Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?
By
1stLancer,
Posted on: 2004-09-23 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The only problem I've had with the Outcasts new powers is that they have powers not equal to their level. For instance, I was attacking a Lev 17 Lead Scorcher Boss, and not only does he root me, but then he unleashes fire imps on me. I took 2 imps with me before I made a trip to the hospital. Making them harder and more interesting is one thing, but at least make the powers they have equal to their level. I mean, if I was a fire controller, I wouldn't be able to have imps until at least level 32.
I pulled up an old lvl 6 alt and ran a hollows mission. It was challenging and a blast.
a lvl 6 MA/SR and I had to use tactics to stay alive. I had to plot out my exit before attacking. It was cool.
Shame its gonna be nerfed.
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I pulled up an old lvl 6 alt and ran a hollows mission. It was challenging and a blast.
a lvl 6 MA/SR and I had to use tactics to stay alive. I had to plot out my exit before attacking. It was cool.
Shame its gonna be nerfed.
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Won't the upcoming mission difficulty slider give you the same rush? In the meantime can't you ask people to join you, not to team, but so you can scale up your mission in difficulty? This works great if you're flying solo and like a challenge. And if your outdoors and fighting, you can switch to taking yellows instead of whites.
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Virtue (Kat/SR)
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That brought me to the two door missions, and I was still at level 5, four blocks to 6.
Spawns were a mix of whites and yellows. I was forced to spend some inspirations dealing with a bad fight on the second level, but decided to go after the Eel anyway rather than run back to restock. The Eel spawned +1 and beat me. For the rematch I came back with better inspirations, but lost again because of the Hurricane -- if he'd been the Lightning Field variant I'd have won easily.
I realised this was a non-starter so I abandoned the mission for my first King's Row mission (Security Chief). This got me level 6 (and Hover). I then went back and took out the now +0 Electric Eel with no real problem. By this time it had gotten late, so I ran back to the entrance. Bedrock can wait until tomorrow.
So how is this too difficult, again? The only thing I would complain about here is Hurricane, which is a royal pain for melee ATs at every level. If Outcast are going to get it, better that the LTs have it and not the Bosses -- the LTs are easier to kill. Level 5 can solo in a Hazard Zone and people complain the game is too hard? Please.
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So you're telling me that your scrapper, THE solo class of the game, couldn't solo a mission at level 5. You were forced to go outside the mission, make a level, and come back to beat it. Even with expert inspiration use, mad tactics, and all the strategy you could muster, you couldn't complete your mission without a workaround.
I'll grant you that you did finish it solo. How many first time level 5 players, probably still trying to figure out the interface, know they can leave a boss in a mission, go make a level, get some inspirations and come back to mop up? How many of them are familiar with which powers to take at a given level so they're not completely useless at lower levels? Especially scrappers, where almost every primary powerset has a total loser power in the first three?
Now, ignoring the new players for a second. If a scrapper can't solo a mission, how do you expect another class to be able to? Or is the game now supposed to be only groups at low levels? Imagine a team of a tank, a defender, and a controller trying to tackle that mission. Nobody at that level has status defense. Add a few more LTs and minions (since the mission would scale for 3 players), and it would be a stun fest with three trips to the hospital.
The interesting part is that for the mid-level game, I find the added challenge of the +1 bosses great. My 27 Spines/Regen scrapper still solos well, and the red boss at the end is a tasty treat. However, I don't think this change scales down well.
Regarding hazard zone/door mission:
Choosing villians of appropriate difficulty, anyone can solo in most zones. Defenders soloing a group of green/greys might not be real fun, but it can be done. However, door missions are door missions. I don't choose the difficulty of the spawns in the door mission. I expect the devs to have mobs spawn that will be an appropriate challenge for my group. Some area real easy, some not. But the fact that the solo class of the game cannot solo a door mission indicates to me that something is broken.
Do you think your experience would have been fun if that was your first night in the game? Imagine being told to go to the hollows, and trying to get to your mission. If you don't even know what an agro radius is, and haven't had a chance to understand the implications of the colors of villians, how could you even make it to a mission without dying?
-Garrik
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Whether you are for the increased levels, or against it, changing it so that soloing isn't viable should not be done. Right now you can still solo missions if you want, but for a lot of classes you are going to have to blow your influence on inspirations and do a lot of running away. Something my tanker finds slightly offensive, but really has no other choice.
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See, all I'm saying is that it is not because it is too hard that the feel and diversity of a group like the Outcasts should be sacrificed. You wan't to tone them down ... fine but don't bring them back to the 1 shocker, 3 thugs (with nothing special) look. These fire/ice/earth/lightning minions are really nice.
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I don't have a problem with the increasing of difficulty of the mobs. I didn't much care for the pre-issue 2 version of the outcasts either. But there does need to be a balance.
I don't think Statesman said he was going to remove all their powers and put them back to before pre-issue 2, they will just be removing *some* of their powers.
If they just balance it a bit for the missions and then reduce the end boss mob so I don't see any more Red con bosses. I think that will be plenty.
right now, there isn't a whole lot that a lot of archtypes can do against a red con fire boss in a mission. Some will do better than others, but everyone should be able to complete it with varying degrees of difficulty and inspiration use.
Personally I do want to see the extra powers, but I also want to be able to, on average, complete my missions without taking hours to do what should be a 30 minute mission. If you want to make some missions tougher than others so that you have to be extreamly careful, fine, no problem. Just as long as they are the exception and not the average. If it becomes the average, then I'm not peter parker..I'm mary jane, and I just don't have the hair for that.
I REALLY like the new Outcast powersets, with some notable exceptions.
Charger and Crusher minions still chain stun, and yes they do... And at that level that is almost instant death because all your defenses are shutoff, and you font have the HPs to outlast it. Shockers and Bricks still chain stun. Now of course they are Lts and should be tougher, but again at that lavel chain stuns are not fun and shouldn't be as constant. Many rely heavily on toggles and defenses especially scrappers and tankers.
Then there is the biggest issue, the Lead Shockers, and Lead Bricks are entirely too overpowered for thier level. Hurricane is horribly overpowered at the level you are first encountering them as you do not have the accuracy to offset if accuracy debuff (No one does, and Insps cant help unless you burn several all at once, which at that level you only have a few slots which you need for defenses and such to survive these enemies.) and the Thundercloud does insane amounts of damage, constantly, AND it chain stunns you. Add into that the current situation where the +1 Mobs in mission bug is in place, again something I really like except for when its a bosses, to where these Lead Outcast bosses are ALWAYS Red +1 Bosses at the level you take the mission, ala Electric Eel and Bedrock, and it is just flat out nuts.
The outcasts as they are, ARE overpowered for the level you encounter them. Them having superpowers isn't the problem is the overpowering types and amounts of powers they have. Most of which horribly outlevel the players that are encountering them. It's great to have the variety, I love it, but it's not so great to have the frustration of ultimate defeat hanging over your head when you are doing it.
And I get really sick and tired of this, "You need better tactics!" comments or the "Pansy cowards wanting it easy!" comments because that just inst the case. Congradulations to you for being this steel balled baddass that can handle or survvive these encounters. There are no special tactics, or whatever to be employed that have no been employed before that most of us are used it, and fod forbid we have to go back to quasi-EQ Monk Pulling lameassness to do anything. (As some one pointed out about the Blaster sniping then running away to lead agrro back to the group....) You are not superior, you are not better, you are not teh CoH God because you do not have as much difficulty, or have been lucky on your encounters, when the fact of the matter is more people have been having BAD experiences with them than GOOD experiences with them. Even those of us who LOVE the changes in most ways, agree they are broken in others and need some work. So please, lets not tout our gratiduous bravado on how obviously superior you are, and totally forget most people are having difficulty for very legit reasons and they make up the majority. And not all of us are "pansy cowards" or lack "Tactics" or whatever, it is just genuenly hard.
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then I'm not peter parker..I'm mary jane, and I just don't have the hair for that.
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Teehee
Ok came back from test on outcast and troll changes.
For the trolls changes it was really hard to see which was what.
Trolls power really didnt change much it seems. The minions will still hit you with there melee superstrenght attacks.
Ogres still did the stone skin stone melee stone mallet powers and Tremors.
Caliban same also temp inv, they did foot stomp, the super strenght attacks, the live version did handclap I noticed but test version didnt.
One of the powers I cant recall which boss did some stone spear move basically fault.
Well the changes to the trolls werent really anything big, I actually didnt think they needed it.
The outcast changes were pretty descent really they are still gonna be tough and they differentiate from hellions and skulls big time.
Outcast torch just cast flares didnt do anything else.
Outcast chargers did charged bolts and charged brawl.
Outcast sluggers did stone fist and thats it they didnt do stone skin.
Shockers dont use O2 boost they were like before, charged brawl and Lightning bolt.
Lead Scorcher dont use blazing aura, Flash fire, or ring of fire.
I tested them quit a bit to make sure they didnt use ring of fire and flashfire. They use fireshield, fireblast and fireball.
And I read there description they are made to cast fire imps yes they still do cast fire imps . 
Lead Shocker They got rid of Tornado its been replaced with lightning field. They use charged brawl, lightning bolts, and Havoc punch not sure never used electricty manipulation could of been thunderstrike. It looks exactly like bone crusher. Oh yeah no thunder storm either.
Well this change seems great to me for those newbie players, and the outcast should still be challenging for us vets
With the +1 changes coming hopefully this arguement can go away. I just gotta wait for difficulty sliders to be implemented when my missions go back to being boring again 
Thx for the fix devs and listening to the crowd even though I dont want the missions to be easy again I can wait.
Excellent work agent Benzigami. 5 starts for you! You definatly didn't have to go through the trouble of posting that giant list and it is appreciated
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Excellent work agent Benzigami. 5 starts for you! You definatly didn't have to go through the trouble of posting that giant list and it is appreciated
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Thx
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I'm sorry at this point, I'm really starting to think if CoH will have any staying power - the catering to those of 'What? I have to consider my actions before I jump into a group of 15 MOBs and have a miniscule amout of strategy/tactics?? That's NOT herioc' crowd is starting to get to me.
Aside from the 36 scrapper I have a 14 SS/Invun Tank and a 13 Gravity/FF Controller and with only a small adjustment, they can still soso every type of MOB thery could before with all the changes (including the +1 MOB bit). My controller couldn't solo lifetap or high regen rate Bosses before and still can't but the others were doable.
The game was way to easy before; and issue 2 fixed a lot of that in mine and a lot of my friends opinions; but to see Statesman so quickly backtrack out of this and neuter the game back down doesn't make me feel good about the direction the dev team seems bent on taking CoH to.
Too easy = way baring, and I won't pay to play a game that at it's base bores me no matter how pretty the graphics are.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I'm sorry at this point, I'm really starting to think if CoH will have any staying power - the catering to those of 'What? I have to consider my actions before I jump into a group of 15 MOBs and have a miniscule amout of strategy/tactics?? That's NOT herioc' crowd is starting to get to me.
Aside from the 36 scrapper I have a 14 SS/Invun Tank and a 13 Gravity/FF Controller and with only a small adjustment, they can still soso every type of MOB thery could before with all the changes (including the +1 MOB bit). My controller couldn't solo lifetap or high regen rate Bosses before and still can't but the others were doable.
The game was way to easy before; and issue 2 fixed a lot of that in mine and a lot of my friends opinions; but to see Statesman so quickly backtrack out of this and neuter the game back down doesn't make me feel good about the direction the dev team seems bent on taking CoH to.
Too easy = way boring, and I won't pay to play a game that at it's base bores me no matter how pretty the graphics are.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I'm sorry at this point, I'm really starting to think if CoH will have any staying power - the catering to those of 'What? I have to consider my actions before I jump into a group of 15 MOBs and have a miniscule amout of strategy/tactics?? That's NOT herioc' crowd is starting to get to me.
Aside from the 36 scrapper I have a 14 SS/Invun Tank and a 13 Gravity/FF Controller and with only a small adjustment, they can still soso every type of MOB thery could before with all the changes (including the +1 MOB bit). My controller couldn't solo lifetap or high regen rate Bosses before and still can't but the others were doable.
The game was way to easy before; and issue 2 fixed a lot of that in mine and a lot of my friends opinions; but to see Statesman so quickly backtrack out of this and neuter the game back down doesn't make me feel good about the direction the dev team seems bent on taking CoH to.
Too easy = way baring, and I won't pay to play a game that at it's base bores me no matter how pretty the graphics are.
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You can't take harder enemies? Does some phantom spirit prevent you from assaulting yellows or oranges instead of whites? When street hunting YOU are in charge of your own difficulty. Now for door missions, they're adding a slider, which will help. In the meantime, you can always ask a friend, or even a stranger to join your team, not to team, but just so you can bump up the difficulty of your mission.
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With the +1 changes coming hopefully this arguement can go away. I just gotta wait for difficulty sliders to be implemented when my missions go back to being boring again
Thx for the fix devs and listening to the crowd even though I dont want the missions to be easy again I can wait.
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I gotta agree with that, I really want those sliders and am very happy the devs are putting them in. I like to solo when my friends aren't around or when I want a slower pace and I'm finding my debuffers can solo these tougher settings a lot better than my scrapper/tanker/controllers. So i'd love to be able to adjust the difficulty for my other guys.
It's not so bad getting pounded in the trenches when you have faith that there really is a light at the end.
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but your general blanket statement of good-balanced groups not dying - i assume you've never done the outcast door missions. they're ludicrous.
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Yes I have. I've done them solo and I've done them in several groups as several different archetypes. I know what I'm talking about. This morning, I will be solo'ing the Electric Eel mission with my level 10 tanker and prove nimrod wrong. If you can work together and have a good balance of archetypes with people that know how to play their damn archetype, then you can succeed.
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try it with a group of 8.
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You might do this in your D&D games but if you had a player, or a full group who had never played before wouldn't you start out easy for them? It just makes good design sense. People react much more favorably to easy than they do to hard. It's human nature.
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Nope. I keep the difficulty the same regardless of new players or not. I do make allowances however for plain stupid misstakes... but only so many of them. If they can't learn from their mistakes, they're not going to have fun playing.
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Look, if you want a really tough challenge, you can always team up with someone and have them quit and you'll get double the mobs. you can go and hunt above your level. You can do TFs with the minimum number of people. There are plenty of ways for you to challenge yourself.
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Again, why should I be forced to go out of my way to play a challenging game? Why should I be forced to play "dumb" or not use enhancements... etc, when it's much easier for you to learn to play better? Why should I have to force people to join a group, wait for me to enter the mission, and then kick them out just to get a mission that isn't a cakewalk?
I've done both Positron and Sysnape TF's solo with my energy blaster. I had to as I got sick and tired of the TF's I'd join crap out after the first couple of missions. Besides, inviting more people into the group only works on the first floor of a mission. Any other floors will spawn at your current group size when you take the elevator up the first time.
So bugging people to join your mission is pointless. It's a loophole we shouldn't have to jump through just to get a few challenging mobs. I shouldn't be forced to not do my missions because they're so boring. I really, really, really like the new mission difficulty, regardless if it's a bug or not. It makes the game fun and a challenge again.
Well here it is, my christianing Post. I originally was going to find a place to give Kudos to the Devs for their work and brilliance on Issue 2, but my attention was drawn to here. I read all through his post (ughnh!) to see where it was going and what to say for my 2 cents. So here it is (with my Kudos near the end):
I already love this game, but issue 2 just astounded me and cranked up my enjoyment a lot!--especially in the Hollows. I don't think that Kaz's insistence that the game have a uniform level of difficilty based on what level of character you are running should hold though. Being that especially since the Hollows seems to be an optional hazard zone to go into in the first place. It exponentially spices up the game for those vets out there and for even new players I would bet too. I don't think people buying games want no challenges for their buck--I mean people drop games because they are too easy and boring too you know. So I disagree with Kaz's assertation that this is fact (somewhere around page 9 I think). Nothing personal Kaz, you've just been the most outspoken and frequent "pro-dummy-down" poster here. I don't want to come across as harsh, I just disagree with many of your vital arguments.
I play this game at home and in at least 2-3 various LANs in my area, and I have ran into a lot of veteran MMO players, several of which were on the beta and dropped the game soon after. Almost unanimously these disgruntled / disinterested veteran MMO playes told me that the game was too boring and repetetive. That was the number one reason in my own experiance that people have left or weren't interested in the game after trying it. I have never heard anyone complain that it was too hard. So what I am getting at is that when I went into the Hollows the first time not only was I delighted, but a former beta player next to me(who had dropped the game out of boredom etc.) perked up and said he was now thinking of reactivating his account! His interest only peaked more as I related many of the neato things going on since Version 2. But it was my playing in the Hollows that really got his attention.
Does there need to be some tweaking? perhaps. But only by a hair if you ask me. A good lot of the previous posters are able to go into the specifics, and I was fairly most resposive to the peope who mentioned the Boss Powers and the spawn levels of the indoor missions (is there rally a slider coming? neato!). However I wouldn't mind if it stayed exactly the way it is now myself, and yes I've died there a lot (early on, learning curve), but then I've had glorious victories there too, all the more glorious because of the challenge.
For example, my last team experience there is a good illustration. Taking the leadership of what I percieved to be a mostly green group of players (who were undaunted from having gotten licked a few times before I got there), I gave pointers and analysis and direction according to whoever we had in the group at the time and we only had 2 "defeats" over the course of 3 indoor missions after that (Outcast missions in the Hollows). People made comments as to the difference it made having teamwork--the difference in effectivenes and fun they were having, all to the positive.
None of this would have been possible if we were just "grinding" through a bunch of Hellions in Perez Park I argue! So imho, having a "tougher," and "optional," hazard zone from level 5-12 is not only a good thing but a great boon to the game, a HUGE one.
Someone earlier made suggestions as to how to make it more visible to players that this zone and it's contact (primary contact?) Wilcott was totally optional. I like this idea, though I might suggest that it be made more visible to players of level 5-12 or something, through their interactions that the zone get a "reputation." Oh sure other players might offer their opinions of the Zone, but i think that if the contacts who introduced Wilcott somehow alluded to the difficulty in the Hollows, all would be fair. You do read what your contacts are saying don't you folks? I bet that the really brand new players are!
So in conclusion, I would say to Statesman: Please don't hurt my Outcasts too much!
and: Holy cow what a great game! Incredible! It's my first MMO (tho I've seen a ton of them and know tons of other players who play them--I was never even remotely interested in them till CoH).
Thanks for the great game and thanks for Issue 2 and thanks for the Hollows!
PS: to Kaz, you mentioned that people could go to higher conned mobs for more challenge, but one of themost brillliant thing I admired about version 2 was that the color of themobs (cons) more matched the idea of basic difficulty. Also, in perusing the forums it's been my experience that when people are bragging about what their character could do they only ever mentioned the "conning" of what they were facing with their builds. So that told me that to many of these players it didn't matter what type of villain they were facing, or where they were, it was all the same thing (basically faceless villains, and "who-cares-where" in the game). . . I would think seeing dialogue refined and respectful of the villains and areas in the game to indicate that there is variety in the challenges faced, instead of just one big homogenized grind for levels. I think this thread in all it's glory is a testament that the former is no longer the case. At least that is how I view it. And thank you for your constant attention to it 
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Again, why should I be forced to go out of my way to play a challenging game? Why should I be forced to play "dumb" or not use enhancements... etc, when it's much easier for you cowards to learn to play better? Why should I have to force people to join a group, wait for me to enter the mission, and then kick them out just to get a mission that isn't a cakewalk?
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You know that's about 3rd personal attack you've made and I'm tired of it. I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE. Yet, you are still attacking, this time calling me, and others "cowards".
You now have the privilege of being the first on my ignore list. LEARN HOW TO ARGUE WITHOUT ATTACKING/INSULTING PEOPLE!!! I'm not thin skinned, I just refuse to argue with someone who resorts to name calling. I got over that after the 6th grade!
btw - personal attacks are a violation of the board guidelines and you are being reported. This has happened too many times now to be overlooked.
I get what your saying aura but alot of different people play this game. When you play your typical mmporg people know what they gonna get. Alot of content, tough missions, the need of grouping which is basically what some casual players call forced grouping. COH caters to all types which why makes it so special.
There are 8,9,10 year olds that play this game, there are peopel who love this game but hardly have time to play it, people who hates challenges, and power gamer like myself. When you cater to so many, some parts of the game gets dumbed down like the difficulty. Hopefully mission difficulty slider helps cater this problem I am having a blast playing all my alts with all those yellow mobs and red boses running around. And I hope Cryptic keeps this in mind.
being level 10 and doing this mission is way different then doing it at level 6. that is 2 more powers plus 4 more enchament slots and possably a new option to attack electric el.
But at level 6 there is only so many things i can do. also just gettng there is a son of a gun when you are lower and how about the mobs running behind walls off the map were i cant target them but they can hit me.
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But at level 6 there is only so many things i can do. also just gettng there is a son of a gun when you are lower and how about the mobs running behind walls off the map were i cant target them but they can hit me.
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I did the Electric Eel mission when I was level 6, as a bubble defender. I beat Bedrock at level 7, but I'd leveled up during that mission, so he was a tad bit easier since he was orange instead of red. I didn't go running for any new inspirations however. Didn't use the elevator. Just a lot of hit-n-run and making sure Bedrock wasn't on his feet but for a moment or two. You gotta figure out what the strength of your archtype is and what it's weaknesses are and use inspriations to overcome those weaknesses. Simple as that.
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Again, why should I be forced to go out of my way to play a challenging game? Why should I be forced to play "dumb" or not use enhancements... etc, when it's much easier for you cowards to learn to play better? Why should I have to force people to join a group, wait for me to enter the mission, and then kick them out just to get a mission that isn't a cakewalk?
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You know that's about 3rd personal attack you've made and I'm tired of it. I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE. Yet, you are still attacking, this time calling me, and others "cowards".
You now have the privilege of being the first on my ignore list. LEARN HOW TO ARGUE WITHOUT ATTACKING/INSULTING PEOPLE!!! I'm not thin skinned, I just refuse to argue with someone who resorts to name calling. I got over that after the 6th grade!
btw - personal attacks are a violation of the board guidelines and you are being reported. This has happened too many times now to be overlooked.
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I agree Kazarak
LOL gotta love ignore not directed to you miss A I just did it on this annoying poster who doesnt know how to read and comprehend a post that backs his own arguements. Simpleton.
Hello Missaurora seeing as I am the original poster I am assuming you are calling me a coward as well. First thing irl I was in the marines so I was willing to die for your freedom I am not a coward.
second thing if you actually read the post I mainly complained about it being to hard for level 6 when I received the mission, but also about the mobs running into walls were I can not attack them.
BTW measuring your toughness by a video game? Maybe you need to get out more?
ps if i was not intended ignore above comment and i tried everythng i could think of electric el just murdered me i will try again
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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Dare I say, please no.
I hate making alts simply because 20+ levels of generic thugs with knives, sledgehammers, and machine guns make me want to gouge my eyes out. Fighting superpowered enemies is quite the rush, and at least no one in my SG has had any problems except when the missions spawn way too high.