Linea_Alba

DDD, better controller than many controllers. At least until you start arguing the semantics of what "control", "many", "some" and other words mean. Then 137 pages later you're so confused you just don't care anymore.

I'd much rather anything that helps both offense and defense. Anything that rationalizes to make us better healers for not doing our job is still chasing the wrong tire.

<QR, but edited>

I have a Storm Tank, and a Kinetics Scrapper.

Then there's the Emp/Sonic Scrapper Pair (But they have to always play in Pairs)

And the Radiation Emission Scrapper, and a Friends Radiation Emission Tank (but he has 23-30 defense all without the rad toggles, scrapper defense before the debuff toggles, and tank defense after.)

FF was already mentioned.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure the buffs were noticeable, I no longer have a continuous attack chain ... better find some more recharge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second that. Not that it bothers me really, I just have to remember to stand closer to the Rad during AM.

Reference Build Stolen from Elsewhere on the forums and should not be considered any kind of endorsement of this particular build:
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Soft Capped Defense, or almost softcapped depending on Phalanx Settings and Allies. The Addition of a PvP Global Defense IO would ensure softcapping if one feels it's needed.
50%+ Resist S/L
25%+ Resist E/N/F/C/T
00% Resist P
+54% HP (similar to resist, but not identical)

Half the Resist and HP Bonus numbers when OWtS crashes.

Still very respectable performance even without OWtS.

Personally I'm fond of both SD and WP, each for it's own reasons. However, I still play regen mostly more from concept and attachment to the character than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
...Here's a quick tip. BLAZE... <do some other stuff> ... BLAZE... <do some other stuff>... BLAZE...

[/ QUOTE ]

*laughs* I was thinking the same thing.

I use a perl script and mids for the input data on average damage, recharge, etc. I'll give anyone a copy that wants one, just PM me. But to say it's not for public consumption would be an understatement.

Yes, but you'll be sucking wind in 60 seconds without external endurance buffs. Moderate yourself a bit and you should be able to sustain something in the 165 dps range indefinitely.

Average Developer AVs regen 95 hps and Rikti Pylons 135 hps, soloing either should be possible. Custom AE MA AVs vary significantly, this does not apply to Custom Critters, some of which may be unkillable with some 8 man teams. It varies by Custom Critter and Team.

I consider any build with 135 to 165 dps after all adjustments to be more than adequate for the average team. After that point, I tend to put more resources into boosting the rest of the team to that same offensive level.

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AFAIK, it's a matter of 1-2 clock intervals (.132 - .264 seconds).

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*shocked* REALLY ?!? I always thought weapon redraw felt more like about 1 second !!! I already discount 0.200 between every attack, if redraw only adds the same 0.200 average, then that's practically nothing. If I'd ever thought it was that small I'd have just (almost) ignored it.

That's only in the range of 10-15 dps (5%) reduction, not the 35-45 dps (10% to 20%) I would have assumed. That really is SIGNIFICANTLY less than I ever suspected.

[ QUOTE ]
FU>Lunge>Strike>Dominate with 3.69 recharge

[/ QUOTE ]

That should be 200+ dps @ 4.52 EPS not counting the stacking of FU, but also not counting the delays due to redraw. I'd say that's well worth the switching of slots. The only thing I can't say is how much the redraw will hurt, but If you can maintain 165+ after redraw that's still very nice. (I estimated 165 after redraw, but that's as much a WAG as not.)

Note the script chose: Strike, Follow, Lunge, Dominate




IF anyone can tell me what the re-draw time is, and what the reduction on the next attack is, if that reduction even still applies, I'd love to hear it.

Given:
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

My script generates:
Keoie_Star_Delta,0,1,1,1,192,47.42, 4.05,23183,489,120.81,[90], Strike , Lunge ,*Psy Wai, Strike , Swipe , Lunge , Dominat, Subdue , Strike , Swipe , Lunge , Dominat, Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Dominat, Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Dominat,*Psy Wai, Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike , Lunge , Swipe , Subdue , Strike ,

In practice I tend to use the following to minimize redraw: Swipe, strike, Lunge, Swipe ... Dominate, Subdue ... repeat.
Weapon Redraw is the main obstacle in hybrid builds. If I had follow-up I could simply us that in the above chain and very likely have an all melee no-gap chain. It might be close here or there, but should work. However, I like my ranged options as well as the ease with which I can double-stack both hold and immobilize.

For 192 dps @ 4.05 EPS with a recovery of 3.54 EPS and a toggle cost of 0.91 EPS given a sum of -1.41 EPS and a burn time of 70 seconds. Not long enough to kill an AV. However, given AVs only need 95 DPS to kill, you can slow that attack rate down a bit, and/or add endurance accolades and/or blues and fight nearly indefinitely at 135-165 dps. This translates to the capability of soloing a pylon. Not using the nuke as the script did would also be beneficial, the program simply tries to spike damage as much as possible, the player should be more intelligent.

Now you post a build. Time to redo everything. bleh.

Ok, re-run given the above posted build. First thing I notice is no-immoblize, and that worries me, immobilize is often critical to AV fights. Nothing is worse than trying to chase down a chicken with it's head cut off that regenerates 95 hps.


The script doesn't handle follow-up and aim appropriately, but the player can insert them as appropriate.

Fortunata_Justice,0,1,1,1,186,40.45, 4.59,22371,553,120.57,[99], Strike , Lunge ,*Psy Wai, Strike , Dominat, Lunge , Follow , Strike , Dominat, Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike , Dominat, Follow , Lunge , Strike ,*Psy Wai, Dominat, Strike , Lunge , Dominat, Follow , Strike , Dominat,

For 185 to 210 dps @ 4.59 EPS with a recovery of 3.42 EPS and a toggle cost of 0.65 EPS given a sum of -1.82 EPS and a burn time of 55 seconds. Not nearly long enough to kill an AV. However, again, you can moderate the performance to conserve endurance and still meet the benchmark for soloing a pylon.

It should likely be noted that weapon redraw will involuntarily cause the moderation of damage neccesary to bring the EPS in line with indefinite fighting. Weapon redraw is one of those things I've never wholly gotten a handle on as far as duration and effects. It's also probably gonna be the biggest obstacle to a build that doesn't stay in either ranged or melee mode long enough, you could easily half your dps by constant redraw. I try to look for chains that minimize redraw, but I'm not sure what that would be for this build.

Given some actual build summaries:

Night Widow: 215 ST/400 AoE DPS, 4.25 EPS, Soft Capped Defense, Massive Defense Elude or Vengeance, even more Massive with Elude and Vengeance. Aid Self.

Fortunata: 190 ST/250-400 AoE DPS, 4.05EPS, Softcapped Defense, Massive Defense with Vengeance. In addition they have many utility and control powers. Aid Self.

(note soldiers debuffs multiply not only their personal damage, but the damage of the team as a whole. They pay for this multiplication by having lower defense and being more difficult to soft-cap)

Bane: 195 ST/450 AoE DPS, 3.53 EPS, Barely Soft Capped Defense if using every trick in the book, +30% Health, Substantial Debuffs using VG, Surveillance, and Achilles. Aid Self.

Huntsman: 165 ST/450-550 AoE DPS, 2.89 EPS, Soft Capped Defense using several IOs, only slightly easier than Bane to soft-cap (but easier to soft-cap none-the-less), +30% Health, Substantial Debuffs using VG, Surveillance, and Achilles. Aid Self.

(note: 10% of the health bonus for the crab and huntsman comes from IO sets used in the above reference builds.)

Crab: 125 ST/700-800+ AoE DPS, 3.25 EPS, can be softcapped with between 1 and 2 small lucks depending on build and DPS focus. +60% Health, +40% resists, does NOT have Aid Self. (aid self could be added but at a sacrifice to either defense or DPS)

It should be noted, any perceived weakness for the crabs is very quickly overcome when the crabs duo with any other veat. When paired with any other veat, crabs become massive AoE Killing Machines and still retain enough ST dps to take out AVs.

It's all about which type of DPS, Defense, and at what EPS cost. Night Widows are the most self contained, bringing the least amount of group multiplication. Fortunatas sacrifice some of that independance for group multiplication via control. Solidiers in each form sacrifice even more independance in order to bring additional AoE and Debuffs that further multiply team damage, not self-only damage. Soldiers also on average have an 0.65 to 1.00 EPS endurance advantage over widows/forts in endurance costs. That endurance can then either be saved, or used for pool:leadership powers to further multiply team performance instead of self-only performance.

That sounds so much like my thugs/dark it's Eerie.

as I recall -special is seldom if ever resisted, it's most often an exception to the rule.

Correct.

Resist Resists Resistance Debuffs. <insert math theory> The end result is that no regardless of resistance level, a 50% resistance debuff always increases your total damage by 50%. Even if you're fighting something with 94% resistance and only doing 6 damage with an attack that would normally do 100 damage, after a 50% resistance debuff, you'll then be doing 9 damage or 50% more damage than before the debuff.

+damage enhancement buffs/debuffs are typically only half or less effective. a "50% positive enhancement buff" will raise your damage enhancement (assuming a slotted power) from 195% to 245% of base damage. In psuedo-mathspeak it means: B=Base Damage; 1.95B + 0.50B = 2.45B; 2.45B/1.95B = 2.45/1.95 = 1.26 = 26% more damage granted by a "50% Damage Enhancement Buff"

yay for confusing.

[ QUOTE ]
...They only have a 30% or so chance ....

[/ QUOTE ]

Fighting against Robot MMs, some battles I'd see stacked -regen, other entire battles ZERO -regen at all. That inconsistency will translate over to AVs. The average MM should be able to break near even vs an AVs 95 hps regen. So as long as you can keep the -regen on there more often than not, you'll eventually win. However, you really want to win in less than 10 minutes, and to do that I personally would think you would want more consistent -regen than what the A-bot does alone.

Nice Pointy Things.

Ancient But Useful:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1

Even more Ancient but Useful:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....rue#Post6210527

From that I would add that you can set your Bruiser and Enforcers as Aggressive Goto and send them to just the other side of a spawn. The enforcers keep the defense of the bruiser up while you ease in close to use DN, Fear, etc with the minions in body-guard. I really only use that tactic when I'm worried about getting mezzed, otherwise I just tankermind the alpha if there even is an alpha given all the dark debuffs.

You should be able to adapt the below reference builds (stolen from various places on these forums) to your own sets and needs.

Reference Build A:
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Reference Build B:
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Reference Build C:
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

[ QUOTE ]
...Another question : is this kind of performance specific to your Fire/Traps, or do you think your Rad/Son or Fire/Therm could achieve similar results ?...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think any /traps.
1) Leverage the FFG and defense bonuses to soft-cap ranged (or at least soft cap with 1 small purple)
2) add stacking immobilize and/or hover
3) then top off with aid self and double stacked triage.
4) add in PGT -regen, you can substantially lower -regen, at which point you slowly whittle them down. As I recall it lowers even con level 50 AVs from 95 hps regen to 40 hps regen. This should apply for 25 to 40 seconds, making it possible to maintain all the time, if not potentially double stack some. (Edit: fixed)
5) multiply and leverage mortars double stacked -resistance
6) I'd advise enough offense to get the job done in the 10 minute range, so you can leverage inspirations as well.

Rad Blast/Sonic Bubbles ? Eh, I won't say it's impossible, but only because when you say that it's impossible then someone will prove you wrong. However, I personally don't see a build that would be overly efficient at it.

I don't see an overly efficient build for Fire Blast/Thermal Rad for this task either. Not saying it's impossible, I just don't see it.

Sonic Blast/Radiation Emmission - Absolutely possible and proven.

Fire Blast/Radiation Emmission - Would also be very possible.

Traps defense is easier to soft-cap with the FFG, and doesn't rely on toggle debuffs. Facing level 50 AVs this is less of an issue than Facing Level 54 AVs. The 50's are bad enough for resisting debuffs, but the 54s are brutal. The higher level the AV target, the more the balance of power shifts from debuffs to buffs.

[ QUOTE ]
...Just because 1 person finds a exploit, ...

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That is insulting and blatantly false.

well, if you want really silly defense levels, don't forget both NW and Fort get Elude as well.

Mindlink, Elude, Vengeance etc .... 185% defense to all. If that's not silly enough for you, nothing is.

Then you have to consider just how often you really NEED 185% defense to all ..... which is when I usually end up selecting either the Fortunata with Vengeance or the Huntsman. I just don't NEED all that extra defense, and instead put those resources to use as either controls, additional endurance, additional debuffs, additional AoE, etc.

For 8 man pugs where none of the other 7 are controllers or defenders and you're probably stuck with only one functioning brain cell, I'd go with a Dark/Dark/Dark defender.

See:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...mp;output=html
and
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...mp;output=html

(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
All of them. They can all hit the 160 to 190 DPS range once IO'd and procced. The only question is how they do it, pure brute force vs debuffs and Ranged vs Melee vs Hybrid. The debuffers have the additional advantage of adding more damage in teams when multiplied by the entire team, the non-debuffers adding more when solo.

(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
All of them, the NW and Fort are the most self contained and will be able to solo better sooner, but once you reach 50 and IO out, the differences will be minor. The NW is the easiest the soonest, but brings the least to the team in the long run. The Huntsman, Crab, and Bane should typically have better endurance options from the builds I've seen so far, and bring the most debuff as well as the most AoE in the long run. It's more of a matter of degrees and shades with the NW the most self-contained on one end and the AoE Crab on the other with the Fort, Bane, and Huntsman in-between in more or less that order.

(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
All of them, altho the Bane is the most derided and mis-understood, with Huntsman being the second most derided and misunderstood. Or vice versa. However, the reality at level 50 IO'd out does not support that derision.

(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
That would depend on which bells and whistles you prefer. honestly, pre-24 they are all going to feel weak. Browse all four with mid's to help decide which you personally prefer.

(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
In pure self-contained defense the NW leads, being very similar to an SR scrapper. The Fortunata would likely be the second most durable being similar to an SR scrapper without elude. If teamed, both NW and Fort can add Vengeance to that already high level of self contained defense. ON the other end of the spectrum you have Banes and Crabs. The Bane can IO up to (44/48/44 with aid-self) while the Crab can IO up to (40/50/40 with aid-self) or (35/45/35 without aid-self) while also maintaining resist shields and 30% more health. The Bane will have higher ST damage and more debuffs (team multiplied damage), while the Crab has higher AoE damage and less debuffs. 1 small purple will over-cap any of the choices.

A third alternate build for the Crab will double it's already high AoE at the extreme expense of both endurance and defense, lowering it's defense numbers to the (25/35/25 without aid-self) range. It should be noted, this third option when duo-ed or Trio-ed with matching builds is devastating in the extreme. It would only be considered "comparitively weak" only when solo. This emphasizes largest advantage of all the veats, put any two of them on any team, teach them to work together, and the resulting force is four times as powerful.

The minor weakness of the weakest veat is completely eliminated by simply teaming with any another veat.

I see it as:

[u]Best[u]
Peak Regen (up 50% of the time)
Peak Willpower
Peak Regen (down 50% of the time)
...
Average Regen (up 15% of the time)
Average Willpower
Average Regen (up 33% of the time)
...
Average Regen (down 67% of the time)
[u]Worst[u]

But it also has a great deal to do with which playstyle fits each player, as well as which primary you pair with each secondary. Willpower is easier, cheaper, and more consistent in it's performance. Some people will find that a good thing, while others find it a bad thing.

off the top of my head without checking, I'm pretty sure my Fort/Widow Claw attack chain costs roughly 5/3 what a Claws scrapper version would cost.

Looks like Venus runs 200 DPS costing 4.3 EPS while Claws with a similar build should be ??? DPS and less than 3.3 EPS. I don't have a full IO claws build to compare to right now, only SO Claws builds.

Fortunata Built for Hybrid Melee/Ranged/Control
Followed by:
Katana/Regen
Katana/Willpower
Dark Melee/Shield Defense