group, and there were so many status effects flying that we could barely stand up. With all the knocking back and sleeping, we could have used a fleet of clear minds.

Chain stuns make a quick end for most scrappers and tankers. My guess is that a group engineered for these early missions might be ok with the right mix of powers. However, pick-up groups will suck.

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But the fact that the solo class of the game cannot solo a door mission indicates to me that something is broken.

All it says to me is that Hurricane is a PITA, but I knew that already.

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Agree on hurricane. But do you think a level 5 character should be facing hurricanes? Unless it's changed since the publication of the manual (and a lot has), it becomes available to players at level 20.

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Do you think your experience would have been fun if that was your first night in the game? Imagine being told to go to the hollows, and trying to get to your mission. If you don't even know what an agro radius is, and haven't had a chance to understand the implications of the colors of villians, how could you even make it to a mission without dying?

By level 5, players will know what an agro radius is, and you have had the implications of the con colors explained to you in the tutorial. How stupid do you think newbies are?

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You must never put together pick-up groups. I've explained agro to people in their teens. I've even seen some 20th level characters get leveled because they thought they were far enough from a group they were trying to run by. I think people should learn about these things early, but this is a little bit of force feeding.

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There are no special tactics, or whatever to be employed that have no been employed before that most of us are used it, and fod forbid we have to go back to quasi-EQ Monk Pulling lameassness to do anything.

IOW, you want to be able to just run in and mash keys without any thought, and still win.

No.

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I like a challenge, but asking new players to pull like pros is not going to happen. Game strategy and tactics are learned. Experience is the best teacher, with studying a close second. Expecting a level 5 character to have experience is silly.

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I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE.

No, you are not. You are pro-false-challenge. You want the game to look challenging, but not really be challening. You want people to be able to choose their difficulty, to which I suggest you may have confused this with a console game.

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Some people don't play the game for challenge. For this game to continue to be as successful as it has, it has to have broad appeal. Appealing to people who don't have Sun Tzu on their desk is a good thing. Being able to select your difficulty is a good solution. Statesman's all about the risk vs. reward, so I'm sure more difficult missions will have better rewards.

When my grandmother wants to play, she can thrash some baddies without combing the forums for tips on building the best blaster. I think everyone wins then.

And yet, you couldn't finish the mission. COULD NOT. You keep going on about what you did do, when you could choose your targets, make educated selections, and fight when and where you wanted to. But the fact remains that you had to 'game' the system in order to finish a mission.

First off, I didn't do anything the designers didn't intend, so you can't say I "gamed the system". You are supposed to be able to put off that mission and level first if you like. If you weren't, it would have been timed.

Second, and more importantly, you just can't keep harping on this and act like it supports your argument. It doesn't. I beat the whole map, +1 spawns notwithstanding, except for one mob. This does not support the original thesis, which was "+1 spawns in newbie doors are overpowering!"...in fact, it refutes it in the general case. It does not even support "+1 Bosses in newbie doors are overpowering!" At best it supports "+1 Bosses with Hurricane in newbie doors are overpowering!" I'll concede that one freely, but then I'd like to see Hurricane removed from every fricking mob in the game anyway.

The problem is that you have people who've never played a computer game before (like my wife) trying this game.

Again, "but what about the children?" They'll cope.

If she came here on the first night she played, she probably wouldn't have bothered coming back.

A true newbie isn't going to make level 5 in her first session, either.

On your first night playing the game, you're so overwhelmed with new things that you don't even know what's important.

That is no excuse. If you're overwhelmed you should be paying attention to notices like that.

My only point is that if you have a plan for your character, you're several steps ahead of the first time player. You likely have an optimum build (for your level) and still could not complete the mission. If your build is suboptimum, you have no chance.

How suboptimum can a build be by level FIVE? You can't even gimp yourself with worthless pool choices yet!

However, I'd argue that most of the indirect and active measures are going to be tough going. One attack on a boss won't hold, if it even hits.

The indirect stuff will stick just fine. Immobilizes will need to be stacked. If you read the manual, you'd know that more powerful mobs need multiple Immobilizes. If you didn't, you deserve to lose.

If you happen to have the right powersets, you do have some protection. However, every group that goes into this mission needs protection from them.

And fortunately, most Defender primary sets have something you can use. If not by level 5, then by level 8.

Agree on hurricane. But do you think a level 5 character should be facing hurricanes? Unless it's changed since the publication of the manual (and a lot has), it becomes available to players at level 20.

Yeah, and a level 7 Mire Eidolon has Oppressive Gloom, a level 35 Dark Armor power. Mobs have the powers the devs choose to give them, regardless of level or even AT limits. Bone Daddies use Dark Melee and Dark Blast.

You must never put together pick-up groups. I've explained agro to people in their teens.

This is why PLing is bad.

I like a challenge, but asking new players to pull like pros is not going to happen.

What is this pulling of which you speak? That group of 11 Outcasts? I didn't pull from it. I waded in and killed everyone.

Some people don't play the game for challenge.

The Sims Online is <--- that way.

For this game to continue to be as successful as it has, it has to have broad appeal.

The most successful commercial mud to date is EQ (no, I'm not counting Lineage), and it is 100% geared towards PvE achievment. So no, this game does not have to appeal to the lowest common denominator to succeed.

Appealing to people who don't have Sun Tzu on their desk is a good thing.

Now that you mention it, I do have Sun-Tzu on my desk. Along with Lao-Tzu, Chuang-Tzu, Confucius, The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, Machiavelli's The Prince, and Raymond Chandler's The Simple Art of Murder (for the title essay) -- seven books that contain all you really need to know.

But the simple fact is that if the game has no challenge, it will become boring to everyone, even the My Little Pony crowd.

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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No, no,no, no! Dear lord! It's a hazard zone for Pete's sake! It's suppose to be harder there. I like the Trolls and Outcasts giving me a challenge, makes them different that the common thug which is what the Skulls and Hellions pretty much are.

My main problem with the 'It's too easy! That isn't interesting!' crowd is that they never consider the reverse end of things. What if the mob difficulty was closer to FFXI, or EQ, where you'd need a perfect or near-perfect party in order to safely take down an enemy? How is that any more interesting? Especially with the sheer variation of builds, and the numerous fun-but-'imperfect' characters that can be made. It's always easy to hunt over your level, or do other things to artifically increase difficulty, but it's much, much harder to try and work around overpowered mobs. I'd also argue that dramatically higher difficulty makes for more interesting gameplay, in and of itself, at low levels; is 'pull, hide around the corner, repeat' really any more fun or heroic than 'wade into the fray'?

As for the Outcasts and Trolls themselves... well, I do like the changes, but they are overpowered. Not dramatically, but they shouldn't have had status effects at that low a level. It's not fun to be chain-stunned, or even to be whacked around and have to restart your toggles every ten seconds. It isn't any fun at the high levels either, poor Fire and Ice tankers, but that's no reason to bring that sort of gameplay dynamic down to the lower levels. Even Lieutenants and Bosses should use these sparingly, or not at all - it's not dramatic to be punched dizzy by a Lead Shocker, and then chain-stunned and battered down to a hospital trip.

The overall damage, as well, was much higher... moving from 8's in Perez to 9's in the Hollows with a novice showed this; even with resists on, the overall survivability was much, much lower. If the two groups can keep the variety of powers, but possess no status effects and damage somewhere between where they are now and where they were before, it'd probably work out well, without ruining their uniqueness. Of course, this is probably exactly what Statesman is planning.

What if the mob difficulty was closer to FFXI, or EQ, where you'd need a perfect or near-perfect party in order to safely take down an enemy?

You only needed a "perfect or near-perfect" group in EQ if you were taking on raiding targets. The corrolary here would be AVs -- are you prepared to argue that AVs should be solo material, or that you should be able to take them on by just throwing any old bunch of people at them?

In any case, missions will continue to scale to the number of participants, which means soloing will always be an option.

It's always easy to hunt over your level, or do other things to artifically increase difficulty, but it's much, much harder to try and work around overpowered mobs.

No, it isn't. This is the point -- it's an artificial increase in difficulty. Because it is artificial, support classes -- three out of five in this game -- are never truly needed. That means they'd might as well not exist. Because it is artificial every defeat and every victory is hollow. If you are defeated it is only because you chose to be, by taking unnessecary chances. You could have played it safe and levelled just the same. And if you win, so what? The people playing it safe get the same rewards.

I'd also argue that dramatically higher difficulty makes for more interesting gameplay, in and of itself, at low levels; is 'pull, hide around the corner, repeat' really any more fun or heroic than 'wade into the fray'?

Ask Batman.

It's not fun to be chain-stunned, or even to be whacked around and have to restart your toggles every ten seconds. It isn't any fun at the high levels either, poor Fire and Ice tankers, but that's no reason to bring that sort of gameplay dynamic down to the lower levels.

Sure it is. The lack of defenses on Blasters is supposed to mean something. They can stack pool defenses to get almost as much Defense as a Reflexes Scrapper (which is not a good thing, but that's another argument), and they can even get small amounts of protection from Immobilize, Hold and KB if they take Leaping, but they can't protect themselves from Disorients. That means they need someone to take the shots for them (Tanker) or to pre-empt the enemy (Controller) or protect them when they do get hit (Defender). The faster that is made evident, the better. The bulk of this whining is coming from Blasters who suddenly discovered they couldn't just fire at will and blow everything to pieces. The weaknesses of the various ATs should be manifest at all levels of play so that people won't become spoiled by not having to deal with them at the lower levels.

If the two groups can keep the variety of powers, but possess no status effects and damage somewhere between where they are now and where they were before, it'd probably work out well, without ruining their uniqueness.

Right, because mobs that a level 5 Scrapper can fight 8-10 at a time are just too powerful.

I have to step back a minute and mention that this has ended up being a very interesting and thought provoking thread. There has been very little hostility, and much actual discussion.

After hearing some opinions that differ than my own, I've decided to start a new alt with the express intent of checking things out again from 0. I had a few low level characters that did some missions in the hollows, but none that I had started new since issue #2.

I've just dinged 4, and will play more today to see how it goes in the hollows. However, I do see a larger number of enemies and some decidedly more difficult ones in my first few missions just in AP.

I still haven't been defeated yet (with my storm summoning defender) and have teamed with my wife as a blaster. It's been a little tough, but careful play and good use of inspirations has paid off so far. We'll see how this translates in the hollows.

Not to be pessimistic, but I do have to wonder if anything will come from our discussions here. I know the devs read these boards regularly, but there's a lot of stuff here. I don't know if our input will make a difference or not.

Anyway, so far you've at least managed to make me question my ideas enough to start over and take a closer look. We'll see how my opinion ends up after trying some of these missions (hopefully tonight).

-Garrik

yes

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Again, "but what about the children?" They'll cope.


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This is just silliness. It's a fact of life, and part of human nature that people in general, are more prone to quit something that is too hard than too easy. Easy is always a MUCH safer default. I think the difficulty should be challenging but it should be built up to that level. Not *wham!* challenge.

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If she came here on the first night she played, she probably wouldn't have bothered coming back.

A true newbie isn't going to make level 5 in her first session, either.


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You're avoiding the point of his statement. If his wife got to that point the 2nd or 3rd play session the result could be the same.

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On your first night playing the game, you're so overwhelmed with new things that you don't even know what's important.

That is no excuse. If you're overwhelmed you should be paying attention to notices like that.


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Here is some worldy advice that help you greatly. Everyone does not equal you. Meaning not everyone can excerise the same focus that you can. Show a little more understanding. If games were all made and catered to your level the industry would likely crash.

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Some people don't play the game for challenge.

The Sims Online is <--- that way.


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There's some good advice for you. How about everyone who is not up to the challenge quit! Yeah, less money in the pockets of Cryptic is always a good thing. I like this arguement, nothing says compassion & understanding like a "just quit' statement.

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For this game to continue to be as successful as it has, it has to have broad appeal.

The most successful commercial mud to date is EQ (no, I'm not counting Lineage), and it is 100% geared towards PvE achievment. So no, this game does not have to appeal to the lowest common denominator to succeed.


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Actually EQ did succeed because of it's mass appeal. More housewives and non gamers played it than ever before (at that time, before the Sims & Roller Coaster). How is EQ being PvE supporting an arguement AGAINST it's mass appeal? If anyting it is the opposite. Plus, EQ is very easy the first 10 levels. All games want to make someone feel good. A great way to do that is to flatter someones ego by making things slightly easy. Good games do that, hook you, then start introducing more and more challenge gradually.

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But the simple fact is that if the game has no challenge, it will become boring to everyone, even the My Little Pony crowd.

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I agree with this however I think the challenge should be built up gradually, not suddenly.

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If the two groups can keep the variety of powers, but possess no status effects and damage somewhere between where they are now and where they were before, it'd probably work out well, without ruining their uniqueness.

Right, because mobs that a level 5 Scrapper can fight 8-10 at a time are just too powerful.

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You do realize that is incredibly rare don't you? I think it's a safe bet that 99% of the player base can't do this. Short of seeing a demo file I'm VERY skeptical that even you can do this, especially if it's in the hollows and the mobs are even conned.

Ugh, I keep seeing posts I missed. My apologies for not putting these all together in one.

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Keep in mind that the difficulty of this game is based solely on the discretion of the player.

I am sorry, but this is just not true. A trivially easy game remains unchallenging even if you don't put 'X' in the center square. Achievment in this game is currently meaningless; you can get to 50 entirely by fighting battles you can't lose.

If people can choose their own difficulty, what's the point of having Controllers, Defenders or Tankers, classes meant to function in support roles? Everyone will pick fights they don't need groups for. Should everyone be able to solo like a Scrapper, just do away with the idea of support classes entirely? If they could the game would be even more ridiculously easy when they grouped -- and in any case, what's the point of an MMO in which everyone solos? The developers could never include content that needed any real teamwork to overcome, because the necessary support roles wouldn't exist. Support classes need the game to be difficult so that other players will value and appreciate their help.


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They can do this now and they dont need Controllers, Defenders or any suppoters if they dont want them. Just solo missions and hunt in non Hazard zones.


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Catering to the less skilled players only means that the skilled ones get xp faster... you're not about to go complaining about that, are you?

Yes, I am. If the game isn't challenging for everyone, it isn't challenging for anyone.


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Huh? Different people play at different skill levels. We have a good system now with the fixes coming. The slider will make it even better. If you want a challenge you take yellows, if less skilled do they take whites. You have to understand whites = optimal for the majority. NOT optimal for you.

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YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?

I understand it just fine, it's just wrong.


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See my statement above. There is nothing wrong with this because it caters to the majority of players.

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It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun.

No, it isn't. It is important that they be challenging, that players learn -- fast -- that they will have to use tactics in order to win fights, and that they may be faced with adversaries they just can't beat without help.


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Look back at the most successful games of the past. ALL of them prove you wrong.

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It's a fact of life that most people will quit something FAR, FAR more quickly if a task is too hard, than if it's too easy.

I don't accept that, and I don't accept that current CoH difficulty is too hard by any stretch of the imagination.


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I've worked with focus groups before. I realize you don't know me but trust me, it's overwhelming common. As for CoH difficulty, it's not to you but it is to other people. You and others keep insisting that players need to get better, well some just can't. Not everyone is the same as you.

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We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.

They hardly have any powers to begin with. Outcast Minions are using one ranged elemental power (except for Crushers), and one melee elemental power. That's it. LTs get the same, only stronger, plus a support power. Bosses are the only ones with any real spread of powers.

Any "unseen powers" they might have must be nearly insignificant. They sure don't have Stamina -- LTs and Bosses burn out their end in nothing flat.


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This is rendered moot by Benzigami's analysis of the changes.

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I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE.

No, you are not. You are pro-false-challenge. You want the game to look challenging, but not really be challening. You want people to be able to choose their difficulty, to which I suggest you may have confused this with a console game.

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What the hell is that? Are you a mind reader? You might be skilled in the game but you're certainly not in reading comprehension. Go back and read my posts, I state that I want more challenge in the later levels numerous times. As for wanting a slider, the devs want this too so do a very, very vast majority of players.

You only needed a "perfect or near-perfect" group in EQ if you were taking on raiding targets. The corrolary here would be AVs -- are you prepared to argue that AVs should be solo material, or that you should be able to take them on by just throwing any old bunch of people at them?

Irrelavent. We're talking about novice level mobs being too powerful, not about archvillain fights requiring support.

In any case, missions will continue to scale to the number of participants, which means soloing will always be an option.

But not if the base scaling, at the minimum (one-person/solo) level, is too high.

No, it isn't. This is the point -- it's an artificial increase in difficulty. Because it is artificial, support classes -- three out of five in this game -- are never truly needed. That means they'd might as well not exist. Because it is artificial every defeat and every victory is hollow. If you are defeated it is only because you chose to be, by taking unnessecary chances. You could have played it safe and levelled just the same. And if you win, so what? The people playing it safe get the same rewards.

I'd argue there's deeper problems at work here than just that. 'Support' classes should be able at solo at a reasonable percentage of the speed of a blaster or scrapper, at all level; some can do this (fire and illusion controllers post-32, fire/* tankers post-burn, etc.), some just can't (mind/* controllers, etc.). There's a fine line between 'desired' and 'essential', and many people want to push it over into the latter. In my supergroup, we can get along alright without a controller or defender; it's not essential. But when there's one or more in the group, things are much much smoother, and downtime is minimized or eliminated. If they're essential, however, that means we wouldn't be an effective team without one; and how much fun is waiting for the right sort of player to join up?

Ask Batman.

Yeah, he snipes and hides around corners all the time.

Sure it is. The lack of defenses on Blasters is supposed to mean something. They can stack pool defenses to get almost as much Defense as a Reflexes Scrapper (which is not a good thing, but that's another argument), and they can even get small amounts of protection from Immobilize, Hold and KB if they take Leaping, but they can't protect themselves from Disorients. That means they need someone to take the shots for them (Tanker) or to pre-empt the enemy (Controller) or protect them when they do get hit (Defender). The faster that is made evident, the better. The bulk of this whining is coming from Blasters who suddenly discovered they couldn't just fire at will and blow everything to pieces. The weaknesses of the various ATs should be manifest at all levels of play so that people won't become spoiled by not having to deal with them at the lower levels.

There's more to defense than just status protection, and there should be. Damage plays a signifigant part, and (for the most part) blasters have little to no ways to mitigate that as well. There's pool powers, but again, that's irrelavent; other classes with better defenses can and do take those as well. And as mentioned, it's not blasters who have difficulty with chain stuns and sleeps; what about fire tankers, or ice tankers? Or Dark Armor scrappers, who have to choose between being held or being near-one-shotted? Or Empathy or Kinetic defenders, who have no self-usable status resistance powers?

Right, because mobs that a level 5 Scrapper can fight 8-10 at a time are just too powerful.

Irrelavent. What build, what powers, what slots? What levels are the mobs being fought? Just because one or more carefully-specialized and planned builds can do it doesn't mean it's somehow universally easy; it just means they're throwing off the curve.

You do realize that is incredibly rare don't you? I think it's a safe bet that 99% of the player base can't do this. Short of seeing a demo file I'm VERY skeptical that even you can do this, especially if it's in the hollows and the mobs are even conned.

I don't have time to reply to the rest of this, but here:

Level 5 Broadsword/Invul vs. Outcasts
Level 5 Broadsword/Invul vs. Trolls

There's interference on the play in the second one as a good samaritan came to my rescue near the end, but I think it gets the point across nevertheless. I did fail the first one twice; I tried doing it with just one Luck.

Build was: Hack (Acc/Rchg), Slice (Acc/Rchg/Dmg/Dmg), Resist Physical Damage (Res), Temp. Invulnerability (Res). Inspirations used were two Lucks, one Discipline and either two or three Respites. I did not use any inspirations that dropped during either fight. Note that Invulnerability offers no defense against the Outcasts' elemental attacks at this level, so this is hardly optimum. It was easier with the Katana/SR build. Dark Armor should do well, but Regeneration might not be up to the job. Of the primaries only Claws and Martial Arts are problematic as neither has an AE at level 5.

I shot these tonight on Infinity. Where, by the way, someone should tell people that the Hollows is a horrible deathtrap, no one can survive, etc. because frankly, the zone was crowded. Took me forever to find the spawns for these shots.

As far as I am concerned, this puts to rest any complaints about the difficulty in the Hollows. The zone can be soloed. If it can be soloed, then it is not too difficult for groups, and as it is a Hazard Zone it is intended that groups hunt here. If anything, the zone may be too easy.

The missions in the Hollows are as much a hazard as the zone itself.

Hazard Zone specific missions should = hazard zone style groups, meaning NOT SOLOABLE unless you severly outlevel them.

If you can't do it at level 6, gasp...mabye you shouldn't bother just yet.

Level 5 Broadsword/Invul vs. Outcasts
Level 5 Broadsword/Invul vs. Trolls
(...)
Inspirations used were two Lucks, one Discipline and either two or three Respites
(...)
Of the primaries only Claws and Martial Arts are problematic as neither has an AE at level 5.

This is exactly what I mean, though. You have a build that's, while not uncommon, the exact sort of scrapper that's good for hazard-mining. Multi-hit attack, decent resists for the level, and using a third to half of your inspiration tray. Pretty good for hazard-farming, certainly, but that doesn't mean it's easy; it just means you're prepared ahead of time for it. What level mobs? 5, 6? That's a limited region of the zone, to say the least. And I can't see that sort of performance against 7 or 8's, simply due to the way to-hit rolls scale, and the difficulty of boosting both defense and accuracy at newbie levels.

Did you recover enough inspirations between the battles to make up for what was spent, in the right distribution so that you could beat the next? That's part of the crux of the argument with Hollows missions, especially; you can win just about any near-level fight if you blow enough of the right inspirations, but that doesn't mean it's sustainable, or worth the effort to. I find this part especially hard to believe; disciplines, especially, are rare(ish) inspiration drops, so are not a reliably renewable resource.

And what if you were a single target build? Most tankers, defenders, controllers? Or if you didn't have invulnerability defense powers? Or...?

Where, by the way, someone should tell people that the Hollows is a horrible deathtrap, no one can survive, etc. because frankly, the zone was crowded. Took me forever to find the spawns for these shots.

Well no crap, it's a new zone, and one that just about anyone can access. Of course it'll be crowded early on... especially since it isn't obvious that you can skip the Hollows missions, if you don't know about it ahead of time. Or maybe all those people lurking around the mission doors begging for groups was my imagination?

As it is now, the way I see it.. the minions are fine. They shouldn't ever stun, but that seems to have been fixed a patch or two ago, so it's pretty much a non-issue. The real problem is the Lieutenants, and to a lesser extent, the bosses. The Outcasts stand out too much here, with both the Bricks and Shockers having the ability to chain-stun, even now. The Boss versious of both can do more, including the Lead Bricks' immobilzes, and the Lead Shockers' hurricane.

Now, I'm willing to argue that Hellion and Skull and Clockwork Lieutenants are underpowered. But... they were the baseline everyone went by before for lower-level enemies; harder-hitting and more durable than their associated minions, but not with a drastically more varied power sets. The Clockwork lieutenants can stun and hold.. but I've never seen a single one chain them, either. Now, if everything else is notably easier, then there's two likely conclusions that can be drawn. The first is that the prior enemy groups were underpowered... but this doesn't seem to be the case, considering the constant downward tweaks of the Outcasts and Trolls, and Statesman's comments about them. The second is - the Outcasts and Trolls (and thus by extension, the main zone(s) where they congregate) are more powerful than comparable opponents.

It's not any one problem that make the Hollows aggrivating. The Tsoo, for instance, are more varied than comparable opponents, but (most) people don't complain too much about them. But... you don't have to run through a zone full of Tsoo five or more levels above you, in massive packs, to get to missions. You don't (usually) have to face red-con Tsoo bosses in missions. You don't get a contact that sends you on a wild goose chase to said theoretical Tsoo-filled zones. You don't have to fight Tsoo at level 5. It's all of these things, put together, that become a problem... any one of them can be overcome.

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As far as I am concerned, this puts to rest any complaints about the difficulty in the Hollows. The zone can be soloed. If it can be soloed, then it is not too difficult for groups, and as it is a Hazard Zone it is intended that groups hunt here. If anything, the zone may be too easy.

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Look, I appreciate you taking the time to make the videos and share them with us. However this only proves that 1 build played by a skilled player can solo the Hollows.

Does this mean that every one and every build can? No. Look at the quote from me you used in your post. I said "99% of the player base can't do this". If I could drive like an Indy Racecar Pro then do I have a case for upping the speed limit dramtically? Is it fair for me to say, "Well everyone else should learn it at my skill level". No, that's not fair, nor is it wise.

You want a challenge, and after the fix yellows and oranges will provide that for you. While whites will provide it for the majority of players. Like I said before, white = optimal, which is the majority. Yellow/orange = skilled, which is your level.

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Plus, EQ is very easy the first 10 levels.

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Hah, I died so many times during my first ten levels, I lost my corpse with my treasured rusty long sword I wrested from the shattered remains of a decaying skeleton and several pieces of tattered armor I'd stitched together from badly hewn wolf hides, I got lost in my home city every time I tried to find the rogue's guild, I got killed by the wandering Griffin in East Commons several times, and so much more.

Y'know what... that was all before level 10. Doesn't seem so easy does it... yet I went on to play my rogue all the way up to level 65 and aquired my epic along the way and so much more. Easy... *laughs*

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If you want a challenge you take yellows, if less skilled do they take whites.

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Or vice versa, if you want to take the easy, lazy road, you take go street hunt blue / greens and cuddle at the cuddle puddle in Gemini Park while the people that want a challenge and to play the game as it should be, take white / yellow / orange / red cons in their missions.

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Look back at the most successful games of the past. ALL of them prove you wrong.

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See EQ anecdote above. Add one DAoC anecdote with a dash of SWG and you'll see that successful games are not easy, boring ventures. Even from the first levels.

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You want a challenge, and after the fix yellows and oranges will provide that for you. While whites will provide it for the majority of players. Like I said before, white = optimal, which is the majority. Yellow/orange = skilled, which is your level.

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You mean after the nerf. Once again the vocal minority (the whiny people on the forums) will get their way in yet another game. It's utter BS. The game should be challenging from level 1 to 50. Period. Otherwise people will fly through the first ten, twelve levels playing one way and get smacked around when they enter Steel Canyon and face some Tsoo.

They'll whine and gripe about it and maybe quit when they get frustrated because they didn't learn how to play the game properly in the lower levels.

People that want a challenge should not be forced to skip content (missions) just to find something challenging to fight. Less - skilled players can group to do their missions or street hunt til the missions are easier for them. Either way, they get all the content. If we did things your stupid way, the bored players would only be left with street hunting.

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Or vice versa, if you want to take the easy, lazy road, you take go street hunt blue / greens and cuddle at the cuddle puddle in Gemini Park while the people that want a challenge and to play the game as it should be, take white / yellow / orange / red cons in their missions.

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I don't think that street-hunting is an issue with anyone, except for the Trolls and Outcast who are over-powered now. The problem is in the door missions.

I just took a DM/DA Scrapper to level 11 in 19 hours of gameplay. I had fun up to a certain point.

Let me explain: I ONLY did door missions once I had outleveled them, or if I knew I would outlevel them once inside. That took care of the +1 problem. They were still pretty tough, but I managed, because I chose Teleport Foe at level 6, which is great for carefully taking out groups without them pounding at you all at once. In between door missions I street-swept in AP (1-6) and KR (6-10).

This morning, I hit level 11. Every contact I have sends me into Steel Canyon for my next missions. So, he's parked there now. Not playing him again until the over-powered villains are fixed. And, yes, before anyone starts flaming me: they ARE over-powered.

My level 13 Tanker, as stated in another thread, almost bit the dust a few hours ago against 2 level 12 Bricks. He's an optimal build (defense) and should not have that much trouble against 2 whites.

Point is: anyone can make this game as "easy" or as "hard" as they want it, as long as you're talking about street-sweeping. You can carefully pick your targets and avoid those that would be too hard. Door mission are a whole other ball-game. And once you're over level 10, street-sweeping becomes a non-issue too, so out-leveling your missions doesn't seem much of an option, especially since the only places to do that in are Steel Canyon and some areas of Skyway.

Just wanna say lol they are getting dumbed down so no worries, shame but ohwell. I just dont see how they are overpowered at your level really. The Tsoo are more tougher then them at this point. But again they are getting dumbed down so no worries.

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Just wanna say lol they are getting dumbed down so no worries, shame but ohwell. I just dont see how they are overpowered at your level really. The Tsoo are more tougher then them at this point. But again they are getting dumbed down so no worries.

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Right. The Tsoo I wouldn't even touch with a 100-foot pole. But what mobs are doable then in SC? It used to be the Outcast.

LOL wow

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LOL wow

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Care to elaborate on that?