Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?

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All this aside. Players groaning for more difficulty could be described as whining as well. Whining that it not be changed. Have you read many of the posts out there?

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wanting things to be more challenging is whining?

what kinda bizzaro wrold are you from?

whining is the act of complaining unjustly. saying something is too hard when it isnt is a whine.

making the claim that something is too easy and should not be made easier is not a whine . . .

i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .

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All this aside. Players groaning for more difficulty could be described as whining as well. Whining that it not be changed. Have you read many of the posts out there?

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wanting things to be more challenging is whining?

what kinda bizzaro wrold are you from?

whining is the act of complaining unjustly. saying something is too hard when it isnt is a whine.

making the claim that something is too easy and should not be made easier is not a whine . . .

i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .

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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...

You actually DO NOT have to do it. Yeah you may have to go in and talk to the guy but you don't have to run the mission he gives. Simply just talk to him, ignore his missions and go back to your original contact. Problem solved.

you're hopeless

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If you're in a group that's dying lots... someone's not playing nice with the others. An organized group with a balance of archetypes can take just about anything within their level range and then some. It just requires teamwork. Simple as that.


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I've been in teams and rarely do they work like well oiled machines. You always run the risk of having bad/poor players. What then? Kick them and go back and recruit? That requires time, and the patience of the team you're leading. If it takes too long, more might drop out, which requires more recruiting. Difficulty can mean more than just harder bad guys.

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I can. With my Fire/Dev blaster, Fire/Fire tanker, Katana / Regen can, and with my Force Field / Energy Blast defender. It make take a few ( a lot of) inpspirations, but it's doable. Now if you're talking about just charging in and trying to nuke 'em / slash 'em / bash 'em all down while they all beat on you... no, not going to happen. But if you play smart, use the terrain to your advantage and know how to fully use all your powers, you can take 'em.


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Use terrain to your advantage? Like dumpsters? What specifically do you mean? I'm not going to call you a liar. However I will say that a level 5 to 15 who can take a group of 6 to 8 minions, 2 Lts and possibly 1 boss is INCREDIBLY SUPER DUPER MUCHO RARE.

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you're hopeless

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Your arguement has resorted to that? A personal attack? I suppose this means I've won this round. Victory is mine!

P.S. You realize uncalled for personal attacks are considered Trolling by the Board Guidelines and explicitly forbidden.

[censored], 4 freaking pages, and no one bothers with the problem he mentioned, just jibber jabber about the zone.

To Statesman -- the Hollows is pretty freaking fun, I don't think you should change it, maybe tone their dmg a bit, but don't bother changing much, the powers they have are great.

But that Outcast base mission is ridiculous, and I don't have a problem beating the snot out of every single one of those Outcast, I don't care what level I am. My problem with it, is in 8 tries to do the mission, I have been ABLE to complete it 2 times. One of the mission objectives is to defeat ALL the Outcasts, and when a group of them is stuck in a wall (which happened everytime a certain map config came up), you can't kill them, but be careful, they can still kick the crap outta you. Brought in a level 19 burn tanker, couldn't get them, tried resetting, got the same mission map, with the same stair config and the same problem. Got a different config once, only to have one hallway we couldn't go down because when you looked you saw black, and when you went in you fell so far all of us level 8s were left with 1 hp, and were under the mission map. The mission needs work, the whole zone needs work, and I don't mean gameplay tweaks, I mean bug fixes. When it works like it should the Hollows is great (as is PP, remember, it is supposed to be confusing as hell when you are in there, that is part of the danger), but there is so often that it doesn't work, and I am too impatient to sit there forever waiting for a GM to log my problem.

Which reminds me, you guys need to put a timer or something, to at least give us some hope of when you should show up by.

Melmo -- 37 AR/Dev on Guardian

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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Just wanting to add my voice to the multitude - please don't do this. One of my (few) problems with the game is that some of the villain groups are pretty much the same thing over and over; guns and bats and knives and punching. Yes, they start to diverge once you get up to LTs and bosses, but the minions are the same old, same old. Skulls, Hellions, Outcasts, Trolls, Warriors, Family...all basically the same Buckshot/Brawler/Slicer/etc that we see all the time. And, as a solo or duo player most of the time, minions and the occasional LT are most of what I see.

That's not to say that all the villain groups are uninteresting; I like a lot of them. But I viewed the Outcast change as a positive step. It really made the Outcast a lot more interesting to me and set them apart from the other 'thug' villain groups. I would hate to see them go back to the same kind of mundane minion we see from level 1.

Of course, the operative word here may be 'fewer'. If the minions end up just having a single elemental attack, that may be fine; they are just minions. But please don't just give them the same old melee and ranged attacks every other gang member has across the board.

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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...


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when the shao lin master says the pain is not bad enough, hit him harder.

when the navy seal says the conditions he is training under are not harsh enough, make it tougher.

when the karate master says 3 boards is too easy, make it 6.

theyre whining?

i'd like to see you call them whiners . . . i'd pay money to see that.

"this challenge is not hard enough, make it harder" is not whining . . . it is the anithesis of whining.

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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...


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when the shao lin master says the pain is not bad enough, hit him harder.

when the navy seal says the conditions he is training under are not harsh enough, make it tougher.

when the karate master says 3 boards is too easy, make it 6.

theyre whining?

i'd like to see you call them whiners . . . i'd pay money to see that.

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*sigh*

I never said asking for more of a challenge was whining!!!

YOU said I said that. I did not.

I said many, not all, of the posts asking for more of a challenge was whining.

Lets compare:

NOT WHINE: "The game is too easy right now. I need to be inspired and challenged!"

vs.

WHINE: "Why is the game so easy? Can't they make it harder? Why? Its so easy its not fair. I don't like it"

I really thought that everyone was whining about Electric Eel and similar doors. I was on last week and helped somebody out with one, because he had died three times already and asked for help. I didn't think it was that bad.

But, two nights ago, I took another character into the Hollows, and got a group of level 10's and 11's, went into the first Electric Eel mission and the lvl 10's start screaming about "seeing purple" and before you know it, half the team is dead. (I was level 11, and "only" saw yellows, orange and reds.) We all got chain-stunned, and the two kinetics defenders couldn't hit transfusion fast enough to keep everyone alive.

It was pretty nuts. After about 7 deaths total, we called in some heavy artillery just to get through the door.

Simply put, the Outcast Lieutenants and Bosses were using powers that we couldn't counter at our levels. Level 11 bosses shouldn't be casting Hurricane and Thunder Strike.

As much as I enjoy a challenge, a tweak downward in difficulty would be nice.

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waaaaaaaah I want it harder, waaaaaaah.

That's not whining? Ahem, speaking of bizarro universes...


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when the shao lin master says the pain is not bad enough, hit him harder.

when the navy seal says the conditions he is training under are not harsh enough, make it tougher.

when the karate master says 3 boards is too easy, make it 6.

theyre whining?

i'd like to see you call them whiners . . . i'd pay money to see that.

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*sigh*

I never said asking for more of a challenge was whining!!!

YOU said I said that. I did not.

I said some of the posts asking for more of a challenge was whining.

Lets compare:

NOT WHINE: "The game is too easy right now. I need to be inspired and challenged!"

vs.

WHINE: "Why is the game so easy? Can't they make it harder? Why? Its so easy its not fair. I don't like it"

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brillinat back pedal manuever . . . i give it a 9.2

"It's so easy its not fair" huh????

not only have i never seen that stated in any form . . . it doesnt make sense. the easier something is, the "fairer" it is for more people . . .

your continual abuse of logic is making my Vulcan blood boil . . . must punch teeth!

*sigh*

Must we battle over the definiton of a word?

I was simply calling you on the definition of whine. You can whine about anything. You can whine that sky is green, you can whine that 1+1 = 3, you can whne that something is too easy, or too hard.

Here is your post flaming me for my definition of whining:

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wanting things to be more challenging is whining?

what kinda bizzaro wrold are you from?

whining is the act of complaining unjustly. saying something is too hard when it isnt is a whine.

making the claim that something is too easy and should not be made easier is not a whine . . .

i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .



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Here is webster dictionary definition:

Main Entry: whine
Pronunciation: 'hwIn, 'wIn
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whined; whin·ing

1 a : to utter a high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry b : to make a sound similar to such a cry <the wind whined in the chimney>
2 : to complain with or as if with a whine


Allow me to quote you again..

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i cant believe im actually trying to explain what whining is to someone. oh wait, this is the internet . . .


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*sigh*

Must we battle over the definiton of a word?

I was simply calling you on the definition of whine.

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if your gonna "call me on the definition of whine", then yes . . . i guess we are going to battle over the definition of a word.

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*sigh*

Must we battle over the definiton of a word?

I was simply calling you on the definition of whine.

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if your gonna "call me on the definition of whine", then yes . . . i guess we are going to battle over the definition of a word.

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Nice avoidance of the dictionary defintion being held against your definition. I especially liked how you clipped the quote and conveniently left it out. Anyhow, I'm done with arguing w/you over the definition of the word. Clearly not only have I won but the english language has as well. Thanks to Websters Dictionary.

stop whining.

What in the hell more of the same mobs with stupid machine guns and bats. Flares and Iceblast choice of powers you choose when you create characters. Bah really bad decision while your at it get rid of Tsoo sorcs hurricane and there healing ability. Why not just give abberants guns to and give up there hold powers. Why give in, the new outcast and trolls after patch were perfect. Sigh the direction this game is going, the only problem was the +1 missios spawn why mess with the outcast powers.

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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THANK YOU!

and bury all mobs in the ground up to their necks, so all they can do is shout curses and spit at us while we kick them senseless.

wow, did you ever think being a Super Hero could be so easy?

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What in the hell more of the same mobs with stupid machine guns and bats. Flares and Iceblast choice of powers you choose when you create characters. Bah really bad decision while your at it get rid of Tsoo sorcs hurricane and there healing ability. Why not just give abberants guns to and give up there hold powers. Why give in, the new outcast and trolls after patch were perfect. Sigh the direction this game is going, the only problem was the +1 missios spawn why mess with the outcast powers.

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The reasons why make sense to me, not only for reasons I've already mentioned above but also...These levels represent a players first impression of the game. Players are more likely to quit when something is too hard than when something is too easy. Not saying I do, or you do, just most people do.

If any upping of difficulty is called for it should begin at 14 (when you get your travel power), grow gradually and peak in the 20s or 30s then stay at that level.

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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).

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Please don't remove the Outcast minions' powers! Skulls and Hellion minions are already pretty boring. Outcasts and Trolls, pre-I2, were both just as boring. Other than the skin, you might as well have been fighting Contaminateds. BORING. Outcasts' whole reasons for existance is supposed to be that their amazing powers make them unable to live in normal society! Against them, it felt like I was actually fighting super-powered criminals, as opposed to some random street thug. If you have to make them easier, give them lower HP or damage or something. Heck, give Hellions some cool weapons (they are supposed to have artifact power, no?).

I'm going to contribute one thing to this conversation.

The one place where every game should be a little too easy is at the beginning. At level 6, people who just bought the game may not even know that debt is. Hitting the limit on it is not the way they should be introduced to it.

This is true of every game out there. For the first section of the game you take it easy on the player. Let him learn the basics, like finding groups or using tactics. If you have a place early on where he has to learn *all* of these things really fast, you'll lose him.

Level 12 comes really fast. After that it's OK to start ratcheting up the difficulty a bit. Before that, the game *needs* to be fairly easy to give new players a chance to figure things out one at a time.

why not keep the powers but tone them down... or better yet... actually have them run out of endurance like we do. it's frustrating to not be able to do anything because we are constantly stunned or held.

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What in the hell more of the same mobs with stupid machine guns and bats. Flares and Iceblast choice of powers you choose when you create characters. Bah really bad decision while your at it get rid of Tsoo sorcs hurricane and there healing ability. Why not just give abberants guns to and give up there hold powers. Why give in, the new outcast and trolls after patch were perfect. Sigh the direction this game is going, the only problem was the +1 missios spawn why mess with the outcast powers.

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The reasons why make sense to me, not only for reasons I've already mentioned above but also...These levels represent a players first impression of the game. Players are more likely to quit when something is too hard than when something is too easy. Not saying I do, or you do, just most people do.

If any upping of difficulty is called for it should begin at 14 (when you get your travel power), grow gradually and peak in the 20s or 30s then stay at that level.

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I understand what your saying but why make different mobs if they all going to do the same thing. When I first played my first impression when I first met with the outcast was they are nothing more the hellions same skin same powers. I really thought the outcast and trolls were more of an elite group but they are not just powered up hellions and trolls. The Tsoo's where my first elite group I got to meet which was when I reached 14. I understand about not making the game so hard low levels but why make different enemies when they do the sme thing. HE said they are going to be more like hellions and skulls that was really dissappointing. Same mobs new area but same mobs no variety cant denie that hurts gameplay a little. Oh well back to the same repetitive stuff.

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why not keep the powers but tone them down... or better yet... actually have them run out of endurance like we do. it's frustrating to not be able to do anything because we are constantly stunned or held.

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They are tunning them down. Let me emphasize for those who haven't read, or haven't interepeted his post: He did not say they were REPLACING the powers with guns. He said they were "Tuning them down".


Here is his post verbatim:
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).


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