Champions Online: just doesn't cut it.
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-10-06 24:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
... ^^^ That's exactly the thing that makes me very, very wary about investing too much interest in CO: it could literally go at any moment. And with my luck, it would.
Hurry up, Plan Z. Please.
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Very possible, but remember that updates cost money and I think there probably wont be another set of devs like the one here. While silence and no updates constantly being churned out, doesnt automatically means failure, but it doesnt automatically means success either. Some companies will downsize to the last dev before closing down a game while other companies can and will close down a game at the first dip below expected profits. |
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
I've been reading the CO forums lately, and one thing that really worries me is that there seems to be nothing on the horizon there. Unlike CoH, which has been getting a new zone every two issues (and huge zone revamps on the issues in between) and a constant flow of new powersets, CO has gotten exactly one new zone since it launched (and that addition was years ago) and there's nothing about any new powersets on the horizon (except for an occasional reskin of existing travel powers)
If a game like CoH, one with excited devs and frequent content updates, can die so abruptly, can a game with silent devs and no content updates have any long-term viability? I don't want to actually find myself liking it only to have it also yanked out from under me. |
Although I heard some features are new, small by comparison of what we are used to, butstill update, like the Alerts I heard is a recent add. Not to mention, it is said they have a smaller player number, less devs, and thus probably got less budget not to mention they are still tryign to work out the bugs and other stuff.
I personally think that game have a good number of zones as is. Although, I wouldnt mind a couple of more. But not too many more. I think it's waste of resource to have a bunch of underused maps that look like they took a lot of time and resources to make like many maps on COX side of the house.
The powersets are already numerous andi n game I heard talks about them working on a new powerset but it is strange that no mention on the forum. So what I heard may be a rumor or people dont talk as much about things on the forum there. Then again given that the devs there are a bit more mum than the ones here, it's no surprise there isnt much talk about changes.
The way Paragon Studios did buisness and how close the devs were to the communityis probably a rare occurance in games of this size. The downside, is it might have given off a false sense of security.
I dont think CO will last another 5-6 years, but then again when COX was CO age, many people didnt think it would last 8 years total. And even COX had a slight end of game scare prior but was quickly bought by NCSoft. Some say that under Jack, this game would of died long ago. Me personally, I didnt see much problem with Jack but he didnt seem as open as the devs that followed.
Unfortunately I think many players here got used to the relatively rare dev-player relationship and most other MMO devs will seem stand-offish even though they are within normal range of dev-player relationship in most games. Even in large games like WoW which dont seem to be going anywhere do not come out with updates as often as COX, some of WoW updates are whacky as hell, like the panda stuff, and the devs dont seem to talk much to the players like they do here. Some would describe it as a "take a number and wait in line" feel to it. Which make sense given their massive population, yet they are still around.
Maybe in the future the dev-player relationship and the passion the devs seem to openly display will become the norm instead of the COX exception.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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Every source of dependency that lies beyond one's control is a sword of Damocles hanging over one's entertainment.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
... ^^^ That's exactly the thing that makes me very, very wary about investing too much interest in CO: it could literally go at any moment. And with my luck, it would.
Hurry up, Plan Z. Please. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Got my monies worth on the LTS to that game well before it went f2p, and the free points I get each month since it went f2p has been steadily reducing my initial investment cuz I haven't spent a dime on it since it launched.|
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
I've been reading the CO forums lately, and one thing that really worries me is that there seems to be nothing on the horizon there. Unlike CoH, which has been getting a new zone every two issues (and huge zone revamps on the issues in between) and a constant flow of new powersets, CO has gotten exactly one new zone since it launched (and that addition was years ago) and there's nothing about any new powersets on the horizon (except for an occasional reskin of existing travel powers)
If a game like CoH, one with excited devs and frequent content updates, can die so abruptly, can a game with silent devs and no content updates have any long-term viability? I don't want to actually find myself liking it only to have it also yanked out from under me. |
They can cancel it at any time.
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Yep. Right now its the best superhero thing going and I'm gonna keep enjoying it as long as I can.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Every source of dependency that lies beyond one's control is a sword of Damocles hanging over one's entertainment.
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(And I'm still optimistic that the lockboxes mean more devs will be incoming.)
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Since this thread seems to have some CO experts hanging out in it...
Recreated my namesake blaster in CO and, in general, been having a good time. At level 20 started the Whiteout "arc" (or whatever). It's been fun so far (although the difficulty of the foes and the ambushes get frustrating at times), but I've run into a brick wall:
That commander in mission #4 (the supervillain who you mostly defeat who then turns into three master villains, who then becomes a supervillain again with about 21,000 hit points). While I could go into a rant about game balance (21,000 hit points? At level 21? AND it's foe #5 of a series of rather difficult foes? *Really?*), I'm really interested in what my options are for getting past this encounter.
Does CO have a "complete mission automatically" feature for if the mission is bugged or you can't get past it, like CoH does?
If not, is there a particular consumable that would help here? Something that could make me practically invincible long enough to do 21,000 points of damage? Would summoning in as many pets as I can muster to attack him and then I just block all the time work?
Any advice?
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
I checked on their Champs forums a month or so ago and saw that folks considered it a bug that the boss wasnt supposed to split into equally powerful versions of himself. Really surprised that it STILL isnt fixed.
It was the last straw for me for Champions and I havent logged on again since.
Otherwise, maybe you could get a group together to go do him. Fro a solo perspecive it was just painful. 
Let us stifle under mud at the pond's edge
and affirm that it is fitting
and delicious to lose everything. ~ Donald Hall
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Okay, I also tried Whiteout. It's essentially "premium" content.|
Originally Posted by Coulomb2
Since this thread seems to have some CO experts hanging out in it...
Recreated my namesake blaster in CO and, in general, been having a good time. At level 20 started the Whiteout "arc" (or whatever). It's been fun so far (although the difficulty of the foes and the ambushes get frustrating at times), but I've run into a brick wall: That commander in mission #4 (the supervillain who you mostly defeat who then turns into three master villains, who then becomes a supervillain again with about 21,000 hit points). While I could go into a rant about game balance (21,000 hit points? At level 21? AND it's foe #5 of a series of rather difficult foes? *Really?*), I'm really interested in what my options are for getting past this encounter. Does CO have a "complete mission automatically" feature for if the mission is bugged or you can't get past it, like CoH does? If not, is there a particular consumable that would help here? Something that could make me practically invincible long enough to do 21,000 points of damage? Would summoning in as many pets as I can muster to attack him and then I just block all the time work? Any advice? |
Advice. Don't. It's KNOWN buggy as hell.
You probably didn't get far enough yet but there's other problems.
In one of the sections, it's possible to knock enemies into geometry, getting them stuck there. They're able to shoot at you but you can't attack them. Worse, it's geometry right next to NPCs you have to rescue and the "rescue them" is a click with a timer. So if you get hit it gets interrupted.
Another section has you going into buildings and going int different rooms. Every few times through, some of the doors will glitch so you can't click to open them.
Also, the last mission has enemies essentially spamming perma-hold on you with ZERO recourse. So, at this point in time, Whiteout is utterly unable to be completed.
Just open up your main map (hit M) and drop the mission.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Unfortunately this statement is true.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Yep. Right now its the best superhero thing going and I'm gonna keep enjoying it as long as I can.
|
Decided I'd been too harsh with DCUO. Gave it another try.
It's still a gorgeous game. But has a lot of problems. Foremost being the absolute WORST chat system in the universe.
Second being the playerbase, there's a few helpful players over there. But, on the whole, they could have dredged Freedom for the worst and dumbest and still gotten a nicer group of people.
Open world hunts for everything. Oh, did I mention that it's also open-world? Where the enemies can jump from level 5 stuff to level 30 in a single block?
So yeah. CO is still suffering MASSIVELY in comparison to CoH. But it is head and shoulders (and navel) above DCUO.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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These Task-Force-like arcs all have at least one encounter like this, where you face a supervillain that you can't solo, or are inundated by more mobs than a level 21 character can possibly withstand (typically because you don't have enough defenses, which is especially true for blaster-like characters).|
Originally Posted by Coulomb2
That commander in mission #4 (the supervillain who you mostly defeat who then turns into three master villains, who then becomes a supervillain again with about 21,000 hit points). While I could go into a rant about game balance (21,000 hit points? At level 21? AND it's foe #5 of a series of rather difficult foes? *Really?*), I'm really interested in what my options are for getting past this encounter.
|
That doesn't mean the game is unbalanced or broken, it means that these encounters are designed to be played by more than one player (or by a well-equipped level 40 character). These arcs should be compared to CoH's TFs that have one or more AVs. CoH AVs have ridiculous amounts of hit points: for example, we don't consider the Synapse TF broken just because we can't solo the AV at the end with level 20 characters.
CoH, however, won't let us start TFs unless we have enough characters to give the typical team a fighting chance to win those encounters. CO often gives you a warning for really tough missions, telling you the minimum recommended team size. I don't think they do that for Whiteout and the other arcs like it, but they really should.
The other advantage of CO is that when you get stuck on a mission like this, you can keep your progress in that arc, and go make 10 levels and try again. I'm not sure, but you may also be able to invite players to that mission to help you out, which you just can't do in CoH. (CO also lets you keep all your powers when you exemp down.)
Mission management in CO has a lot of problems, but it's a lot more flexible that CoH's, and once you know how it works it does have several advantages.
CO has a lot of problems, and I definitely like CoH more. But it's a moot point, because CoH is going away. The real question is whether CO is better than what's left, and so far it's the only one that comes close.
I found that I resented CO not for what it actually was, but because it was different. You really need to judge games based on what they are, and how well they implement the design. At first I really hated CO's blocking mechanic and the energy builder, but mostly because they were different. They do have some advantages that don't become obvious until later.
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Spam Lead Tempest, Lock 'n Load, and Bountiful Chi Resurgence like there's no tomorrow. Probably also helped that I was 36 when I took them on too.|
Originally Posted by Coulomb2
That commander in mission #4 (the supervillain who you mostly defeat who then turns into three master villains, who then becomes a supervillain again with about 21,000 hit points). While I could go into a rant about game balance (21,000 hit points? At level 21? AND it's foe #5 of a series of rather difficult foes? *Really?*), I'm really interested in what my options are for getting past this encounter.
Does CO have a "complete mission automatically" feature for if the mission is bugged or you can't get past it, like CoH does? If not, is there a particular consumable that would help here? Something that could make me practically invincible long enough to do 21,000 points of damage? Would summoning in as many pets as I can muster to attack him and then I just block all the time work? Any advice? |
Other than that... I can't say. I'd doubt I'd take that encounter on with anyone who doesn't have a spammable PBAoE like Lead Tempest or Hurricane. In fact, I find myself gravitating away from alts without one since they make spawn clearing so much easier. Cryptic found out how to make nukes work, though perhaps too well.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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This times one thousand.|
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
I've been reading the CO forums lately, and one thing that really worries me is that there seems to be nothing on the horizon there. Unlike CoH, which has been getting a new zone every two issues (and huge zone revamps on the issues in between) and a constant flow of new powersets, CO has gotten exactly one new zone since it launched (and that addition was years ago) and there's nothing about any new powersets on the horizon (except for an occasional reskin of existing travel powers)
If a game like CoH, one with excited devs and frequent content updates, can die so abruptly, can a game with silent devs and no content updates have any long-term viability? I don't want to actually find myself liking it only to have it also yanked out from under me. |
They haven't added any substantial new content since early 2010, yet they constantly have their hand out with the cash shop.
Our devs added the market and content creation increased substantially. You could see the money was being invested back into the game. Costumes, missions, power sets all released regularly for free and for pay.
CO added their cash store and they manage to put out maybe a single costume set in a year, re-skins of existing travel powers and zero missions and gameplay content. And none of it 'free'.
Yes the servers are still on but the game is essentially brain dead. So don't get too attached because I wont be surprised if it's not there a year from now. Especially if they don't get the big population and spending boom they're expecting from CoH closing.
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Another way to look at it is that Perfect World is spending less on Champs, possibly making it more profitable. If they can keep the game going as is with small content updates, I would be happy. I sort of feel like COH got really ambitious towards the end, NCSoft must have dumped tons into the game. On the other hand, there's no risk (or at least decreased risk) of not making a big enough profit when you're not really putting that much in anyways.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This times one thousand.
They haven't added any substantial new content since early 2010, yet they constantly have their hand out with the cash shop. Our devs added the market and content creation increased substantially. You could see the money was being invested back into the game. Costumes, missions, power sets all released regularly for free and for pay. CO added their cash store and they manage to put out maybe a single costume set in a year, re-skins of existing travel powers and zero missions and gameplay content. And none of it 'free'. Yes the servers are still on but the game is essentially brain dead. So don't get too attached because I wont be surprised if it's not there a year from now. Especially if they don't get the big population and spending boom they're expecting from CoH closing. . |
And for the record, the mods system and specializations along with alerts seem like pretty new updates. I would sort of equate the former to the Alpha slot/adding new IO sets and the latter to DFB and DIB. There are also what I understand to be some great new power additions, including their version of Hide/Assassin's Strike. Oh, and there's a Halloween event going on right now too.
I know that none of that stuff is huge, but it seems to me like a reasonable amount of newer content for a game that probably doesn't make a ton of money. I also just started playing a little over a month ago, so I have all the old stuff to check out too, which is new to me.
I'm lv 40 and theres not much to do. People rarely group so you're stuck solo grindan for merits. Also I think the Halloween event is recycled every year
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This times one thousand.
They haven't added any substantial new content since early 2010, yet they constantly have their hand out with the cash shop. Our devs added the market and content creation increased substantially. You could see the money was being invested back into the game. Costumes, missions, power sets all released regularly for free and for pay. CO added their cash store and they manage to put out maybe a single costume set in a year, re-skins of existing travel powers and zero missions and gameplay content. And none of it 'free'. Yes the servers are still on but the game is essentially brain dead. So don't get too attached because I wont be surprised if it's not there a year from now. Especially if they don't get the big population and spending boom they're expecting from CoH closing. . |
I think they're more focused on adding new stuff to STO than CO. STO has a much larger available fanbase to attract.
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This is true, but being about to endure one horrid stroke of that sword makes me far, far less inclined to want to endure another one in the [potential] near future. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Every source of dependency that lies beyond one's control is a sword of Damocles hanging over one's entertainment.
|
Having watched the Broadcast chat in CO, it seems even by player admission it is obvious that this game is almost completely stagnant, which makes me wonder A LOT about its long-term viability.
I am sure we will never know, but it would be interesting to know how much of a chilling effect CoX's closure will have on its players who move on to other venues, especially those who were only playing the one game [CoX]. It has made me really, really reluctant to invest time and especially, CASH in something that can get yanked out from under me tomorrow - which I would think would be a bad idea indeed for MMOs running real-world cash shops. How many are feeling a similar reluctance?
We will never know.
Yeah...Champions Online is like the cartoon to the City of Heroes movie.
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This is the thing CoH's closure has really shined a million-candle-power floodlight on.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I am sure we will never know, but it would be interesting to know how much of a chilling effect CoX's closure will have on its players who move on to other venues, especially those who were only playing the one game [CoX]. It has made me really, really reluctant to invest time and especially, CASH in something that can get yanked out from under me tomorrow - which I would think would be a bad idea indeed for MMOs running real-world cash shops. How many are feeling a similar reluctance?
We will never know. |
Granted, NCSoft has a penchant for killing MMOs. But the CoH closure really highlights how transient they can be. Even if they're still making decent cash.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Try 'recycled every month'.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Also I think the Halloween event is recycled every year
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IIRC, they run it every full moon.
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Well CO might end tomorrow, it might end 4 years from now. I never put any money into a game I'm going to miss. I think I misplace more money than money I put into games. I knew it was no return in investment so I considered it like a movie ticket for movies that will never be released in any other media outside that theater. See the movie, want to see it again, buy another ticket and when it no longer is showing in that theater, I dont go boycott the theater because I want to see the movie some more over and over. I find another movie. The next movie may not be as good as the old one, but it may hold my interest for the moment until it to goes away.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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everything can be yanked out from under you tomorrow :your work, your family even your own life. Are you reluctant to invest time and cash in them too?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
This is true, but being about to endure one horrid stroke of that sword makes me far, far less inclined to want to endure another one in the [potential] near future.
Having watched the Broadcast chat in CO, it seems even by player admission it is obvious that this game is almost completely stagnant, which makes me wonder A LOT about its long-term viability. I am sure we will never know, but it would be interesting to know how much of a chilling effect CoX's closure will have on its players who move on to other venues, especially those who were only playing the one game [CoX]. It has made me really, really reluctant to invest time and especially, CASH in something that can get yanked out from under me tomorrow - which I would think would be a bad idea indeed for MMOs running real-world cash shops. How many are feeling a similar reluctance? We will never know. |
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just had a vision of that scene in the first final destination film where the girl gets smashed by the bus out of the blue. |
Originally Posted by savagedeacon_NA
everything can be yanked out from under you tomorrow :your work, your family even your own life. Are you reluctant to invest time and cash in them too?
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That is how quick life can end. In any moment.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Non sequiter. Participating in real life is not optional, unless one suicides. |
Originally Posted by savagedeacon_NA
everything can be yanked out from under you tomorrow :your work, your family even your own life. Are you reluctant to invest time and cash in them too?
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My entertainment: optional.
And since life itself involves tolerating intense, high-stress risk, I am LESS LIKELY to be wanting to endure that in my entertainment, too.
NCsoft is taking things from me, that I consider to have ACTUAL MONETARY VALUE. I spent thousands of hours of time, and hundreds of real-world dollars, on my alts. NCSoft is taking all that away from me - and from us - without so much as a sincere by-your-leave. "yeah, we love you guys, and you mean a lot to us!" *YANKS RUG OUT FROM UNDER US*
You bet your bottom dollar I will think once, twice and then thrice before I give them or any MMO publisher the opportunity to do it again.
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You address this a bit below, but we *would* consider Synapse broken if it suggested a team size of 1-5 and claimed to scale with level and number of people on the team, but you still ran into a full strength AV at the end and the spawn sizes still were balanced for a minimum 4 person team. After all, if it's unlikely you could solo it, it should give the recommended range as 2-5 or 3-5 or whatever seems appropriate. CoH's Oro arcs do exactly that - flat out warn you you might not be able to complete them solo. You can try, but don't be surprised if you run into a 'brick wall' as it were.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
That doesn't mean the game is unbalanced or broken, it means that these encounters are designed to be played by more than one player (or by a well-equipped level 40 character). These arcs should be compared to CoH's TFs that have one or more AVs. CoH AVs have ridiculous amounts of hit points: for example, we don't consider the Synapse TF broken just because we can't solo the AV at the end with level 20 characters.
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I've actually noticed several CO missions that really should suggest a team size of 2 or more, rather than the 1-5 most of them claim. To be fair, I've soloed missions that suggested a team size of two - and I often suffered multiple defeats when doing so. That doesn't bother me in the least; I was warned, and I chose to solo anyway.
For the record, the ambushes that overwhelm me also don't bother me in any way *unless they prevent me from completing the mission* - Yeah, I might be playing most of the rest of the mission star-free, but as long as each 'respawn' makes progress, I'm fine. I can tangibly advance the mission solo.
But yes, if it suggests a team size of 1-5, claims to scale to level, and then pits you against something that you just can't make progress against without gaining 10 levels, that's unbalanced. At the very least it should either suggest a team size of 2-5, OR some other guideline (e.g. the team size suggestion be something like "2-5, or 1-5 with level 32 or above characters" - or whatever).
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| CoH, however, won't let us start TFs unless we have enough characters to give the typical team a fighting chance to win those encounters. CO often gives you a warning for really tough missions, telling you the minimum recommended team size. I don't think they do that for Whiteout and the other arcs like it, but they really should. |
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| The other advantage of CO is that when you get stuck on a mission like this, you can keep your progress in that arc, and go make 10 levels and try again. I'm not sure, but you may also be able to invite players to that mission to help you out, which you just can't do in CoH. (CO also lets you keep all your powers when you exemp down.) |
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| I found that I resented CO not for what it actually was, but because it was different. You really need to judge games based on what they are, and how well they implement the design. At first I really hated CO's blocking mechanic and the energy builder, but mostly because they were different. They do have some advantages that don't become obvious until later. |
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
I've been reading the CO forums lately, and one thing that really worries me is that there seems to be nothing on the horizon there. Unlike CoH, which has been getting a new zone every two issues (and huge zone revamps on the issues in between) and a constant flow of new powersets, CO has gotten exactly one new zone since it launched (and that addition was years ago) and there's nothing about any new powersets on the horizon (except for an occasional reskin of existing travel powers)
If a game like CoH, one with excited devs and frequent content updates, can die so abruptly, can a game with silent devs and no content updates have any long-term viability? I don't want to actually find myself liking it only to have it also yanked out from under me.