If Matt Miller makes another MMO wishlist
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-11-17 19:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I LOVED CoX's art style. Was it the highest quality of MMOs now? Nope. Would i consider it the best? Probably not. But did I love it? SURE DID!|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I wouldnt mind seeing this style in a superhero game myself. We have a american comic book style game (CO). An american styled game that tried to take it self too serious but still ended up fun when ya dont take it serious(COX), how about one that mixed both Asian style and western style? That would be cool. IMO of course. not trying to convince anyone else.
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My suggestion for what I would go with for a MMO wishlist is based on what I would like, and what I think would get mass appeal.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Mos Eisley cantina in SWG was pretty infamous as well. Star Wars, having the Twileks who were pretty much created just so the women could be sex objects (and the Zeltrons if you count stuff in the tabletop RPG - perversion is pretty much a religion for them) But I think it goes without saying that the more you use sex to sell your product, the higher percentage of those types of people you're likely to wind up with playing your game.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Exactly. It wasn't like I didn't get my own fair share of tells asking "Want to ERP" or even more blantant "Want to cyber." You know...in the T rated game
 Truthfully though, in my experience this is just popular in MMOs period :/ I was in TOR (I can make a Chiss Force User now...^_^ So, you know, it's worth playing for me now) and just standing around in the Catina in a popular enough area I sighed to myself. Not that I'm not used to it, but I just wasn't expecting it. I guess I should have. Slave Leia after all. |
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yeah
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I LOVED CoX's art style. Was it the highest quality of MMOs now? Nope. Would i consider it the best? Probably not. But did I love it? SURE DID!
My suggestion for what I would go with for a MMO wishlist is based on what I would like, and what I think would get mass appeal. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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I dont think anything from Star Wars is the best comparison though|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Exactly. It wasn't like I didn't get my own fair share of tells asking "Want to ERP" or even more blantant "Want to cyber." You know...in the T rated game
Truthfully though, in my experience this is just popular in MMOs period :/ I was in TOR (I can make a Chiss Force User now...^_^ So, you know, it's worth playing for me now) and just standing around in the Catina in a popular enough area I sighed to myself. Not that I'm not used to it, but I just wasnt expecting it. I guess I should have. Slave Leia after all. |
I mean out of 6 movies there were 2 women in the galaxy not counting dancing slaves
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Why do people think you're hating? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't know why people think I am hating.
Most of what I post is in the form of basic observations and enumeration of incidents involving the developers and their behavior. |
Terminology used by you in two quick examples in this thread alone:
- "CoH is like a rotten tooth that NCsoft has pulled for me."
- "What I value most in any business is honesty and reliability CoH never had either."
Both, at best, are pejorative statements meant to evoke an emotional response. While you may attempt to present yourself in a "neutral" manner, the wording you've used in those two examples alone shows a fairly high level of disdain for the developers and how they managed the game. ( That even extends to several forum posters that you have disagreed with on various levels. )
By using such language it shows that deep down, you're not really using a "form of basic observations and enumeration of incidents involving the developers and their behavior." You're just trying to hide behind a false wall of "neutrality".
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I don't understand why people think that I post messages on message boards.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I honestly don't know what I credit Mr. Miller with (and I do not say that in the negative sense towards him! I'm just not entirely sure what of this game is entirely within his ideas and visions and what is not, if you know what I mean. I can't credit him with all of it, but I certainly am also not taking away any of it)...
Disclaimers aside...
1) The differentiation (and true differentiation with individuals power/skill sets within a group as well as through the various combination on top of that) of actual play-experience between characters of all the many options available (and, in may cases, even within the same exact choices). The wonderful customization of CoH is not limited to the looks; It spreads through every facet of the game, as true customization should, which enables the users to place their real own individual stamp on each of their player-creations in order to feel that greater connection to the game. That level of customization also includes the player's approach - solo, small team, full team, multi-team, min-max, super-casual, RP... The more variance that the game suits, the more options, the more happy players, the more change-of-paces individual players can go through to retain freshness and enjoyment.
2) Hop on and play. Hop off and hop back on some other time, whenever I can... and never really feel like I'm falling behind or out of sync to ever hook up with others (baseline xp and difficulty curves aimed at casual players, sidekicking element to not cut options out). Really, this also fits into my number 1, but my brain is drifting away from the topic already... 
Whatever he gets up to... I hope it has that feel of a friendly gaming session that is there to have fun and not something that a corporate shill mandated had to require larger timesinks and/or efforts in order to possibly have fun some time down the (slightly) tantalizing road.
There was a great element of friendly, down-to-earth, we're just like you, family-like, we're-all-gamers-at-heart atmosphere that was actually a decision somewhere along the lines that the people working on this game made and continued to uphold throughout my time here.
That generally comes from the top down. And it requires people within to maintain that approach and mindset. They recognized that we're people and we recognized it back of them and it was mutually beneficial to all of us.
Maybe that is the biggest factor I could hope for.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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That's a fair point, re: Desdemona. Rolled my eyes at my first look at her hard enough to dislodge a contact lens.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
I dont know. I've seen plenty of half dressed characters running around in COX, many with the usual cat ears and tails. This wasa rated teen game and seen many characters push that limit with some costumes where it seems some people's kids play. With all the big boobs here in this game and ERP and etc, B&S is no worse, nor better in that regards. I mean ever since Desdemona came out and been plastered over plenty if COX artwork with her buttcheeks hanging out. Not sure how that is family wholesome.
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I suppose my biggest objection* to the B&S female characters is the character model itself: the basic anatomical framework is just absurd, even more ridiculous than the proportions available in CoH. Well, that and the ridiculous walking animations and such... It's kind of a given that any game with an extensive costume selection is going to have "tart-o-rama" possibilities. It's kind of a given for the market.
*And "objection" is really too strong a word...to each their own. Besides, it gives me something to make snarky remarks about. Gotta have that.
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
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This.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That wouldn't be a real superhero game if it was mixed in with that sutff.
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People, it has nothing to do with cultural disdain. I love me some Asian culture, art, history, food, women, alcho--errr, I'll stop there.
If anyone wants to take this and run away with some kind of "WHY U NOT LIKE ASIAN IN UR GAME", feel free to do so but you won't be having the same discussion I am.
I don't hate many things, but I hate it when people take offense with me after I say "no thanks" to their offer to insert as much <insert culture> as possible into largely western cultural artifacts in order to "improve things". This is how you LOSE something great, not how you GAIN something great. Imagine if I had enough money to buy out all the Asian-themed MMOs out there and systematically began marginalizing Asian aspects with tons of American-style patriotism, spandex, capes and masks, cowboys and indians. Would that be cool? (Hint: no, it would make me a huge d-bag.) You know, as an American, I'm well aware of the mistakes my country and culture has made in the misguided notion that it would only be helping the world to leave the American "brand" stamped all over it. It does not please me to see people falling into the same ignorant and arrogant mindsets on the behalf of other cultures. There is a difference between celebrating our differences, and the assimilation of anything different. Just ask the Borg.
Since the 1930s, the comic book super hero ethos has been primarily western in scope, and has only recently began incorporating multicultural flares to the extent that we see today. That's a good thing, but for goodness sake, with only four (soon to be three) MMO games covering the genre, it can be considered to be on the endangered species list compared to the hundreds of Asian-themed MMOs out there.
I'm not saying "keep Asian influences out of comic book MMOs"--after all, the comics don't do this. But you'll please forgive me when I scrutinize those who seem to think my western culture can't stand on its own two legs without "help" from Asian subscriber numbers. This kind of thinking is what leads to homogeneous cultural artifacts in whatever forms of art you enjoy, and ten years from now when you log into the new "Cowboys in the Old West" MMO and find it filled to the brim with ninjas, samurais, katanas, throwing stars, a kibun meter and maybe two or three actual cowboy NPCs in the corner of an out-of-the-way zone, you'll finally be forced to agree with my point here. Unless, of course, you're loving the game too much to care what your fan-demands have accomplished to stamp out of existence.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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He'll also probably make his in-game character so unlikable that I'd never be able to write about him. Her. It. Whatever the hell he ends up creating.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
If Matt Miller makes another MMO.....
I'm pretty sure his in-game character will have hair. |
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Originally Posted by Dollhouse
It's kind of a given that any game with an extensive costume selection is going to have "tart-o-rama" possibilities.
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
I generally had a lot of time with the enhancement/slotting system - that seemed to work really well
But I really began to dislike the number of different reward currencies there were in game - the various different forms of salvage, catalysts, converters, merits, etc etc ad infinitum. It seemed to just get out of hand and every damned issue there was some new kind of reward drop when it was unnecessary.
Thelonious Monk
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ROFL!!!! If you create Tart O'Rama, it would be amusing to see her.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Crud, now I want to create a character called "Tart O'Rama." Kind of a cross between Flambeaux and Desdemona.
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[As an aside, inspired by your "Avatar - COH style" youtube video, I created Scarlet O'Tera for the House of Tera SG on Justice, tho' she's now living on Exalted (House of Tera VIPs SG, of course.) "Fiddle Dee Dee, $target!"]
aka @Kristoff von Gelmini, leader of small SG bases (Infinity/Victory/Virtue/Protector), member of The House of Tera (Justice) and various others (Champion/Infinity/Victory/Guardian/Freedom).
This should all go in the "Proxy Titan Hate Thread" thread, imo, since it's off topic here.
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I took the line you're quoting from Golden Girl as humor! Perhaps I'm mistaken and/or perhaps she wrote that prior to being offered and accepting an official position while being active in no official capacity at Titan.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
In addition the Titan Crew have already failed the test before they even get going.
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Back to the Original Post topic, there's lots about City of Heroes I like and many of those things have been noted in previous posts. "Feeling like a Hero" is one of them. The landscape/background art (I don't know the proper term) is another.
aka @Kristoff von Gelmini, leader of small SG bases (Infinity/Victory/Virtue/Protector), member of The House of Tera (Justice) and various others (Champion/Infinity/Victory/Guardian/Freedom).
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CoH was pretty awful when it came to the female model, yo. The lowest you could slide the chest slider for females is a C cup, and you have the ability to make them absolutely enormous. The waist is, by default, unnaturally tiny, and only near the largest setting does it look pretty normal. The female walk animation makes your character look like they're walking down a runway at all times, and the run animation isn't much better. And lets not forget that entire stretch of time where, in every new costume pack we got on the market, the men would get coats, vests, etc. while the women's only option were revealing corsets and collars.|
Originally Posted by Dollhouse
I suppose my biggest objection* to the B&S female characters is the character model itself: the basic anatomical framework is just absurd, even more ridiculous than the proportions available in CoH. Well, that and the ridiculous walking animations and such... It's kind of a given that any game with an extensive costume selection is going to have "tart-o-rama" possibilities. It's kind of a given for the market.
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This game was made by horndog men and it shows.
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They went with the comicbook hour glass figure. And max slider made to look normal? Last I saw of a max waist slider, the character looked like they were a little overweight (unless you're calling that the normal). Sooo, being skinny isn't normal?|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
CoH was pretty awful when it came to the female model, yo. The lowest you could slide the chest slider for females is a C cup, and you have the ability to make them absolutely enormous. The waist is, by default, unnaturally tiny, and only near the largest setting does it look pretty normal. The female walk animation makes your character look like they're walking down a runway at all times, and the run animation isn't much better. And lets not forget that entire stretch of time where, in every new costume pack we got on the market, the men would get coats, vests, etc. while the women's only option were revealing corsets and collars.
This game was made by horndog men and it shows. |
Though women "only getting" was never true. Yes, they didn't get certain coats and vests (which WAS suckie) but only the gunslinger pack was kinda meh. Witch set had non revealing option, the fact that people always focused on it having a revealing option made me realize the devs couldn't win either way. Players were going to ***** to *****.
CoH's walk is much better than CO's.
Interrestingly enough, for all the complaints onthe forums about not getting certain costume options, when made available, I hardly saw anyone use them, while people still used the ones people complained about on the forums.
Maybe the devs knew the player base better than the forum users, after all.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The irony of people complaining about other games objectifying women or hypersexualizing the medium is at best hypocritical.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
They went with the comicbook hour glass figure. And max slider made to look normal? Last I saw of a max waist slider, the character looked like they were a little overweight (unless you're calling that the normal). Sooo, being skinny isn't normal?
Though women "only getting" was never true. Yes, they didn't get certain coats and vests (which WAS suckie) but only the gunslinger pack was kinda meh. Witch set had non revealing option, the fact that people always focused on it having a revealing option made me realize the devs couldn't win either way. Players were going to ***** to *****. CoH's walk is much better than CO's. Interrestingly enough, for all the complaints onthe forums about not getting certain costume options, when made available, I hardly saw anyone use them, while people still used the ones people complained about on the forums. Maybe the devs knew the player base better than the forum users, after all. |
Not like CoH didn't do its bit. The truly strange thing is every time people complain about the sex in blade and soul, it just makes me more curious about a game I wouldn't have given a second look.
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I'll bet |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The truly strange thing is every time people complain about the sex in blade and soul, it just makes me more curious about a game I wouldn't have given a second look.
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No argument at all...my point is that B&S takes it much, much further...and any perusal of the available videos and stills makes apparent. And again, I'm not in any way objecting to any of that. There's a market for that sort of thing, and game designers respond to the market, like any business.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
CoH was pretty awful when it came to the female model, yo. The lowest you could slide the chest slider for females is a C cup, and you have the ability to make them absolutely enormous. The waist is, by default, unnaturally tiny, and only near the largest setting does it look pretty normal. The female walk animation makes your character look like they're walking down a runway at all times, and the run animation isn't much better. And lets not forget that entire stretch of time where, in every new costume pack we got on the market, the men would get coats, vests, etc. while the women's only option were revealing corsets and collars.
This game was made by horndog men and it shows. |
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
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It's the internet.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I'll bet
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You don't find porn, porn finds you.
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I also attributed much of the design to the classic superhero look. Though I would've preferred to make it possible to make girls that are smaller in one place and bigger in another, at least it's easily possible to make a character who is modest. |
Originally Posted by Dollhouse
No argument at all...my point is that B&S takes it much, much further...and any perusal of the available videos and stills makes apparent. And again, I'm not in any way objecting to any of that. There's a market for that sort of thing, and game designers respond to the market, like any business.
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You can't even go for a hike in B&S without it looking like a catwalk at a fashion show.
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Or like a stripper heading over to the pole...|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
I also attributed much of the design to the classic superhero look. Though I would've preferred to make it possible to make girls that are smaller in one place and bigger in another, at least it's easily possible to make a character who is modest.
You can't even go for a hike in B&S without it looking like a catwalk at a fashion show. |
Fredericks of Hollywood: for all your adventuring gear needs.
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
The concept "artist" for Boobs&Sleaze doesn't seem to have ever seen a real woman - which is probably why he was hired, as he shares that status with half the game's target audience.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
CoH was pretty awful when it came to the female model, yo. The lowest you could slide the chest slider for females is a C cup, and you have the ability to make them absolutely enormous. The waist is, by default, unnaturally tiny, and only near the largest setting does it look pretty normal. The female walk animation makes your character look like they're walking down a runway at all times, and the run animation isn't much better. And lets not forget that entire stretch of time where, in every new costume pack we got on the market, the men would get coats, vests, etc. while the women's only option were revealing corsets and collars.
This game was made by horndog men and it shows. |
The game was faithful to the genre and reflected it. I concede your observations about the avatars not reflecting standard human proportions by default, unless modified by the user. I thought (and had been told by 7 and 8 year vets) that "Walk" had been specifically created at player request for use in Costume Competitions, red carpets and runways. The first day "Walk" was released my male character was asked by two female characters to walk for them. They wanted to see to compare it to female Walk, which they thought a bit overdone. That was the only complaint I heard about it in-game ever, and knew plenty of women players, teens to 50's who made a pretty and/or sexy character if they felt like it (many did) or not, same as the guys. One friend had a number of female characters: one as tall and thin as possible, another as wide and round as possible, and another as close to realistic adult woman proportions as he could manage. (He also crafted a fairly impressive felonious Finch character, based on the bird.) A 70 year old friend of mine thought all the avatars looked "sexual" but to my mind they look no more sexual than Barbie and Ken, and she didn't see the robots, zombies, reptile, wolf or cow toons, etc . Besides, I'd grown up reading Marvel and DC in the 60's and 70's (as well as comicbook anthologies from the 30's and 40's) so the look of CoH matched my expectations.
If one wishes to assert that the superhero genre was created by horndog men, or more precisely that the comicbooks defining the Golden and Silver Ages were created by men to be read by boys and men and that this artwork reflects a cultural aesthetic from those eras which one can readily recreate in City of Heroes (by default, along with a number of pre-designed costumes), then I would agree. This game is faithful to the genre.
LOL, Another_Fan, ROFL at the cartoon and battlecry of "Eyes Up Here!"
aka @Kristoff von Gelmini, leader of small SG bases (Infinity/Victory/Virtue/Protector), member of The House of Tera (Justice) and various others (Champion/Infinity/Victory/Guardian/Freedom).
B&S isn't going to get an M rating just because it has boobie physics or that the default outfit in the character designer for women looks like it came from a Victoria's Secret catalog. It'll get it due to the Mortal Kombat level of violence and gratuitous use of blood hoses.
That said their is something about the detail level of the character designer as well as the way you can capture "body" data in game of another player's character that makes it feel squicky to me. Maybe because the character fidgets and blinks or that you can get them to jiggle when you spin them around that makes them seem more alive than our breathing Barbie model. You aren't designing "action figures" or Mego superhero toy clad in an outfit but are sculpting an underlying body to order and then are able to fly the camera all around, zooming in and out to inspect it. It seems excessively voyeuristic to me.
As for their choice in concept artist and his messed up human proportions, is it that much different if someone built an MMO around the art of Boris Vallejo, Julie Bell, Frank Frazetta or other western fantasy artists. I've never tried Age of Conan so I don't know if the art style is modeled after those artists or what the character creator is like.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
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Truthfully though, in my experience this is just popular in MMOs period :/ I was in TOR (I can make a Chiss Force User now...^_^ So, you know, it's worth playing for me now) and just standing around in the Catina in a popular enough area I sighed to myself.
Not that I'm not used to it, but I just wasnt expecting it. I guess I should have. Slave Leia after all.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection