Best Soloing - Arachnos Widow or Soldier?
By
BaneScout101,
Posted on: 2009-06-10 08:02 in Soldiers of Arachnos
This conversation is really between the fortunata and the bane spider. i chose fort, and here's why:
1- Fort, psi damage hardly gets resisted, when compared to the widow's lethal damage.
2- Fort, has a single target hold, immob and KB. soloing -vs- small mobs you'll have plenty of mitigation, and if things get tough you'll have psychic wail (more mitigation with the stun). Plus you can also work the confuse into the build if you want more mitigation.
3- Fort, they get in less trouble at range, and you have a couple AoE/Cones from which to choose that can do more group damage to a larger mob. But otherwise i think its a wash. As long as you take your leadership(s) you'll be a welcome member to a team.
4- they both suck before 24, but when you respec at 24, you can have your whole attack chain for a Fort (subdue, dominate, TK blast, confuse) very quickly. You wont have to wait for crowd control at 32 after your respec, and you wont be tempted to take anything from your soldier pools.
5- they are equally survivable, since the fort can have mind link, and the bane gets a pile of resistance. they both get both leaderships and the standard epic defense. My 50 Fort runs about 63% def to melee/range/aoe when mind link is up (about 20 second downtime).
The Bane spider and fort are awesome toons to solo, and after 24 they're VERY fun. The Fort will be more rewarding sooner, and PvP's much more easily. however, for pure fun placate/crowd control is freaking awesome from the bane. You'll prolly want to roll one of each 
hope that answers your questions.
Kaars Aerinstar
-BoP-
[ QUOTE ]
This conversation is really between the fortunata and the bane spider. i chose fort, and here's why:
1- Fort, psi damage hardly gets resisted, when compared to the widow's lethal damage.
2- Fort, has a single target hold, immob and KB. soloing -vs- small mobs you'll have plenty of mitigation, and if things get tough you'll have psychic wail (more mitigation with the stun). Plus you can also work the confuse into the build if you want more mitigation.
3- Fort, they get in less trouble at range, and you have a couple AoE/Cones from which to choose that can do more group damage to a larger mob. But otherwise i think its a wash. As long as you take your leadership(s) you'll be a welcome member to a team.
4- they both suck before 24, but when you respec at 24, you can have your whole attack chain for a Fort (subdue, dominate, TK blast, confuse) very quickly. You wont have to wait for crowd control at 32 after your respec, and you wont be tempted to take anything from your soldier pools.
5- they are equally survivable, since the fort can have mind link, and the bane gets a pile of resistance. they both get both leaderships and the standard epic defense. My 50 Fort runs about 63% def to melee/range/aoe when mind link is up (about 20 second downtime).
The Bane spider and fort are awesome toons to solo, and after 24 they're VERY fun. The Fort will be more rewarding sooner, and PvP's much more easily. however, for pure fun placate/crowd control is freaking awesome from the bane. You'll prolly want to roll one of each
hope that answers your questions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I already know this is going to bring controversy.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure this has been brought up many many times before in previous forums. I have been also perusing all the FAQ's on these two to find out which one is best at soloing as I will soon be at level 50 with my Bots/Traps MM and not sure which one to pick? So, to make it easy on everyone, let me break it down like this:
(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
[/ QUOTE ]
Single target: Night Widow. It might be Lethal, but the DPS is exceptional, so it really doesn't matter.
AoE: Crab.
[ QUOTE ]
(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fortunata is probably the easiest, though Night Widows are probably a bit faster. Banes are solid for this too. You just need an insp now and then for the tough fights and some key IOs to provide KB prot. Crabs probably solo the worst of the builds, but they aren't bad. EBs with lots of AoE around can be a problem, as the ST DPS isn't great without the pets unless you use melee, in which case you need significant IO Melee Def buffs to pull that off reasonably well. With that level of IOs though, what doesn't solo well?
[ QUOTE ]
(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
[/ QUOTE ]
All mine seem to get lots of invites. Crabs perhaps are the most useful due to the AoE.
[ QUOTE ]
(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Soldiers have the better version of Maneuvers and Venom Grenade, which probably qualifies as more bells and whistles. Mid levels Fortunata's get some useful control.
[ QUOTE ]
(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
[/ QUOTE ]
Fortunatas win the survivability sweepstakes hands down due to the controls. Crabs have pets to pull some aggro and a HP boost/self-heal. Night Widows can soft-cap Def pretty easily. Banes are the squishiest.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure this has been brought up many many times before in previous forums. I have been also perusing all the FAQ's on these two to find out which one is best at soloing as I will soon be at level 50 with my Bots/Traps MM and not sure which one to pick? So, to make it easy on everyone, let me break it down like this:
(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
These are just a few things I thought of. Feel free to add anything else you guys might know about these two to help me decide which one to build first. I know there will be pros and cons for both but from what I've been reading in some of the FAQ's it appears the Arachnos Widow might be the best solo'er in the group but not sure about sheer damage and defense versus the Arachnos Soldier?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well for bells and whistles the Soldier has some unique offense options in Pummel (Mag 3 stun!), and Wide Area Web Grenade. The Widow has claw attacks, but don't dis the Dart Burst! Either option you are stuck with basic training until level 24, and then you can respec into a branch of your choice.
I don't really notice a difference of group invites over either Widow/Soldier. Folks love having either because of all the Leadership buffs they bring, and no matter what you know they are packing some serious heat too!
The Widow I think is better over all at solo just because either the Fort or NW builds can do it just fine. With Soldiers Banes have soloing on lock down over Crabs for a long time. Crabs can solo, but as an AT they mature pretty late.
What I recommend is playing both, and see what you like best. I also recommend dual builds. I have a Fort/NW as one character, and a Bane/Huntsman build. Huntsman is option 3 for Soldiers. Sure, it doesn't have the energy damage or as many options, but the rifle attacks really are quite nice. Usually these builds take the Bane secondary stuff like the debuff. A third option for Widows are the melee Forts. They take a combination of Blood widow strikes, and Fort psi blasts. They can be very devastating.
Embrace the options! Make two new characters!!
Arachnos Widows
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
See:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...mp;output=html
and
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...mp;output=html
(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
All of them. They can all hit the 160 to 190 DPS range once IO'd and procced. The only question is how they do it, pure brute force vs debuffs and Ranged vs Melee vs Hybrid. The debuffers have the additional advantage of adding more damage in teams when multiplied by the entire team, the non-debuffers adding more when solo.
(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
All of them, the NW and Fort are the most self contained and will be able to solo better sooner, but once you reach 50 and IO out, the differences will be minor. The NW is the easiest the soonest, but brings the least to the team in the long run. The Huntsman, Crab, and Bane should typically have better endurance options from the builds I've seen so far, and bring the most debuff as well as the most AoE in the long run. It's more of a matter of degrees and shades with the NW the most self-contained on one end and the AoE Crab on the other with the Fort, Bane, and Huntsman in-between in more or less that order.
(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
All of them, altho the Bane is the most derided and mis-understood, with Huntsman being the second most derided and misunderstood. Or vice versa. However, the reality at level 50 IO'd out does not support that derision.
(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
That would depend on which bells and whistles you prefer. honestly, pre-24 they are all going to feel weak. Browse all four with mid's to help decide which you personally prefer.
(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
In pure self-contained defense the NW leads, being very similar to an SR scrapper. The Fortunata would likely be the second most durable being similar to an SR scrapper without elude. If teamed, both NW and Fort can add Vengeance to that already high level of self contained defense. ON the other end of the spectrum you have Banes and Crabs. The Bane can IO up to (44/48/44 with aid-self) while the Crab can IO up to (40/50/40 with aid-self) or (35/45/35 without aid-self) while also maintaining resist shields and 30% more health. The Bane will have higher ST damage and more debuffs (team multiplied damage), while the Crab has higher AoE damage and less debuffs. 1 small purple will over-cap any of the choices.
A third alternate build for the Crab will double it's already high AoE at the extreme expense of both endurance and defense, lowering it's defense numbers to the (25/35/25 without aid-self) range. It should be noted, this third option when duo-ed or Trio-ed with matching builds is devastating in the extreme. It would only be considered "comparitively weak" only when solo. This emphasizes largest advantage of all the veats, put any two of them on any team, teach them to work together, and the resulting force is four times as powerful.
The minor weakness of the weakest veat is completely eliminated by simply teaming with any another veat.
Bane by far. Hands down no questions asked. Whoever stated above that Banes are the squishiest either has no skill, or has never played a Bane spider.
[ QUOTE ]
Bane by far. Hands down no questions asked. Whoever stated above that Banes are the squishiest either has no skill, or has never played a Bane spider.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've played both a Night Widow and a Bane to level 50, and I personally think the Night Widows win with the survivability and damage output between the two. While I do enjoy my Bane, my Night Widow is definitely more capable of going off in an 8 man mission and soloing multiple mobs or soloing 1 man mobs.
Of the 4 SoA, Fortunata solos the best. Not because she kills the fastest. It's more because she has the defense, mez protection and CONTROL to counter most things you can see when you solo.
Yes, NW and Bane do more damage but NW has literally no controls at all unless you use Air Sup and Bane is a bit more squishier at melee range.
Fort's damage isn't the top but it's sufficient enough to solo well and fast. Just take double Assault and Gloom and you will be stream rolling with ease.
Fortunata has mag 4 Stun to open the battle on boss or you can simply stack two Dominate with ease. It's not like Fort is going to die after the initial hit.
To give you a good example, I was soloing on relentless with my Crab. Everything went very well until the boss. He landed a CRITICAL on me which did over 1000 damage. I died in split second. If it was my Fortunata, I can open the battle with Stun and the rest is just risk-free. My NW also died once when I was farming at the Wall. One of the bosses landed a Critical on me and I died in split second before I could heal.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My Bane experience is limited, but I have 50's of other VEATs, and I had the easiest, fastest, and most fun with my NightWidow on the trip. My Fortunata was probably safer due to the mezzes, but I didn't have as much fun, the Crab has great AoE ability, but can solo slowly due to a much lower ST damage capability in my experience.
All of em get team invites.
Bells and whistles(pre-respec)-Widows pretty much get damage, and lots of it. Soldiers get some damage, some debuffs (well a debuff in venom grenade) and an immobilize.
I might go with Widows for survivability..IIRC they get superior mez protection, and the high ST damage gives enemies less time to hurt you.
It might just come down to preferred playstyle;
Forts get good controls with good damage, Nightwidows can play a bit like scrappers or stalkers. Crabs can be MM-ish (though with less refined pet control) or built to tank. Banes, got me. My only bane is a 2nd build for soloing when I can't find a team on my Huntsman build and is only 35..
Good luck and have fun, from what I've seen, all the VEATS have excellent survivability & good damage potential, they just tend to differ in role.
[ QUOTE ]
It might just come down to preferred playstyle;
[/ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much it.
I like the way a Bane Spider plays feels like a melee/defense/support/control set. Kinda feels like a Dominator (My favorite non-epic AT hands down) with Stalker benefits or vise versa. I love the great melee damage, the hp buff, pets, controls, etc. Never a dull moment.
With the Widow it is nice great attack damage great defense decent debuffs. It is alright.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Banes and Night Widows are both beastly soloers.
Banes have style, toys and very respectable damage output, and are pretty Endurance efficient. "EXECUTIONER'S STRIKE!" is one of the most satisfying attack texts in the game. Bane armor looks very good. They are squishy, though. Banes are my personal favorite. They are the love child of Darth Vader and the Predator.
Night Widows have awesome damage output and are very safe. Very demanding on the Endurance. Make a female one so you can get the butt cape (mine's male 
).
Forts and Crabs are much more comfortable on teams, though they can be soloed too, but Banes and Night Widows are both superior soloers.
Do what I do and play them all.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
[ QUOTE ]
(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
[/ QUOTE ]
I ran a dual build Bane/Crab to 50, and now have a NW/Fort up to 38.
Bane and Crab are very different in functionality. Bane is a much easier soloer unless/until you IO out the Crab for better defenses, typically late game. Crab brings much more to a team, with some of the best AoEs you can get villianside. Very convenient to have both builds if you do some soloing and some teaming, both welcome on teams but probably Crab more so. And I never had a tough time choosing which one to run, based on soloing or teaming.
On the Night Widow/Fort, I keep flip-flopping between the two. The NW is a bit faster soloer, because of higher damage, the Fort is safer and sometimes even nets faster then the NW because the Fort almost never needs to wait around to heal up from a bad hit string, she just doesn't get hit much if I use the controls (Confuse stacked on bosses ftw!). The Fort is better on most teams because of more AoEs, though once in awhile its handy on a team to have a melee type like a NW to charge in and set the pace if you lack a brute (or a sufficiently aggressive brute ). Definitely learn about the IO slotting tricks for recharge on Mind Link on the NW, though, otherwise you come out of a lot of fights damaged.
[ QUOTE ]
Of the 4 SoA, Fortunata solos the best. Not because she kills the fastest. It's more because she has the defense, mez protection and CONTROL to counter most things you can see when you solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares about control when the target you face is dead? I understand where you're coming from, but controls or no controls dead is dead regardless.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of the 4 SoA, Fortunata solos the best. Not because she kills the fastest. It's more because she has the defense, mez protection and CONTROL to counter most things you can see when you solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares about control when the target you face is dead? I understand where you're coming from, but controls or no controls dead is dead regardless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Death is the best debuff/control there is.
Quote:
|
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
[ QUOTE ]
Death is the best debuff/control there is.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the meanwhile, though, one less thing attempting to cream my butter is extremely beneficial to survival.
We all have different views on that idea. I figure if they're dead, I don't need to control them.
Quote:
|
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
[ QUOTE ]
Bane by far. Hands down no questions asked. Whoever stated above that Banes are the squishiest either has no skill, or has never played a Bane spider.
[/ QUOTE ]
You may have a point, since I don't consider skill at hiding in a corner when assessing survivability.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
Bane by far. Hands down no questions asked. Whoever stated above that Banes are the squishiest either has no skill, or has never played a Bane spider.
[/ QUOTE ]
This just has me wondering whether or not you have played a Widow...
Night Widow.
Mine has no purple sets, but is otherwise well IOed. Defenses are soft-capped outside of Mind Link. When I want it, or for team support, Mind Link is perma without Hasten.
Other than AVs, about the only thing that ever defeats me in PvE is the cascade failure caused by a succession of lucky shots which apply -Def.
It's often only after such a defeat that I remember that I have Elude, so round two often goes my way.
Night Widows get Mind Link and Elude. I love my Bane, he's my fave VEAT, but Banes have zero answer to that kind of survivability. Yes, you can enhance your survivability by doing things like take the pets, take the Web Cocoon, and practice blapping tough opponents, but the Night Widow has freaking Mind Link AND Elude. Throw Scaling Resists in there for the Night Widow, too. There's no beating that for the Bane. There just isn't.
Banes are still my fave though!
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
well, if you want really silly defense levels, don't forget both NW and Fort get Elude as well.
Mindlink, Elude, Vengeance etc .... 185% defense to all. If that's not silly enough for you, nothing is.
Then you have to consider just how often you really NEED 185% defense to all ..... which is when I usually end up selecting either the Fortunata with Vengeance or the Huntsman. I just don't NEED all that extra defense, and instead put those resources to use as either controls, additional endurance, additional debuffs, additional AoE, etc.
[ QUOTE ]
Bane by far. Hands down no questions asked. Whoever stated above that Banes are the squishiest either has no skill, or has never played a Bane spider.
[/ QUOTE ]
I figured I should give a more serious response to this.
<ul type="square">[*]Fortunata's can use their 2 Confuse powers to make the majority of fights pose no threat at all. If they cannot confuse foes they have Holds to fall back on (as well as a Mag4 Stun and a PBAoE Stun). If those fail, then they have soft-capped Defense.
[*]Night Widows have soft-capped Defense. Because of their exceptional DPS, their Defense is less tested than that of any other sub-AT except Fortunatas. They also have the ability to go way beyond the soft-cap to protect against catastrophic Def failures. And as a last ditch they have scaling Resistance.
[*]Crabs have good HP from a buff that is relatively easily made permanent. They also have decent Def versus Ranged attacks that can be raised to the cap fairly easily. Their solid Resistances tends to effectively increase their HP even further.
Crabs do have to worry about -Def, as they don't have excess Def or major control options. They do have the Res and HP (and Serum can be held in reserve as a self-heal for the 1st instance of trouble) to mitigate a cascade Def failure. And they have the AoE to eliminate a lot of the -Def wielders in a hurry to prevent such a failure or lessen the danger it poses when it does happen.
This tends to limit the threats to them to hard-hitting melee opponents or mobs that have scattered and rendered their AoE less effective Using an Immob can limit that threat and allow the Crab to stay at range even versus Purple Triangle users.
Crabs also have Tanker level Status Protection.
[*]I differentiate the Bane from the Huntsman based on the preference for Melee on the Bane and Ranged on the Huntsman. I don't have any experience with the Huntsman build, so I end with the Bane.
The Bane has good Ranged Defense, but has to work to get good Melee Defense. Behind the Defense there is a good passive HP buff and some Resistance. But Banes have fewer HP and substantially lower Resistances than Crabs.
The build is also lacking in Status Protection. In the mid-levels, I've even had 3 lowly +1 Green Ink men Stun me. I've had Malta Stun Grenades put me out of action for extended periods at higher levels because my AoE Def wasn't great. This means you have to carry a BF or two for emergencies, but isn't that troubling. However, the need to stay upright and in melee range means that you need more KB Protection than a Crab, and so that typically burns 1 slot. Another minor issue, but not trivial.
Bane's main form of control is KD. Which is very useful much of the time, but which often has no effect in the toughest fights.
So, to summarize, a well built Bane can cover most of their weaknesses and be quite tough, but they generally fall short of even an equally well-built Crab for survivability for six reasons: (1) They are in more danger in melee, (2) SoAs get better Ranged than Melee Def which tends to multiply that, (3) the Crab has more HP, (4) the Crab has better Resistances, (5) the Crab has better Status Protection and (6) the Crab's AoE whittles a spawn down to 1 or 2 opponents in a hurry. On the plus side, Bane's tend to have better active mitigation versus a single target or small group of opponents thanks to: (1) their KD and (2) their higher ST DPS.[/list]
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of the 4 SoA, Fortunata solos the best. Not because she kills the fastest. It's more because she has the defense, mez protection and CONTROL to counter most things you can see when you solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares about control when the target you face is dead? I understand where you're coming from, but controls or no controls dead is dead regardless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Death is the best debuff/control there is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
I am sure this has been brought up many many times before in previous forums. I have been also perusing all the FAQ's on these two to find out which one is best at soloing as I will soon be at level 50 with my Bots/Traps MM and not sure which one to pick? So, to make it easy on everyone, let me break it down like this:
(1) Which Archetype can produce more damage
either in melee or ranged attacks?
(2) Which Archetype is best at soloing?
(3) Which Archetype might get more invites to teams as they are seen as more valuable in team play?
(4) In the early levels, which Archetype has more bells and whistles in their arsenal?
(5) Which Archetype has better survivability (defense)
These are just a few things I thought of. Feel free to add anything else you guys might know about these two to help me decide which one to build first. I know there will be pros and cons for both but from what I've been reading in some of the FAQ's it appears the Arachnos Widow might be the best solo'er in the group but not sure about sheer damage and defense versus the Arachnos Soldier?