Are the Developers looking into fixing Hollows?
By
1stLancer,
Posted on: 2004-09-23 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There is nothing wrong with the Hollows. The mobs get progressively harder as you move into the zone. Up front its 7, 8 9 and 10s no different than PP and the groups are smaller than PP. I have run 2 of my same level alts through that zone since launch and had no problems with it. Are you perhaps refering to missions generated in Hollows? Then I can see where the problem might lie but street trash was not all that big a deal to me. Maybe its people unused to dealing with Trolls and Outcasts and tactics need to be adjusted.
Please clarify exactly what it is you find more difficult about Hollows vs Kings Row vs PP so I can see your perspective.
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sorry about that I was refering to door missions. Seems easier solo then with a team. but I could not kill red boss 5 times 2 of which i had full insperations. I love a good challange but as hard as it is just getting to mission then dieing all them times at mission is just silly.
ps these devs still are the best ever though
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I agree with both Godling and Rippar.
I like a challenge but the bosses and number of boss 'guards' are too tough for the level of mission. Just tonight I died four times trying to do the Eel mission. In this mission two of the 'roamer' groups had two healing shockers in it with hurricane going... in other words they would disorient me or knock me down and heal everyone I hurt.. including the other shocker. What happened twice? Well, I get stunned and they all unload on me killing me before I can even use one power. Tactics? Their aggro was all connected. I pulled one that wandered far from their group but on the first punch, they all came running at me. Apparently only a controller can separate them but I'm not going to waste my limited online play waiting for a controller to happen by who wants to help me.
From reading this and doing the missions, the Hollows are apparently for groups who already know how to play.. ie powergamer alts who meet together often enough to know each others styles because there's no way new players would know their powers that well. Clarification: I'm a newish player and I'm still trying to learn what the different powers do.
I disagree with making the Outcasts boring like Skulls or Hellions. Let them keep their elemental powers but, like mentioned, tone their damage down and/or tone down their chance to hit with Hurricane, thunderpunch, etc.... errr.. I'm mainly talking about the bosses and lt.'s. The rest are just fine.
It just seems more like luck to try to get through the misison. By luck I mean if you're lucky enough not to get stunned, disoriented, held, or knocked down. Once you're down, get ready to click the go to hospital button.
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I can see your point here. A supergroup friend of mine and I took our freshly-dinged level 6 MA/Regen scrappers into the Hollows after a couple warm-up missions to get the hang of our new abilities. Like most of our SG, we've been playing together since beta, so we're pretty comfortable knowing what the other will do. One thing we discovered pretty quickly was that fights went much better if we both attacked the same guy. This is different from before and, in my opinion, an improvement since it makes the game more challenging.
However, in some encounters, our success was entirely dependent upon luck. We were concentrating entirely on Outcasts, although some groups were mixed with Trolls. A couple of groups were no problem and we polished them off fairly easily. In a couple of fights we fell victim to chain stuns (specifically earthquake) and died. Not much you can do while flopping around like a fish and eight guys are beating on you. Although we knew this going in, two scrappers aren't an ideal combo for dealing with the groups in the Hollows, and when we go back we'll be taking ranged back-up. But debt at that level is a mere pittance, so I consider it a lesson well worth paying for.
Inspirations play a much greater role post-Issue 2, but at level 6 you quickly run out and when stunned you can't use the ones you have. Once I hit level 7, I'll have to put the 2 slots into Hasten for recharge enhancers, then swap out my recharge/accuracy enhancements in my attacks and put in damage. This will make my personal game more difficult, as I am going to be continually broke.
Before Issue 2 I would just slot whatever drops I got and wait to buy anything until I hit 13, when level 15 DOs became available. That's changed, and probably for the better, but I'll have to wait and see. I don't think toning the Hollows villains down is really necessary for the wandering groups, since Perez is a good alternative. Definitely look at the door missions, though, since they seem to be randomly difficult.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Alrighty. Time to throw my opinion into the mass that is this thread.
I enjoy the new Outcasts. They are loads of fun to fight, and I love that even the minions have superpowers. I love the post-Issue 2 changes that they have made, making sure that anything post-Skull/Hellion has unique powers that make the game interesting. (Now if they'd only do something about the Warriors and the Family, we'd be in business...)
That said, I don't mind if the difficulty of the mobs is decreased. Keep in mind that the difficulty of this game is based solely on the discretion of the player. If you think the new, toned-down version of the Outcasts/Trolls is too weak for your tastes, then kick it up a level or two. I can guarantee that toned-down +2s will be much more difficult than the even cons you're fighting now.
The only exception to this, of course, is indoor missions. You can't pick and choose your mission difficulty... yet. Wait for the slider, people. It's coming. Not right now, but it's coming.
RPGs are that special brand of game that appeal to those who want challenges AND those who want to sail through the game, because you can choose your own difficulty. Catering to the less skilled players only means that the skilled ones get xp faster... you're not about to go complaining about that, are you? 
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"this challenge is not hard enough, make it harder" is not whining . . . it is the anithesis of whining.
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Well, this is a game where you're telling several people that their fun really is less important than your fun. It's not the Shao Lin Temple, nor is it Navy Seal training.
I agree with Kazarek, though. There's definitely a lot of whining to keep the game hard. I'm not sure how anyone could call what most of the complaints have been anything else.
Also, there's been mockery, derision, and condescension from those who want the game to remain harder, with comments about how people need to learn to play the game properly, and how they should go team with a controller, and other pointless replies. And, honestly, you've participated ("amused by shiny objects crowd" comes to mind) in all of it - and I'm somewhat sympathetic to what you're looking for, I just think you're looking for it in the wrong part of the game.
Fundamentally, when I'm playing low level characters, I want to get them to Talos/IP. The current setup puts obstacles in that path. I want the game once I get to Talos/IP to be more challenging. I don't want the part of the game that I've played through at least a dozen times to be hard enough that it takes me that much longer to get through it. I also don't like the idea of new players going into door missions at second level and getting pounded by two patrols of two yellow minions and an orange lt. each because they don't yet know their character or the game well enough to handle that fight...especially if playing a controller, blaster, or defender.
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Just wanted to say there are way more whining to make the game easier. I dont want to see the outcast and hollows become another repetitive perez park.
If outcast start shooting useless machine guns instead of thier elemental powers that is gonna suck. Just gonna be the same old useless mobs they were before just in a different zone. Coh needs to make a good first impression for new players right. Repetitiveness wont help, I say to please everyone dumb down the outcast but make them more unique. Not idiots that shoot machine guns that just debuffs defense. They need to be a step up from hellions and skulls not the same. Right now I rather fight a lead scorcher then a bone daddy anyday. Those that seem right to you.
Sincerly, Trolls and outcast are two time the fun of skulls and hellions.
Please keep the diversity in Jack, they are not TOO difficult, they are just challenging....
Take care,
Yes, I agree with 1stLancer. I'm going to repeat an arguement I made earlier in the thread since no one can apparently counter, or it's been missed.
POINT 1: People, by arguing against the change you're arguing to get less XP. Let me make this clear....
BEFORE THE FIX
A. To get a challenge, skilled players take a group of whites. Good challenge, moderate xp.
B. Less skilled players take a group of greens/blues. Medium/lite challenge, poor xp.
AFTER THE FIX:
A. To get a challenge, skilled players take a group of yellows/oranges, good/great xp.
B. Less skilled players take whites. Moderate xp.
YOU STILL GET A CHALLENGE POST FIX AND YOU GET MORE XP. Why is this so hard to understand? Plus the players less skilled than you get more xp because they can take whites. Both sides win. What's wrong with this? You want to lose?
POINT 2: It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun. These are the levels that players will forge their first impressions of the game. These are also the levels when people are learning how to best use their power, and play the game.
It's a fact of life that most people will quit something FAR, FAR more quickly if a task is too hard, than if it's too easy.
Now, an arguement definatly needs be made about making the later levels more challenging. I say gradually tune up the difficulty at level 14 (or possibly 12). Keep increasing the difficulty until the 20's or 30's then keep it at a challenging level.
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If outcast start shooting useless machine guns instead of thier elemental powers that is gonna suck. Just gonna be the same old useless mobs they were before just in a different zone. Coh needs to make a good first impression for new players right. Repetitiveness wont help, I say to please everyone dumb down the outcast but make them more unique. Not idiots that shoot machine guns that just debuffs defense. They need to be a step up from hellions and skulls not the same. Right now I rather fight a lead scorcher then a bone daddy anyday. Those that seem right to you.
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To this I say, if UFOs abducted Statesman and turned him into their pawn, then forced him to replace enemies in the game with Teletubbies it will definatly suck.
What's the point of useless speculation? He didn't say the powers were being replaced with guns. He simply used guns as a comparison. He said they were being tunned down and some removed. We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.
Lets not start proactively complaining about something that might not even come true. Hold fire until you can see the target you're shooting at...
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If outcast start shooting useless machine guns instead of thier elemental powers that is gonna suck. Just gonna be the same old useless mobs they were before just in a different zone. Coh needs to make a good first impression for new players right. Repetitiveness wont help, I say to please everyone dumb down the outcast but make them more unique. Not idiots that shoot machine guns that just debuffs defense. They need to be a step up from hellions and skulls not the same. Right now I rather fight a lead scorcher then a bone daddy anyday. Those that seem right to you.
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To this I say, if UFOs abducted Statesman and turned him into their pawn, then forced him to replace enemies in the game with Teletubbies it will definatly suck.
What's the point of useless speculation? He didn't say the powers were being replaced with guns. He simply used guns as a comparison. He said they were being tunned down and some removed. We don't know yet which powers are being removed. It could be a bad guy has Flares, and Fire Bolt and Flares is being removed. It could be they have unseen powers such as Stamina and they are being removed.
Lets not start proactively complaining about something that might not even come true. Hold fire until you can see the target you're shooting at...
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I understand what you say completely but my post was a response to someone. 
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I understand what you say completely but my post was a response to someone.
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Sorry to have directed my post at you. I meant for it to be more directed towards an audience, it just made for a convienant launching point.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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Why dont you guys up the exp for them instead? Why does every level X minion/lt/whatever have to be worth the same exp? Prisoners are weaker, worth less exp, family lts vs devouring earth lts... make the dev earth worth more exp. Have different tiers based on difficulty. If people wanna train on harder factions within their level range, reward them with more exp.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I have to agree with the sentiments of those that thought making the outcasts and trolls different than the vanilla Skulls/Hellions was a great thing. Please don't take the powers away from them (well, maybe Hurricane *grin*)
In my experience so far, it seems that, for many people, its just not sinking in that the Hollows is a Hazard Zone. Its the same thing that, in the past, happened with Perez. The first time someone encounters Perez Park, they don't know what to make of a Hazard Zone. Then they end up face-down on the sidewalk because they were used to small groups of mobs, not groups of 10 mobs.
It is a Hazard Zone, it should be, well, Hazardous!
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I have to agree with the sentiments of those that thought making the outcasts and trolls different than the vanilla Skulls/Hellions was a great thing. Please don't take the powers away from them (well, maybe Hurricane *grin*)
In my experience so far, it seems that, for many people, its just not sinking in that the Hollows is a Hazard Zone. Its the same thing that, in the past, happened with Perez. The first time someone encounters Perez Park, they don't know what to make of a Hazard Zone. Then they end up face-down on the sidewalk because they were used to small groups of mobs, not groups of 10 mobs.
It is a Hazard Zone, it should be, well, Hazardous!
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Except that these same enemies spawn in Steel Canyon and Skyway City.
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I like the new outcasts/trolls. They are a major pain to fight and a serious challenge. My only thought is maybe they need to spawn in slightly smaller numbers. I really like the fact that they are truly the next step up from Skulls/Hellions. They force a whole different strategy on your combat. I was running some of the Hollows missions with my mind controller last night and found myself infinitely more useful. Stunning Bricks and Shockers to make them lower their toggles was very nice.
Currently they are being spawned as if they were skulls/hellions, so the quantities are a little high. That's where the real problem comes since they have a strong variety of attack types. If you reduce the numbers by 20% or so I think it will be a nice balanced tough and challenging spawn group.
Also the Outcast Chargers might stun a little too often. They seem to hit with a short duration stun about 25% of the time.
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. -Mitch Ratliffe, Technology Review, April, 1992
Anoteher thing about the Hollows is the spawns going into walls, Allot!!
Also I generally play a scrapper being a melee person those spawns are a pain as I cant single them out. Even with a decent group I died allot.
Now I have a blaster there were I can hover and hit from a distance it is very very different.
Oh my God..Noooooo! Don't do it Statesman! The Hollows is the best zone in the game for low levels, its got great zone design and it is the most challenging. It is difficult but not impossible at all. I like it soo much better than Perez Park. I just ran a scrapper through there soloing many, not all, of my missions and it was a blast.
Now I wouldn't recommend going in there at 5, thats too low because the lowest mobs you'll find are of equal level to you, and most you run across will be much higher. I started there around level 8. However, in no way do the Trolls and Outcast need to be downgraded to Skulls and Hellions level. Thats the way they used to be, you could't tell them apart. Boooring and uninteresting.
Please do not give into the whiners. The Hollows is an alternative to the Perez Park route and yes its more challenging. However, you don't have to do it. The contacts you get there all stay in there and don't branch out. So you can skip the whole thing if its just too hard for you. Please, just get in a group and go to it.
Also who really cares if you die at such low levels, your debt is gone in like 2 fights. Oh no that 250 debt is going to take so long to work off. 
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Except that these same enemies spawn in Steel Canyon and Skyway City.
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Yeah, but not in Hazard-Zone sized groups.
Thx for the reply I am checking out test server to check on outcast and troll changes will post. Dont forget Lost spawn in KR and Skyway to and they appear in perez
The Hollows really is one scary place, but it is a hazard zone, and I feel that justifies it. Hazard zones should not be soloable unless you're 2-3 levels above the mobs you're fighting, in my opinion. In other words, I like it scarey. Running through the hollows at mid-level for the zone feels like running through a war zone. You have to pay attention, you have to be on your toes, in a phrase, you have to actively playing... put away the snacks, turn off the TV, and put down the phone. You're in a hazard zone!
That's how it should be...
Vega
Hey statesman may I suggest maybe some of those new mobs those cool volcano looking villans appear in Hollows in the proper place of course if they do appear there NM I havent seen one yet just a suggestion . One thing about perez is the variety of villans. You got hellions, skulls, vahlz, Hydra, CLocks, and Lost.
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The Hollows really is one scary place, but it is a hazard zone, and I feel that justifies it. Hazard zones should not be soloable unless you're 2-3 levels above the mobs you're fighting, in my opinion. In other words, I like it scarey. Running through the hollows at mid-level for the zone feels like running through a war zone. You have to pay attention, you have to be on your toes, in a phrase, you have to actively playing... put away the snacks, turn off the TV, and put down the phone. You're in a hazard zone!
That's how it should be...
Vega
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Who said they should be solo'd?
Aside from that, yeah I agree you have to be good and up to the challenge. Which is exactly why it must be nerfed. If this was something that was level 12 and up, I think that'd be great. But it's level 5 and up. Lets not forget, not every player is a CoH veteran. Some are new and might find the challenge to be too imitidating or frustrating. As I've said before, people in general are more prone to quit something they perceive as being too difficult, than too easy. Players should have an easy time at the low levels. We don't want someones first impressions of the game be that it's intimidating and frustrating...
Pre 12 or 14 levels should be easy
12 to 14 a little harder
14 to 16 harder
16 to 18 harder
...
you get the point. The difficulty should scale up starting at either 12 or 14 until it reaches a challenging level in the 20's. NOT start out hard in the 5s...
I'm suprised to see so much about the trolls and outcasts in the hollows and no mention of the real bad boys of the zone. Have you people not run into the Pumicites and Magmites yet? Twice as fast as regular mobs, with nasty attacks (especially the Magmites, that lava hold is awful!) these guys are waaay worse than the other mobs in the zone. And don't even get me started on the Cavern of Transcendance.
The only other complaint I have about the Hollows is the defeat Atta and his Guards mission. Somebody went crazy with the troll button on that one, and Atta is a bit too uber for a level 14 boss.
Cool nm they do apper in Hollows gonna see if I could find some
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Statesman, maybe you should just change the introduction to Lt. D.W. "mission" into just your typical run of the mill "introduction" to avoid this confusion . . . which leads to more whining . . . which leads to you dumbing down even mroe of the game . . . which leads to very boring game play . . .
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I think this is a great idea, I too was a little confused about that mission. I talked to the contact then tried the mission he gave me. Once I failed it, I was going back to my pther contact to buy some ins, to see that I had another mission.
Statesman,
Please don't adjust the Hollows. The zone is JUST fine teh way it is. Even the occasional large trains pulled to eth zone entrance is not overly bothersome (if you need to go afk, please leave...or adn take helaing aura off auto-activete eh folks).
I likely roll more new characters than anyone who plays. While there is great difficulty soloing in the Hollows at lvl 5-7 with most AT's, its not impossible, and certainly not MUCH harder than trying to do the 'Kill 10 COT in PP" at lvl 7.
That being said, I have run all AT"s, with most power sets in The Hollows, and a 5-8 member lvl 5 group can do quite well, and even lvl rather rapidly if you all watch each others backs and know your yous and your groups limitations. Obviously with strangers it is likely you will have a few trips to the Hospital under your belt before you learn how everbody in the group works. Also, new people to teh game (and more to the point this TYPE of game) will also have a harder time, especially with bosses.
If your new, or just want a tip, here is mine:
make sure your low lvl group has at LEAST one guy who can heal, 2-3 folks with a heal ability is better, but 1-2 is usually fine. For Noobies I VERY MUCH reccomend taht you get at east 2 people with a HOLD or STUN ability (that is make sure they match, 2 holds, 2 stuns..not one guy with stun, one with hold) and have the 2 coordinate to hit teh BOSS or LT at the same time. A single stun or hold is unlikly to shut down a boss at thsi lvl, and some LT's are tuff to stop as well, but being hit by the same powereffect form 2 sources stacks and will shut him down...length of time he is stopped is another matter. The type of tank or scrapper you take is nto REAL important, at this lvl they all work well, but I personally find that Super reflex scrapper lasts longer (HP-wise) but runs out of END faster. My opinion on blasters is not relevent today. I have been in a melee frame of mind for a month now, haveing done blasters to death the last few months.
Lastly, healing powers aside.....always try and find a defender with Force field, esp if he takes manuevers at lvl 6. If you do nto fight too far over your head you may not even need a healer, and should lvl VERY fast.
The last group I was in, on virtue (I usually play on VOctory) had the following guys types
Defender with FF and manuevers, lvl6
Defender with EMpathy lvl 6
Tanker Fire/Fire, lvl 5
Tanker Fire/Fire, lvl 6
COntroller Stone/empathy(?) lvl 5 or 6
and a pair of elec/?? blasters lvl 5 (these guys were brotehrs, and seemed to knwo the tanks)
This was our main group, and I am pretty sure (forgotto time it) but we were all lvl 8 when we finished, which was in less tahn 3 hours.....only lead shockers and the doors missions gave us any real problem....well except for that triple group pull we had...a few time hehe..sorry guys.
anyway, the zone is fine, teh developers rock, now I am off to make another idea toon trying out storm summoning.
See ya,
Dr. P
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We'll also be tuning down Trolls and Outcasts even more - to make them like Skulls and Hellions (fewer powers, etc.).
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I don't mind them being a bit easier, but I love the shift over to them having elemental powers. I'd hate to see that go away.
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