GavinRuneblade

and you would be correct. It also has horrid accuracy, which I forgot to mention and which is very important.

So you're saying Citadel and Luminary can't fire a gun without a human backing them up? In CoX Tech allows things that don't in reality. Therefore, the premise that "will practice (natural) or higher technology (tech) give you a bigger improvement" as a way to tell the two origins apart is a flawed premise. In CoX, the answer will ALWAYS be tech.

CoX tech can give him a mind reading neutral implant that he doesn't need to use buttons on. Our apache pilots just look at something and it gets targetted. We already have companies like Emotive that make mind-reading video game controls. Buttons? Totally irrelevant.

And teh dodging bullets is more proof technology will always win over training. A stronger suit will eventually mean he doesn't have to dodge but still can. No amount of practice can make that claim.


If we could create an AI of the caliber of Citadel or Luminary, yes.

I think this is a false premise but a very interesting way to look at the difference anyhow. In a world with technology of the level of ours in reality there is no amount of physical training that will exceed the benefits of technology. In Paragon's world as in both the DC and Marvel universes technology is vastly more superior.

No amount of natural training will amount to the weight lifting high-end powered armor servo's can lift. And I'm talking in the real world right now, not just in Paragon City. We already have had people with no feet but using artificial limbs disqualified from sports events for unfair advantage.

No amount of natural training will amount to the level of accuracy that the optic tracking device our pilots in Apache Helicopters use, much less the sort of tracking that super-advanced technology is capable of like what iron man uses in the movies. No amount of training will ever let bruce wayne or tony stark get more accurate with a gun than the technological tool that iron man uses in the movies to head shot 9 people at once. And no amount of training will make either one of them use such a weapon better. But a faster computer will make the targetting time shorter and make the tool work better in limited visibility conditions, etc etc etc.

for every character in every universe technology will always give a higher vector of improvement than simple physical activity. Simply because technology is more powerful than the human body. machines can lift more than the strongest human. Computers can react faster. we can't fly but rockets can. We're not bullet proof, but some materials are etc.

I didn't say they were poor quality. Difficult to learn? Yes. Will I ever learn to use them? Dunno, I haven't given up. And I'm darn stubborn. =) Like I said, I'm trying to learn the dwarf right now. But the question was about ease and so was my answer.

Can you name any mechanic in City that is harder to learn than kheld form use other than MM pet control? Whether I myself am any good at it is irrelevant.

I've played with a similar mechanic in several different games, not all shapeshifting, but also just massive power shifts/build shifts used in play. Khelds are no where near the hardest, but they are harder than most.

As two fast examples, in Diablo II, I leveled a hardcore wolf/fire druid into 70s and that involves shifting back and forth between two forms one for melee and one for casting. Hardcore means no deaths or the character is deleted by the battlenet servers (technically, replaced with a ghost in tattered robes that you can't log into any more but can look at sadly in your character list until you delete it to free up the character slot). Hell Diablo finally got him.

I got the hang of a tri-form (cat/bear/tauren) druid in WoW plenty fast. And there, the forms actually use totally different mechanics (one has a brute-like rage to power abilities, one uses a critical system building up charges as you hit enemies then spending them on powers, and the main uses mana like City's endurance). But they all move the same, the shift itself is instantaneous in both directions, and the power trays auto swap out for you. Also, in each form you pretty much have all the powers you need. Each one has more than just attacks, it also has a selection of buffs and debuffs.

In both cases, the key difference is that each form was totally self-sufficient. You were not forced to shift to use supplemental powers. Powers specific to the forms were locked to the forms, but each was designed so that it had all the tools it needed and the others were just optional.

Khelds need to drop back to human for too many things. This makes timing and situational awareness a more complicated process than playing in one of the other archtypes that has similar powers to the given form. It does not make the kheld worse or weaker. It does make them harder.

Yup, I did mention that the kheld gets utility and flexibility as the trade off. I never said forms were weak, bad, should not be in the game, etc. Silas asked why people think khelds are hard. I mentioned forms as one of several reasons. There was also another thread a while back about this. Forms were the biggest point mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying they are bad. Just that they are harder than say toggles. Or knowing when to use Vengeance. Or when to activate Gang War. That is all I am saying. Nothing more. If you line up all City mechanics from dead obvious to most complex, forms will be in the top 5 hardest for a great many players. Just like MM pet controls and knockback, they are also among the most powerful. Which is why, in my opinion, the devs made them with the limits they did.

Total over simplification. It is a blaster with FORCED instead of optional fly, no blapps, no controls, only 4 powers, no pools, and who has to drop into another form to use any click powers. That is an enormous difference. The drift is a hassle, but far less significant than the other issues. In the hands of an agile player I've seen it used well to take advantage of line of site for defense.

I have blasters. I have blasters with fly and hover. They are a ton easier to use than a nova. Sleep, stun, hold, etc. and the OPTION to hover or walk or stealth, Not to mention the ability to aid self, or phase, or build up without dropping out of the air into the middle of the enemy who you were previously hovering over shooting down at.

Does that mean blasters are stronger or better? No. Easier? Yes. Surely you can see that using a nova form is harder than a generic hover blaster?

Dwarf seems to be a lot simpler than nova and is why I'm trying to get the hang of it first. The move speed and lack of pools and clickies are the tricky bits. But in general they're similar to tanks/scraps/brutes/crabs/widows.

Again, the mechanics of limiting what powers you have in human vs dwarf sets them apart from any other melee class, and again that complexity is what I was commenting on. And once more, I am not saying that it is weak. I am saying it is harder to learn to use well.

If I'm on a brute, I can just toggle up, and use my powers. If I'm on a kheld, I gotta decide if it is safe to drop to human to use a click power. Can you honestly not see that one of these is more complicated than the other? Again, not better or worse. Only more complicated.

On any other character the most you gotta worry about is will aid self get interrupted or is taking the time to hit your clicky going to interrupt your attack chain. You don't really have to worry about suddenly going from tanker to blaster and back to tank in comparative squishiness just to use haste and/or buildup. That is HARDER than simply deciding to use build up before or after your next attack.

And that was all I was saying. I did not mean to say they were bad.

Pain in the ____ is two things: 1 not in any way shape or form a comment on quality, only on ease. 2 an opinion.

Does this fix it:

Forms are a pain in my ______. YMMV.

=)

Again wrong. CP is the only one with positional defense. But not the only one with a defense bonus.

Though I think only Invulnerables care. =) So you're 99.99999999999% right. Which, is pretty much close enough as to make no difference. I'm just in a mood to nitpick. So feel free to tell me I'm being a knob.

I'm familiar with that particular bug. Doesn't seem to be what's hitting me. I can say this, on a scrapper I was helping some friends get the Banished Pantheon spirit badge in Dark astoria. They tossed into chat a macro to create a button that says "target" and when you click it it targets the nearest ______ (in this case pre-filled to spirit). 6 other people copy/pasted that into their chat log and it worked. I copy pasted it, got the button clicky clicky clicky... nothing happens. Tried typing them, tried pasting them doesn't work.

If I go into my masterminds and edit the word "aggressive" to "defensive" in their default macros, they stop working. Forever. Or at least the two I tried it on months and months ago still don't work. No other change, and I know I didn't misspell it or remove a critical bit of punctuation, etc.

I have one almost functioning bind. On my warshade if I shift-left click she can teleport. I don't mess with that because it's all I got. =)

No, he is not correct.

Forms. Seriously confusing (I still don't understand how they relate to powers and sets with 100% clarity). VERY hard to use effectively. VERY easy to use stupidly. Yes, they are powerful when used well. It's that "used well" bit.

No focus. Figuring out what to do with a blaster is easy. You shoot things in the face until they die. Scrapper? Hit them in the face until they die. Controller? Paralyze them and slowly plink away at them until they die. Defender? Put shields on your teammates and drink soda while watching them hit things in the face until it dies. Kheld? Errr everything above and more depending on your choice and build.

Weaker Powers. Same exact power on a kheld and on anyone else, the kheld version does less damage, costs more endurance and/or is missing something. Compare Orbiting Death to any other damage aura. Compare the melee hold to the dark melee version. Compare the warshade and dark melee siphon life. Energy blast's attacks vs the peacebringer versions? Khelds make up for it with options. Options require information in order to make an informed and therefore wise decision. Speaking as one incapable of making a decent build, that's not as easy as some of you think.

Difficulty Slotting. Too many powers, too few slots. This means khelds require a higher degree of skill on the part of the build-designer than other characters. Not an issue for many of you on the forum. Big problem for the community as a whole.

Control/Maneuvering difficultes. The activation times on the shapeshifting as well as the multiple different modes of travel get's really confusing. Run, now fly, now run again, quick teleport! NOOO don't fly again teleport arrgh! splat. Oh sure if you know what you're doing it's powerful and flexible. If you have crappy reflexes it is a serious pain.

Mez weakness. Act like a melee character but with no mez resist unless yo go dwarf. Learnt he hard way dwarf doesn't break mez it gives you protection. Sleeep hah Dwarf! Undwarf... still sleeping, what the hell? Splat!

Kheldians are like Masterminds. You can use them and they are powerful. But using them well is hard. Any idiot can tell a mastermind's pets to go on aggressive and clear things out. Actually controlling them is difficult. Similarly, any idiot can blast things. But using all the tools a kheld comes with is difficult. Building one to not gimp critical powers with starved slots is difficult. Figuring out when to be in what form is difficult. Juggling multiple modes of travel is difficult.

Breakfrees handle that pretty well, so does the immobilize on one and walking around a corner.


I linked to the source for the build. It's working better and better as I slot it out. And the self-rez is destructive enough that at this point I don't really mind death.

You're missing two critical points:

1. Something is bugged on my game and binds don't work for me. Also, I use Q and E for turning. Alt- and Shift- not convenient at all. I have to look at the keyboard to find them. I much prefer keeping buttons handy on my tray near where my mouse pointer rests.

2. It's not just the triggering them that is the problem. I can't USE the forms. In nova I can't move. I as a player am not skilled enough to maneuver a flying character indoors. I get stuck on the floor or in a corner or looking at the ceiling. Nova is 100% useless to me. I can usually do ok with hover because it is so slow. Nova's actually move pretty quick even at low level. As a dwarf I just can't react fast enough. I'm trying another one, but in general I am stuck in the wrong place looking the wrong way. Then I go human and maneuver around and get squished while re-toggling. All in all the forms are not fluid. they're a real PITA.

I think it's the only one, but [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Coercive_Persuasion]Coercive Persuasion[/quote] has the highest ranged defense in the game.

And more on topic. I understand the concept of letting us pick the level we roll at reducing the power of specifically choosing a recipe via merits. But at the same time, I wish we could do it. I'm not convinced that choosing has to be "better" or even "as good" as rolling. I'm fine with it as an option, but if the mechanics encouraged rolls, I'd be all for that.

@Uberguy: I love Croatoa and on Virtue there were Katies advertised in broadcast almost three or four times an hour during prime East and Central time hours. It was not at all uncommon for two or three groups to be competing for players to try and get a full team. Rather like when ITFs were new.

Just to be clear, when you exemplar two things happen:
1. Set bonuses get turned off if you are more than three levels below the level of the specific IO
2. The total % bonus each Enhancement (set, hami, origin, all of them) is reduced based on a formlua using your original level and your exemplared level.

Purples and PvP IOs are immune to #1 but not immune to #2.

Purples have "resistance" to #2 in the fact that #2 applies before ED and they have higher base bonuses.

My recommendation for keeping it affordable is to work on one build at a time. Respec one of the builds the way you want it to be, but play the other one while you buy/find the IOs it. Once it is finished, respec the second while playing the first.

This way you always have one build that is fun and functional, and you have a clear goal. Plus, it is surprising how fast you can fill up a build.