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Posts
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Quote:Good discussion. I think everybody has their own individual "threshold of pain" when it comes to living with bugs on the live servers. For example, some people saw getting face planted in one's base by one's own defenses as a significant drawback to game play. Others went "meh, it'll get fixed one day soon" (which of course it did). And a third group celebrated watching base defenses activate (for possibly the first time ever for them) and saw the potential for "danger rooms" coming into being for bases. That is a pretty broad spectrum of a reaction.I have no special inside insight about the process here, but I'm nearly positive that unless it's a bug so severe that it will kill game play entirely, nothing reported in Beta is going to be fixed before it goes live.
Instead, I think Beta is the opportunity for us to QA what's going to go live so they can determine any items that need to be patched at a later date. There are exceptions, of course, like Titan Weapons (there was quite a bit of back and forth feedback and many changes actually happened) but stuff like the inspiration tray moving around is just not important enough for them to prioritize ahead of pushing code to live servers.
The OP's argument impresses me because: (a) I have no reason to doubt his credentials or assessment in the area of Paragon Studios' performance versus others in the industry. My own personal experiences seem to confirm what he is saying (b) He provided specific examples which thus far have not been disputed (though YMMV on evaluating the seriousness of bugs versus release schedules). and (c) I too am somewhat surprised at the "bit error rate" of bugs, especially recently, and I believe, like I said before, there is room for improvement. -
Yeah, I'm having a hard time pinning the blame on the actions (or lack thereof) of beta testing players too. All I've ever heard from the devs is about "how much good info" they are receiving from the beta process. But I must admit I've seen multiple bugs reported in multiple formats reported very early on make it to live servers. Seems to me there is lots of room for improvement... and not so much on the player side of the equation.
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Go old school (input from a RL old man). Pie in the face, squirting flower, whoopie cushion, etc.
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I thought so too. I asked at the summit if these changes were applicable to both PvE and PvP and got an affirmative reply (but that the actual numbers etc were not yet set in concrete).
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I'd love to see the data on the number of solo bases that are out there. My (safe) bet would be that they are sharply on the rise... especially since there isn't much, if anything, that requires supergroup membership these days (given global channels, glee mail, etc.).
Interestingly, at the recent player summit Positron commented on solo bases as a rationale against offline SG invites. His words were to the effect that: This is not what we envisioned for supergroups. We don't want everyone to go off and make their own base with just all their alts (server impacts).
I thought the comment was very strange because (a) the devs have not really done much to promote or encourage the supergroup concept in the first place. (b) people will make solo bases (and get someone to join temporarily to invite alts) regardless if there is offline sg invite capability or not.
Just another example where I scratch my head at dev thinking on SGs and bases. -
Quote:I hear what you are saying... I really do. The numbers aren't out and nothing is official. Fair enough. But it looks to me like if if this goes live I'll be more than ready to spank'em and crank'em (aside). I mean... send me to the new DA, let me solo to get my new incarnate freak on and we will sort the details out later. WHOA!DM has AoE (Shadow Maul)
On topic, I'm reserving judgement on the changes until I see them in action. I'm happy with what's announced but have seen too many announced changes that looked good on paper that included hidden changes that wrecked the whole idea. It looks like a straight-up buff for now, though, so I'm hopeful. -
Yep. I was at the summit and can confirm everything the OP said. It left me kinda stunned (in a very good way). My comment back to the devs was to the effect that I've often regretted making my main toon a Stalker (since the launch of CoV)... but no longer if this flies. I predict many will want to come back to the Stalker fold.
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Yay, fluff comes easier for a minority of the player base... that's something at least after years of not much.
Meanwhile, base bugs are pretty much at an all time high and the rank and file SG member gets zero benefit from this.
I'm not ungrateful for at least some result but pass on the dev suck up in this particular area (bases).
I
Am
Still
Waiting
For a better shake for all. -
Quote:Yeah except for the "nothing is going to happen in Issue 21" (where we got alphabetical listing of storage and, if you count 21.5 now this) and huge crit walls of text on a new editor (when the devs were all the while adding Z-axis and rotation to the existing editor) you've been spot on... the devs did do something.Would anyone object to an obligatory "I told you so" at this point?
This, if it makes it live without messing up anything else in game, will no doubt be a boon to the decorators of the world. If the package includes a banner fix and a sg screen "flashing" fix (like they say is being worked on) it will indeed be an overall great thing.
Since we're now fully rekindled with hope... here's to hoping this is just the beginning and the devs do more for SGs and people without base editing privileges and their enjoyment for their hard earned prestige. -
Classy move Fulmens (and company). I still say you have done more for the base building community these past couple of years than anybody (to include the devs). Best of luck with this latest effort.
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Wow! I remember wandering around HeroCon alone planning to skip the live event when a couple of friendly people I did not know (Liquid & Iris) said to me: "You are more than welcome to join us". It turned out our entire PUG was awesome... and you talk about fun! I kind of wish we had let Ghost Falcon take that picture of us with the cube in pieces too but it doesn't matter; because the memory is etched in my mind. Congratulations to both of you very nice folks.
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Quote:I would say this is a very germane comment that pretty much would determine the viablity of your entire argument. We have the blind commenting on the blind here because I'm in the same boat.Bear in mind that I have absolutely NO IDEA how CoH is currently programmed at this time, or what sorts of bottlenecks and constraints the programming team has to work with (never mind scheduling to actually *do* anything like this).
FWIW, I seem to remember (could be mistaken) a hardcore programming dev mentioning (in public so I don't think I'm violating any forum rules) that existing bases were text files (!) [my comment: though obviously currently not the same as AE] and that bases make up the largest code "module" (if I'm using the right term) in the entire game (!). Perhaps someone who is a little more savvy than me will be able to comment more effectively. -
Quote:You aren't gonna believe this but.. my birthday is the day before too. Hope to see you at the summit (haven't missed one in the Bay Area yet) and that we find out more about one of our jointly favorite topicsDarn it ... now *I* have to go! And my birthday is the day before ... hmmm ...
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Take your pick; the above or this:
I'm trying to figure out how the base claimable item bug and the sg banner bug were not fixed in beta... unless of course it's still another indication of the lower priority bases hold in the devs' eyes. -
So... we took two steps backward in the last issue (which were pointed out early in beta) with sg banners and multi-claimed base items and now it looks like we may soon get back to even. Sorry but, I'm not ready to declare victory on base development based on that.
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It's a shame that the Paragon Store won't be accessible from bases (though I can certainly understand the rationale for this move since bases and instance missions were causing problems). That'll make crafting and storage of Paragon Store purchased items slightly more inconvenient.
Also, I've given up trying to "read the tea leaves" for the rationale for what winds up making it through the development process for bases. At least this time I don't think there will be much of a backlash (for those of you that remember the beakers on beaker rack "improvement"). So, I'm celebrating a good thing here with alphabetical sorting.
I speculate that things like this will continue to trickle out from time to time much as they have in the past (and this is the reason no dev has gone on record saying "nothing" is happening with base development). -
I'd like to add my congratulations on a job very well done. These look fantastic... and thanks for taking player feedback into consideration. Wow!
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For every dev base "no comment" that might inspire "hope" there is a real comment that led to Nowhereville (and the years passed by).
Positron said: "All your base are belong to us".
Sunstorm said: "I'm still working on content for bases, and we have very big plans waiting in the wings."
War Witch said (which triggered the last player frenzy on this topic): "... new textures... Suggestions?"
I cannot list the number of players (including, unfortunately, yours truly) that claimed they had the inside scoop on what the devs were doing and when... who were wrong!
Are these bad people (except for me)? Were they saying bad things on purpose? Of course not!
IMHO the devs are doing the right thing by not saying anything and we players would be well served to expect nothing until it actually appears in game. Development can be a very involved process (gauntlet). It takes resources and perseverance to see things through and many efforts fall short. So far bases have failed to make the cut almost every single time (I know, I know... here's where others will say "we need to keep up the pressure". That's fine... to a point... but the ball is not in the player's court on this issue).
The opposite of hope is dooom. Believe it or not, I'm not preaching doom. Bases are not dead; nor is there any reasonable expectation that they will be wiped from the game without replacement anytime soon. People universally acknowledge great decorating things have been done with what we have and many functional items have at least some utility...despite many obvious limitations.
That said, we need to acknowledge that bases are not critical to the game, the code has "issues", and there is a constant battle for resources that bases have very rarely "won". All I'm asking is that people consider the very real possibility that what we have is what there is for quite a long time (like what we have already endured). We are far (in terms of both time and effort) from seeing results. Hope? Ok. Expect? Nope. -
So, (he asked rhetorically) does this mean (a) there is a pony in the manure somewhere (i.e. a super secret base love project the devs can't talk about) or (b) shut up and go away? Either way, I'm not buying (never did) that player base concerns are beneath dev notice or that now is particularly good time to "start a revolution" over the subject. Pass the wash basin please.
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Quote:Thanks for finding and sharing the precise reference. First time I've heard the term "committing" in the context of bases in years (and even then things were said that were not delivered; presumably due to other priorities). It'll be interesting to see exactly what happens with implementation and when.
On another note, I'm still not sure how a "Zoolanderesque pose down" logo contest rocks the base building world but I think folks are pretty "aware" it's on by now. Hope the BBC has a guest judge in mind. Using David Bowie was a brilliant stroke in the film. Have fun with it. -
I agree completely with the OP; especally with regard to how it applies to in game teaming and especially with incarnate trials. I'm working on getting my fourth toon on the server "t4'ed across the board" with available incarnate powers. I mention this, not looking for some sort of pat on the back, but to suggest that I have made quite a few trial runs in the process (most very successful and a few, particularly early, that were not). Throughout, I've been very impressed with the knowledge, patience, friendly spirit and willingness to team on Pinnacle. I am not in a large SG and do not have a well known reputation to most in game. That does not seem to matter and is a credit to my fellow players.
Like many, I have some rather strong opinions on the entire end game and its implementation. And I know for certain from reading the forum that not everyone on Pinnacle agrees with my point of view. But I would like to thank the people on Pinnacle, especially league leaders, for making my end game playing experience so pleasurable. -
I'm for anything that produces results. That includes being personally branded as a three year indignant whiner while the BBC champions the just and noble cause by igniting a revolution by throwing the figurative brick through the window (and to think it all started with a logo contest!). If you ever need a bad guy poster boy for the way to not get anything done, feel free to point a finger in this direction. Good luck (and I mean it).
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Quote:I have a lot of issues with the above. First off, we the players are not the ones who can or need to do work for base improvements. Tell you what, I'm a retiree with nothing but time on my hands. What do you want me to do (And please don't say become some kind of decorating contestant. My idea for the logo would be to make a pig with lipstick)? I've carried the water for the community up close and in person... and it just didn't matter. What do you have in mind?The Base Building Committee is currently running an event to try and rally Base Builders. The thread is on the Base Forum.
The BBC has been told by 'persons close to the Devs' (no, I can't say who) that Bases get no luv because atm they attract very little attention relatively speaking. Earlier efforts to get the Base Community to actually DO something to convince the Devs to take notice all fell through. We can make all the lists we want but we have to prove that we're interested enough to put forth effort.
The Base Community needs to show the Devs that we're willing to work for Base improvements...not just make lists of wants and demands. The BBC is planning a series of events to raise Base awareness but we NEED people to put forth the effort...not just gripe.
Like all things we want we have to be willing to work for it.
Second, with all due respect to the BBC, it's been their decision to focus on more lists in the past and more elite decorator contests in the future. I don't see the value of it... but then again nothing I've done has mattered a whole hill of beans either. So good luck BBC.
Third, there is a lot of selective hearing going on on the devs side if base issues are not collecting attention. For example, I don't know if you read any of the chat during last week's ustream broadcasts but it was very enlightening. I myself typed nothing but the comments from the community at large were loud and clear (and ignored). When the devs announced they were using a "strike team" development approach the ustream chat was a buzz with "Where's the strike team for bases?" When Crosscheck (executive type at Paragon Studios) made a passing comment about SGs (which was never explained... it could have been the server transfer thing announced later by Positron... I don't know) the chat again lit up wanting more details.
At one point other players were actually chastising ppl saying that base (and pvp) comments were not really germaine to the topic at hand. Valid point I suppose; but it's equally valid that, although these questions and remarks were frequent... they were never acknowledged let alone answered. It was all very interesting and surprising for a topic that supposedly garners "little attention". -
It's clear to me that CoH has been on an "SG unfriendly" track now for quite a long time. This pretty much started with the removal of SG specific activities and rewards (raids and redside SF) and continues with no real steps to accomodate SGs in the latest CoH gameplay advances (Praetoria, side switching and incarnates). I got a real chuckle when Paragon Studios went as far as to advertise "you don't have to belong to an elite guild" as a selling point for the queue feature. If that doesn't say something about how the devs want you feel about SGs nothing will.
None of the above shortcomings is an "oversight". Believe me when I say the OP's issues (and more) were raised during the closed beta process (when changes could have been made). However, when it comes down to the hard development resource choices, SGs (bases too for that matter) haven't made the cut for quite some time. In fact, the latest trend in development is an attempt to point people away from SGs (bases) by offering a host of alternatives for the individual player (for SGs it's things like global channels, leagues, and the queue).
I really cannot see the value of debating specific "solutions" suggested by the OP and others until or unless this entire development mindset changes. I'm with Ad Astra; I've pretty much come to grips with the situation as it is instead.