Good question, hope I don't get flamed for the answer I am about to give.
Really it all comes down to personal preference and playstyle. Widows are like suped up Scrapper/Stalkers. So if you like the type of style where you are just scrapping then that would be the route you would want to take. Widows have some great damage and defense.
Banes have a more diverse style of play that some don't like or just don't want to accomadate to. I would say they are more like Stalkanators (Stalker/Dominators). As they have some all time resistance, decent defense, perma health boost, loads of mitigation, pets, and some high damaging attacks.
So between the two, Bane requires a more active playstyle, whereas the Widow you can just run through. I like Banes, I guess because of all the things they can do. Banes do lots of other types of damage like Toxic and Energy, along with loads of mitigation; like stuns, KD, slows, defense debuff, and holds, on top of all that they get pets with about the same load of mitigation, while also increasing damage output and taking aggro off of you increasing survivablity.
So with the Bane it will require you to make sure you are debuffing and making sure you are using all this tools, whereas with a Widow the only the you have to do other than attack is make sure you use Mind Link when it is up or perma that and just attack.
Most people also don't like how the animation times on a Bane are horrible. Me personally I don't care, I can take out an LT in one hit in under 3 seconds and pretty much easily pick off the minions if my pets don't take them out first. Another thing most people think is that Banes are the most inferior of all VEATs, personally I don't think that is true, I have a far easier time soloing mishes, boss, and EB's with my Bane than my Crab.
So in a comparison Widows have good defense and damage so they can offset the fact that they have little to no mitigation. Banes are more active and have tools to divert aggro so that they are not attacked as much and don't need defense. Played correctly both can run through mishes and take little to no damage, it is just easier to get to that point with Widows than it is with Banes.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Hello everyone,
I just dinged my first lvl 50 in this game and now I am trying out the Elite AT's. I just read the guides on this page, but I find I still have a general question...
What is the inherent point of playing a Bane over a Night Widow? It seems the Bane is most effective when played as a melee 'blapper,' so if you are going for high damage melee toon with stealth and some ranged attacks, doesn't the Night Widow do a better job of that? I feel like I am missing something here.
Perhaps some of the more experienced players can explain the strengths of the Bane and why one might choose that over playing a Night Widow.
Thanks
[/ QUOTE ]
There are several opinions on Banes in general, and Banes versus Night Widows. I'll offer you my perspective since I have both a Soldier and a Widow each set up with dual builds.
First off if you are looking to min/max there is no reason to play a Bane over a Night Widow. Night Widows are near top of the food chain for melee damage.
Second, I disagree with the philosophy of playing a Bane like a blapper. I prefer to play mine as a Stalker-lite. I find the ranged attacks other than Poisonous Ray to be wastes of power choices. Mace Beam is meh, and it is out done by the Black Scorpion version. The AoE's are quick on recharge, and light on end. That's somewhat attractive until you look at the pitiful damage they do with 2s animations. Garbage. I've leveled my Bane successfully with the mace melee, and for a time I had Mace Beam. I rarely used it for anything more than a mule for the Thunderstrike set. Learn to love Surveillance + Build Up as an opener, and follow up with Placate. Due to the low melee defense there might be times you need to run to re-hide, but I would rather do that than pew-pew with those pathetic energy blasts. If you group a lot then this shouldn't be as big an issue, and you will fill a quasi-stalker role of assassinating problem targets. You'll also provide a nice defense, to-hit, and damage bonus with your Tactical Training powers. Of course all of that is shared with a Night Widow as well.
So, if Night Widows are better why do I like my Bane better? I happen to like the debuffs it brings in Surveillance, and Poisonous Ray. I happen to like the crunch of Shatter, and the devastation of Crowd Control after Placate. I like having my own team of robo-spiders. I like not running out of endurance with my attack chain like I do on my Widow. I like looking like a Wolf Spider with a spiked baseball bat. My Bane was also my first SoA.
If you absolutely have to have the best melee out of the SoA's go with the Night Widow. Hopefully you will make a soldier as well. Even if you go Crab I highly recommend using the dual build option to explore the Bane. It's not as bad as some make it out to be, but it's not the best of the four branches either.
Oh yeah, it is just something about seeing that Executioners Strike that just makes me love it, oh I now have to go play my Arbiter.
Note: I know this is kinda off subject but after thinking about my toon, have they made so you could change the color of the capes for spiders yet, I know butt capes have been added just wondering if this has been worked on yet.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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First off if you are looking to min/max there is no reason to play a Bane over a Night Widow. Night Widows are near top of the food chain for melee damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the answer right here. You play a bane because you like the tools and tricks they bring to the table. They're more versatile than Night Widows and there's more ways you can build them.
But strictly for putting the hurt on, go NW.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I second that.....errr, third that. Whatever, EG is right on the money.
Nope. No color changes on the capes as of yet.
I have a NW and bane at 50, nothing wrong with the bane personally. What hampers it is long cast times and all non-mace powers causing redraw. And there are a lot of non-mace powers to grab.
They also don't get a tier 9 power: web cocoon is a cool hold and all but I want something like shield's t9. Of course, one could pretend the 2 arachnobots are a t9... you summon them, then they bite the dust 15 seconds later and you're left with a feeling of "yyeeesss I'm pretty tough!" as you watch them fade away into nothingness (heh, couldn't resist saying that, for those of you that like the pets that's great but personally I find them both squishy and useless).
On paper the bane -should- be 24 carat gold: crits, higher hps with bane armor, decent resists, passive status prot (which some folks don't like). And once you get capped defenses (by diving into fighting or leadership pools) and get it IOed up a bit they are no worse off then widows IMO. My bane has been able to do anything my NW has, yeah I'm not soloing pylons or smacking around heros but not many veats are.
You know what the banes -biggest- problem is? Everyone expects them to be night widows. Outside of both being veats and having stealth they are different creatures. Just my opinion of course.
I like my Bane better solo because the KB helps me stay alive since I'm running on SOs and generic IOs.
Whenever someone on my team tells me how much better Night Widows are I just laugh and run in and beat the [censored] out of everything.
Having played both a Bane and a Widow to fairly high levels, they both seem more then adequate soloers by my standards (which are admittedly low, I usually play more support characters, and rarely play melee, so mezz protection with good takedown speed is quite exciting to me. 
But I'm wondering if anyone has crunched the numbers on which brings more effective dps to a long fight against an AV, which is where the exact AT, powersets, damage, and debuffs start really mattering. 20% less damage on your average minion is barely noticable, on an AV it can make the difference between winnning and stalemating or losing. In particular, even though it takes up animation time to inflict the ~40% resistance debuff a Bane can do with Surveillance plus Venom, does it have higher *effective* dps then the Widow? For a large enough team it would, of course, since it multiplies everyones damage, but what about solo or duo where you wouldn't switch over to Crab?
Bane: heavily toxic damage stalker-corruptor.
Widow: ruthlessly efficient scrapper with style.
Reasons to go Bane over Widow: KD/hold/stuns, pets, passive hp/res boost, heavy debuffing in Venom and Surveillance to boost team DPS, satisfying CRUNCH of an Executioner's Strike.
Reasons to go Widow over Bane: higher personal DPS, scaling resists, higher defense (Elude, Vengeance, and with high +recharge, perma Mind Link).
Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.
I prefer my Bane over my Widow because he's way more stylish, and much better balanced. I have a keen appreciation of game balance. And Banes are very nicely balanced. Night Widows are overly powerful (Mind Link AND Elude? Come on!)
Also, Banes are better on style, better on Endurance and have way cooler (and way more) toys.
Just because Night Widows are overpowered doesn't mean Banes don't get the job done, and get it done very well. Try a Crowd Control>Venom Grenade combo on some spawns and I think you'll agree.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
I would like to start off by saying I am liking how this thread is going.
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They also don't get a tier 9 power: web cocoon is a cool hold and all but I want something like shield's t9.
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No they don't get a traditional t9 power, however, Web Cacoon is a beast of a power though. It won't help you all that much in an EB/AV fight(but that isn't even a big part of the game), but the rest of the content it does a great job, who needs defense when they can't touch you.
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Of course, one could pretend the 2 arachnobots are a t9... you summon them, then they bite the dust 15 seconds later and you're left with a feeling of "yyeeesss I'm pretty tough!" as you watch them fade away into nothingness (heh, couldn't resist saying that, for those of you that like the pets that's great but personally I find them both squishy and useless).
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You should get the patron pet, that plus the two pets are beasts, get TT:M, L:M, both pet IOs for resistance and defense, and I will think you would have a change in opinion. However, just with basic SOs my Call Reinforcements we ok they lasted the full 4 mins, but I also took L:M to complement TT:M.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
Try a Venom Grenade>BU>Crowd Control combo on some spawns and I think you'll agree.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fix'ed 
Interesting read-I'm currently at lvl30 on my huntswoman/bane dual build. I rebuilt my SoA instead of finishing off my crab. I decided I hated how the stupid crab backpack looks, and that it doesn't go away when I switch builds to a bane...and altitis kicked into gear!
So then-a few questions of my own came into mind:
1. Any reason to stack the 2 armors, the initial 1-24 one and the upgraded Bane one? Can you even DO that?
2. If I'm mainly soloing, is there much of a reason to take the Tactics toggle? I'm having a tough time fitting it in with the other powers I want for soloing (Frag grenade, Pummel, Bayonet...just for fun, really).
3. Do people bother with Wide-area Web Grenade? I took it, but rarely use it for much of anything, it seems. Thoughts?
4. So Web Cocoon is really that awesome? Based on the mag, looks like it can hold a boss on one hit, and the duration is enough to stack it with minimal recharge enhance (maybe even just Mental Training). Any comments on how to slot, why it's so great?
Thanks!
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
Given some actual build summaries:
Night Widow: 215 ST/400 AoE DPS, 4.25 EPS, Soft Capped Defense, Massive Defense Elude or Vengeance, even more Massive with Elude and Vengeance. Aid Self.
Fortunata: 190 ST/250-400 AoE DPS, 4.05EPS, Softcapped Defense, Massive Defense with Vengeance. In addition they have many utility and control powers. Aid Self.
(note soldiers debuffs multiply not only their personal damage, but the damage of the team as a whole. They pay for this multiplication by having lower defense and being more difficult to soft-cap)
Bane: 195 ST/450 AoE DPS, 3.53 EPS, Barely Soft Capped Defense if using every trick in the book, +30% Health, Substantial Debuffs using VG, Surveillance, and Achilles. Aid Self.
Huntsman: 165 ST/450-550 AoE DPS, 2.89 EPS, Soft Capped Defense using several IOs, only slightly easier than Bane to soft-cap (but easier to soft-cap none-the-less), +30% Health, Substantial Debuffs using VG, Surveillance, and Achilles. Aid Self.
(note: 10% of the health bonus for the crab and huntsman comes from IO sets used in the above reference builds.)
Crab: 125 ST/700-800+ AoE DPS, 3.25 EPS, can be softcapped with between 1 and 2 small lucks depending on build and DPS focus. +60% Health, +40% resists, does NOT have Aid Self. (aid self could be added but at a sacrifice to either defense or DPS)
It should be noted, any perceived weakness for the crabs is very quickly overcome when the crabs duo with any other veat. When paired with any other veat, crabs become massive AoE Killing Machines and still retain enough ST dps to take out AVs.
It's all about which type of DPS, Defense, and at what EPS cost. Night Widows are the most self contained, bringing the least amount of group multiplication. Fortunatas sacrifice some of that independance for group multiplication via control. Solidiers in each form sacrifice even more independance in order to bring additional AoE and Debuffs that further multiply team damage, not self-only damage. Soldiers also on average have an 0.65 to 1.00 EPS endurance advantage over widows/forts in endurance costs. That endurance can then either be saved, or used for pool:leadership powers to further multiply team performance instead of self-only performance.
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Interesting read-I'm currently at lvl30 on my huntswoman/bane dual build. I rebuilt my SoA instead of finishing off my crab. I decided I hated how the stupid crab backpack looks, and that it doesn't go away when I switch builds to a bane...and altitis kicked into gear!
So then-a few questions of my own came into mind:
1. Any reason to stack the 2 armors, the initial 1-24 one and the upgraded Bane one? Can you even DO that?
2. If I'm mainly soloing, is there much of a reason to take the Tactics toggle? I'm having a tough time fitting it in with the other powers I want for soloing (Frag grenade, Pummel, Bayonet...just for fun, really).
3. Do people bother with Wide-area Web Grenade? I took it, but rarely use it for much of anything, it seems. Thoughts?
4. So Web Cocoon is really that awesome? Based on the mag, looks like it can hold a boss on one hit, and the duration is enough to stack it with minimal recharge enhance (maybe even just Mental Training). Any comments on how to slot, why it's so great?
Thanks!
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1. The only reason is for more mez protection. I have it on my Bane, but I wouldn't take the wolf one unless you get everything else you want first. Edit: Or maybe for IO bonus purposes.
2. I like it because I can hit things more, but its not "must-have" like TT:Maneuvers.
3. On a Huntsman its good to take because it can keep the mobs from getting into melee and keep them from getting knocked away by Frag Grenade, and it also has decent slow. On a Bane it is very skippable (because of redraw mostly).
4. Im pretty sure its Mag 3, so only LTs will get held in one hit. But, it is up very often (every 8 seconds with 2 recharges and Mental Training) and it gives a pretty good slow bonus. I slot mine 2 each of Accuracy, Hold, and Recharge. If you are using IOs or don't think you need the extra Accuracy some slow wouldn't be too bad.
I don't understand why all the talk about Bane being squishy, and constantly comparing it to Night Widows. Bane is vastly superior in every facet of gameplay, minus the slow casting and no elude.
The damage output is ridiculously high, and as for smacking around heroes, a fully slotted Bane Spider has no problems doing it. As far as soft capping on defenses, wasting power slots on the fighting or leadership trees is pointless. Just spend the money IO'ing your toon out with purples and other expensive sets, and you'll be fine. I have a lvl 50 Bane God. So my advice is simple...stop comparing it to NW's, its a different class, different style, and better in my opinion. Of the VEATS it is clearly the strongest, anyone who claims it isn't, either has never played a Bane Spider, or just has no skill.
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting read-I'm currently at lvl30 on my huntswoman/bane dual build. I rebuilt my SoA instead of finishing off my crab. I decided I hated how the stupid crab backpack looks, and that it doesn't go away when I switch builds to a bane...and altitis kicked into gear!
So then-a few questions of my own came into mind:
1. Any reason to stack the 2 armors, the initial 1-24 one and the upgraded Bane one? Can you even DO that?
2. If I'm mainly soloing, is there much of a reason to take the Tactics toggle? I'm having a tough time fitting it in with the other powers I want for soloing (Frag grenade, Pummel, Bayonet...just for fun, really).
3. Do people bother with Wide-area Web Grenade? I took it, but rarely use it for much of anything, it seems. Thoughts?
4. So Web Cocoon is really that awesome? Based on the mag, looks like it can hold a boss on one hit, and the duration is enough to stack it with minimal recharge enhance (maybe even just Mental Training). Any comments on how to slot, why it's so great?
Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
I stacked the 2 armors on my Bane, but not my Huntsman. The Wolf Armor is two slotted with Steadfast (KD protection, and global defense). I don't notice the lack of mez resistance on the Huntsman. I suppose you could get by without Wolf Spider armor, but I am not sure what I would take in it's place.
The Tactics toggle is nice to have due to it's Perception bonus. This comes in handy against your former comrades in Arachnos as Night Widows, and Banes love to hide. It also is a source of Confuse, and Fear protection more a concern for pvp. I suppose you could skip it, but I don't skip any Tactical Training on SoA. Oh, that toggle is a nice place to house the Gaussian's set for more defense. That's probably one of the big reasons I take it.
Wide Area Web Grenade is pretty sweet. It's a decent immobilize power allowing me to keep things at range to make the most of Combat Training: Defensive. It's also got a -50% recharge effect just like the single target version found in Traps/Devices. I like it personally.
Web Cocoon will not hold a boss in one hit (well if you are lucky, and if the pets use their hold it will stick in 1 application), but it will if you stack it. Stacking isn't hard with enough recharge, and hold duration. This power also has properties of Web Grenade (-50% recharge, fly, and run speeds, -10% fly, -50000% jump height). It's pretty good if you have the room for it. Slot this 1-2 accuracy (this depends if you take the training tactics or not), 2-3 hold duration, 1-2 recharge, and 1 endurance to taste. If you take this plan to slot it or otherwise don't bother. An LT mag hold only enhanced for accuracy is a waste of your time.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why all the talk about Bane being squishy, and constantly comparing it to Night Widows. Bane is vastly superior in every facet of gameplay, minus the slow casting and no elude.
The damage output is ridiculously high, and as for smacking around heroes, a fully slotted Bane Spider has no problems doing it. As far as soft capping on defenses, wasting power slots on the fighting or leadership trees is pointless. Just spend the money IO'ing your toon out with purples and other expensive sets, and you'll be fine. I have a lvl 50 Bane God. So my advice is simple...stop comparing it to NW's, its a different class, different style, and better in my opinion. Of the VEATS it is clearly the strongest, anyone who claims it isn't, either has never played a Bane Spider, or just has no skill.
[/ QUOTE ]
O rly?
Hmmm, much to chew over...it would appear that Web Cocoon, based on my playstyle, may only be effective on my bane build. That'll free up my powers a touch more on the Huntsman build to get Pummel. I know, it's not great, it's conceptual for me on that build! 
But I think you're correct on the Bane build-both armors will help, as I'll be in melee range much more often. I plan on playing the Bane as more of a scrapper/stalker, and the Huntsman as more of a stalker/blaster.
Thanks for the clarifications, people!
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why all the talk about Bane being squishy, and constantly comparing it to Night Widows. Bane is vastly superior in every facet of gameplay, minus the slow casting and no elude.
The damage output is ridiculously high, and as for smacking around heroes, a fully slotted Bane Spider has no problems doing it. As far as soft capping on defenses, wasting power slots on the fighting or leadership trees is pointless. Just spend the money IO'ing your toon out with purples and other expensive sets, and you'll be fine. I have a lvl 50 Bane God. So my advice is simple...stop comparing it to NW's, its a different class, different style, and better in my opinion. Of the VEATS it is clearly the strongest, anyone who claims it isn't, either has never played a Bane Spider, or just has no skill.
[/ QUOTE ]
O rly?
[/ QUOTE ]
Rly
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why all the talk about Bane being squishy, and constantly comparing it to Night Widows. Bane is vastly superior in every facet of gameplay, minus the slow casting and no elude.
The damage output is ridiculously high, and as for smacking around heroes, a fully slotted Bane Spider has no problems doing it. As far as soft capping on defenses, wasting power slots on the fighting or leadership trees is pointless. Just spend the money IO'ing your toon out with purples and other expensive sets, and you'll be fine. I have a lvl 50 Bane God. So my advice is simple...stop comparing it to NW's, its a different class, different style, and better in my opinion. Of the VEATS it is clearly the strongest, anyone who claims it isn't, either has never played a Bane Spider, or just has no skill.
[/ QUOTE ]
O rly?
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't take him seriously when he asks us to, "Just spend the money to purple out your Bane and you'll be fine". Makes me laugh actually. Calling it, "The strongest VEAT" is also a misnomer. Truthfully, it isn't the strongest in any one area. Instead, Banes are good at a little bit of everything. They've got pet(s), hold, debuffs, stealth, ranged, melee, +HP and some other toys. It's makes them a verstile, jack-of-all trades; master of none AT. You needn't purple them out to be effective or fun.
On a personal note, I did take the Fighting pool on my Bane and found it to be extremely helpful. He's melee oriented and the added resistance and defense was handy.
When there is no room left in Hell, the Dead shall walk the earth.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Try a BU>Crowd Control>Venom Grenade from Hide combo on some spawns and I think you'll agree.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fix'ed
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll see your fixed and raise you a Hide crit.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't take him seriously when he asks us to, "Just spend the money to purple out your Bane and you'll be fine". Makes me laugh actually. Calling it, "The strongest VEAT" is also a misnomer. Truthfully, it isn't the strongest in any one area. Instead, Banes are good at a little bit of everything. They've got pet(s), hold, debuffs, stealth, ranged, melee, +HP and some other toys. It's makes them a verstile, jack-of-all trades; master of none AT. You needn't purple them out to be effective or fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, Touch of Death gives better melee defense, and other sets offer better positional defenses than purples do. On my new build I think I have maybe one or two purple set(s) only for recharge though. They don't offer defenses like other sets do.
[ QUOTE ]
On a personal note, I did take the Fighting pool on my Bane and found it to be extremely helpful. He's melee oriented and the added resistance and defense was handy.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I could fit it in my build I would take it too, but I already over soft cap melee and ranged defenses, and get pretty close to soft capping AoE. However, tough would be a good benefit.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Hello everyone,
I just dinged my first lvl 50 in this game and now I am trying out the Elite AT's. I just read the guides on this page, but I find I still have a general question...
What is the inherent point of playing a Bane over a Night Widow? It seems the Bane is most effective when played as a melee 'blapper,' so if you are going for high damage melee toon with stealth and some ranged attacks, doesn't the Night Widow do a better job of that? I feel like I am missing something here.
Perhaps some of the more experienced players can explain the strengths of the Bane and why one might choose that over playing a Night Widow.
Thanks