NC Soft: My patience is almost exhausted
By
ArisenCrusader,
Posted on: 2012-09-16 04:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Dear SyphonStrike,
NCSoft does not read these forums.
They don't care. I believe the only reason they didn't shut the game down immediately was to make it harder for people to dispute charges, by saying they are still using the service. Also it clears out 3 month and 1 month subscribers so they have no recourse. I suspect it also lets quite a few 6/12 month subbers run out of time.
For the small group who has time beyond that. "#*%@ 'em!!" Without doubt some will just not want to go through the hassle (e.g. me). For the remaining, they can just deal with it as it comes. Customer service is not their goal.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
NcSoft has shown that they do not care about their loyal customers and that they are more than willing to take our money and run. I do not understand why they are so willing to alienate their customer base. Thousands of us are deciding that they can no longer be trusted with our money. People who don't play COH are having second thoughts about investing money into games that WILL be unplugged on a whim.
We all know that stealing is wrong. The corporate culture of NCSoft seems to have forgotten that lesson. We will remember. The world is listening.
triumph
As has been posted by someone in the know over on the Titan forums: No news is good news.
In all likelihood, Paragon Studios and NCsoft are still in the aforementioned "delicate negotiations" and are under a strict NDA. The fact that we haven't heard anything from Posi, or War Witch, or Z, is actually a good sign. It means they're otherwise occupied, and since we know that there are negotiations ongoing, the silence should be read as good news.
The silence means "We're not dead yet."
I know it sucks. I, like everyone else, want to know NOW, but it'll take as long as it'll take, and I'd rather be uncomfortable with the silence now and find out later it was because Paragon was fighting for their life (and succeeded) than do something to mess up whatever's going on now.
Also keep in mind, we aren't talking about Paragon being in talks with just one person. We're talking about Paragon talking with NCsoft, which is going to require all sorts of fun meetings and internal discussions and we'll get back to you's. This isn't going to be a short process. But at LEAST there is something going on that we are aware of. Its better then nothing at all.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
Quote:
Dear City of Heroes community.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Dear SyphonStrike,
NCSoft does not read these forums. |
NCSoft are not concerned about the opinions of 1% of their customer base.
I honestly believe that they expected this when they pulled the plug and the simple reason they're not replying to or even acknowledging the efforts that are being made is simply because they know it makes far more sense just to sit it out. You can complain all you like, make all the pleas and efforts to change things that you like, it's not going to change a thing.
I would dearly love to be wrong about this, but the longer it goes on without any response at all, the more likely I think this is the reality of the situation.
I played CoH, I loved every moment of it, but nothing lasts for ever.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
To be honest, I really don't think NCSoft has someone monitoring the forum to scurry back to their CEO/board to report what we're saying. And there is no way they wouldn't expect to have people complaining about the situation.
That being said, two weeks is too short a time to expect any news. It takes time to line up investors, come up with a business plan and learn if you have a pool of talent willing to take the risk of working for a start-up. Business moves slowly.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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Dear SteelRat,|
Originally Posted by SteelRat
I played CoH, I loved every moment of it, but nothing lasts for ever.
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What I'm about to say is not specifically directed at you but rather in consideration of the kind of hecklers we've had in the major gaming sites ... but I really dislike your sort of cavalier attitude toward MMOs that get killed off. It's one thing to not expect our efforts to have any impact, but the people who say things like "get over it, the game's dead, they've made their decision, go play the latest hot new MMO" get on my nerves pretty bad.
Most MMOs are forever lost when the plug's pulled and the databases are wiped, unlike practically all other video games. With other games, when the company goes out of business, or their publisher gives them the axe, copies of their games aren't rendered useless (excepting cases with truly draconc DRM, but that's another story). People continue to cherish and play games that are 20, 30, heck, 40 years old and whose developing studios are long gone. The games can get republished on virtual consoles, or re-released some other way. They don't have an expiration date, they don't vanish leaving only memories and scarce movies, screenshots, or abandoned fansites.
Markovia had a point when he said that the closure of games like City of Heroes is like erasing a part of our cultural record. It's a lot like what Jason Scott said of the abrupt no-warning closure of AOL Hometown and what he also said when he founded the Archie Team to prevent more wanton destruction of culture, history, and content when a site decides to shut down its services. Shrugging one's shoulders and saying "nothing lasts forever" comes off to me as welcoming the transient nature companies like NCSoft impose on this genre. But there's plenty of MMOs of CoH's age or older which show it doesn't have to be this way.
Do you guys really think they are going to fire and disband an arm of their organization and then change their minds and rehire everyone? I cant remember anyone ever doing that. Think about the office morale, employee loyalty would be in the toilet.
triumph
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Yeah, I can't imagine a good outcome for Paragon Studios. Maybe someone can salvage the game's code, but I'm not holding my breath. All my experience with corporate politics tells me there's rarely any second-guessing when a decision has been made. You can't be seen to be a waffler because you're perceived as weak. That attitude is probably a thousand times more powerful in Korean culture.
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Originally Posted by Ground_Fault
Do you guys really think they are going to fire and disband an arm of their organization and then change their minds and rehire everyone? I cant remember anyone ever doing that. Think about the office morale, employee loyalty would be in the toilet.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I would be genuinely surprised if they did. I'm pretty sure TonyV has not been campaigning in this direction, anyway.|
Originally Posted by Ground_Fault
Do you guys really think they are going to fire and disband an arm of their organization and then change their minds and rehire everyone?
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Yeah, I can't imagine a good outcome for Paragon Studios.
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The best we can hope for is that they decide to keep a server open for us or sell the game off to someone else.
triumph
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Trouble is, the moment the game closes, the number of players who will return to it is going to theoretically decline. The more time that passes, the more CoH players will move onto something else and risk not being wrangled back. The value of the IP in the eyes of other businesses will only get staler the longer it sits in the back of the pantry.
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Originally Posted by LittleDavid
As I understand it, what TonyV's hoping for is to get the game out from under NCSoft, so that Paragon Studios' employees can reform under a new name and continue developing it.
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This is true, but you do have to admit that the average CoX gamer is not the average WoW (or any other MMORPG) gamer. There is a different overall vibe with this game and support from the community is what made it survive for so long (as well as thrive). If any game can survive, this one can. I agree totally that it must happen as fast as possible, because of the bleed off of more casual players. They may come back, but it's less and less likely with time.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Trouble is, the moment the game closes, the number of players who will return to it is going to theoretically decline. The more time that passes, the more CoH players will move onto something else and risk not being wrangled back. The value of the IP in the eyes of other businesses will only get staler the longer it sits in the back of the pantry.
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It has been mentioned in another thread that in South Korea, protest is how things get done. They're not China.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Yeah, I can't imagine a good outcome for Paragon Studios. Maybe someone can salvage the game's code, but I'm not holding my breath. All my experience with corporate politics tells me there's rarely any second-guessing when a decision has been made. You can't be seen to be a waffler because you're perceived as weak. That attitude is probably a thousand times more powerful in Korean culture.
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Culex's resistance guide
Personally, I am subbed on 2 accounts for 6 months still after the Nov 30th deadline. Until I get my money back I will not give NcSoft another damn dime of my money. For anything. They are well within their right to close the game, however until I get my money refunded for time after Nov 30th, in my mind this is theft, nothing more, nothing less. I don't want credit for some other property, I want a refund. For this to go on for two weeks without a peep with regards to this issue shows a complete disdain for their customers.
If this game has any future past the drop dead date, it will certainly be with another company with a completely different billing system. This "No News" line we're getting from some otherwise well-meaning folks is utterly irrelevant. NcSoft isn't going to be handling the billing.
"Can play" is not a binary. It's a float.
There are some pretty low values of "can play" out there.
--Fulmens
The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off
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I take issue with being labelled as a "heckler". Here is precisely the kind of attitude that irks me about this so called "community". Sure everyone stands shoulder to shoulder until someone even thinks about coming up with an idea or point of view that dares to be contrary to the established norm. I spent a lot of time, and a lot of money on this game. I introduced my girlfriend to it and at one time was paying for THREE separate VIP accounts. It was listed as one of the reasons for the break up of my first marriage because I spent so much time playing it. I've shed tears over its closure and have been utterly awestruck by the attempts people have made to keep it afloat, and also the passion which people have poured in to it.|
Originally Posted by LittleDavid
Dear SteelRat,
What I'm about to say is not specifically directed at you but rather in consideration of the kind of hecklers we've had in the major gaming sites ... but I really dislike your sort of cavalier attitude toward MMOs that get killed off. It's one thing to not expect our efforts to have any impact, but the people who say things like "get over it, the game's dead, they've made their decision, go play the latest hot new MMO" get on my nerves pretty bad. |
So let's get things quite clear: I don't want this game to close any more than anyone else.
The facts of the matter, despite the polarised attitude of people like you is that not very many people in the grand scheme of things still played it and still put money in to it. Less than 1% of the total revenue of NCSoft, and of that we regularly hear that less than 5% of THOSE people even visit and / or post on these forums. It doesn't matter how big, important or earth shattering you are, in terms of the real world, you're a small voice.
I'm don't have a cavalier attitude to the games demise, I have a realistic one. It's dead and frankly unlikely to be saved. That's not a hard and fast fact, sure, but it's very real possibility. The longer you try and ignore that, the worse its going to be for you when it happens. That's why people say "get over it". All the campaigns and shouting, jumping and name calling isn't going to change the bottom line. Ultimately, "Getting over it" is going to be your only option come November 30th.
Quote:
| Most MMOs are forever lost when the plug's pulled and the databases are wiped, unlike practically all other video games. With other games, when the company goes out of business, or their publisher gives them the axe, copies of their games aren't rendered useless (excepting cases with truly draconc DRM, but that's another story). People continue to cherish and play games that are 20, 30, heck, 40 years old and whose developing studios are long gone. The games can get republished on virtual consoles, or re-released some other way. They don't have an expiration date, they don't vanish leaving only memories and scarce movies, screenshots, or abandoned fansites. |
Quote:
| Markovia had a point when he said that the closure of games like City of Heroes is like erasing a part of our cultural record. It's a lot like what Jason Scott said of the abrupt no-warning closure of AOL Hometown and what he also said when he founded the Archie Team to prevent more wanton destruction of culture, history, and content when a site decides to shut down its services. Shrugging one's shoulders and saying "nothing lasts forever" comes off to me as welcoming the transient nature companies like NCSoft impose on this genre. But there's plenty of MMOs of CoH's age or older which show it doesn't have to be this way. |
This so called shoulder shrugging as you call it is just me simply accepting what is (and I'm sure there will be some barrel related jibes that come from that). From a different point of view there are some philosophies that say "all things are transient and putting your faith in those things lasting forever will always lead away from true happiness". Things. Don't. Last. Forever. Sooner or later the things you love will be taken away from you. Most of those things are generally a damn sight more important than a computer game.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
Quote:
The silence is because of talks with Paragon Studios, not with an outside company. It's not likely that those talks will last until November 30th. They'll be decided one way or the other by then. Also keep in mind that rumor indicates, and I'm inclined to believe it, that NCSoft is the reason why a CoH 2.0 upgrade never happened. If Paragon gets the game, I imagine they would go forward with that plan - which supposedly was going to allow CoH characters to be transferred over to the upgraded version. That would draw in a lot of new and old players, as would the success story of an MMO being saved by its community.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Trouble is, the moment the game closes, the number of players who will return to it is going to theoretically decline. The more time that passes, the more CoH players will move onto something else and risk not being wrangled back. The value of the IP in the eyes of other businesses will only get staler the longer it sits in the back of the pantry.
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I fail to see how others think the best thing that can happen is a single server being left open but no further development occurring or having another company buy the game. What would keep another company from shutting us down next year? For that matter, how would another company handle the game? Would development be the same? Would we even want to play it, or would the new company just remind us every day how much we miss Paragon Studios?
And for the people that bother posting here to tell us there's no chance any of this is going to happen and move on and CoH had a good run and blah, blah, blah: Why are you posting here? Isn't it a waste of your time?
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Seriously folks, you are starting to sound like little kids having a tantrum. Apparently that 2-week tickover is all people have in them.
NCsoft doesn't read these forums.
Direct your outrage in productive directions.
See Titan's "Call to Action" posts for those directions.
If you're going to post "I'M PISSED AND WON'T WAIT ANY LONGER!" posts, at least post them in one of the other countless threads that popped up in the last couple days to keep all the whining in one place.
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Check the date. It's those numbers at the bottom right of your screen.|
Originally Posted by SteelRat
Ultimately, "Getting over it" is going to be your only option come November 30th.
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You can talk all you want about how unimportant games are and how unlikely we are to save this one. The fact is we are making noise. What don't people understand about this? The point isn't necessarily to win. If we win that's great. The point is to fight. To not go quietly. To demonstrate to NCSoft and the rest of the industry that this is bull and we refuse to be treated this way.
When November 30th comes along, you can say "I told you so" if you want. Nobody will care.
The reason we don't listen to your viewpoints and whatever else you said (see how much I'm not listening) is because you are directly insulting what we are doing and insulting our personal feelings about the situation. To a great many people this game is more than just a game. There are people that play CoH that can't leave their home due to disability. People that have no family in RL and found one as a part of this community. People that met on CoH and got married. Blow smoke all you want about paying for 3 VIP accounts and introducing your girlfriend to the game and whatever else. If you can truly say that this is just a game then you don't understand.
In the end, I recognize that the odds are against us. I always did. But doing something is better than doing nothing at all. What are you accomplishing by sitting there and telling us all how it isn't going to work? Does bringing others down make you feel better?
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
SteelRat and Feycat. I personally am also going to miss this game but I'm not torn apart by it. And I also know that the anger and sadness threads are going to accomplish exactly nothing.
But I'm not going to post in them just to try and make people face what I consider to be "reality" because I have a certain thing called empathy. You two (and a few others) are like people who say "Geez kid, crying ain't going to bring your dead dog back. Go down to the pound and get your self a new one."
Telling people they are foolish and wasting their time with their anger and grief doesn't make you cool headed. It just makes you a pancake.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
*waits for fanbois to start back with comments like " if you dont like it quit the game!"...just a matter of time really.
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Originally Posted by Ground_Fault
Do you guys really think they are going to fire and disband an arm of their organization and then change their minds and rehire everyone? I cant remember anyone ever doing that. Think about the office morale, employee loyalty would be in the toilet.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Yeah, I can't imagine a good outcome for Paragon Studios. Maybe someone can salvage the game's code, but I'm not holding my breath. All my experience with corporate politics tells me there's rarely any second-guessing when a decision has been made. You can't be seen to be a waffler because you're perceived as weak. That attitude is probably a thousand times more powerful in Korean culture.
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Or for "Misrepresenting" the future growth, expected sales, assumptions about current titles/properties/sales/trends in business models of = whatever...
Doesn't really matter & it happens all the time - normally they send the person to another department, or fire them if it becomes a snafu of epic proportions... See where I'm going here?
Sometimes it's someone major close to the top & they presumably go into a board meeting and say the equivalent of "You, know, I was just following all of the recent advice we've (and every other game company or many software companies.They show the "Online" market projected to rise, and show percentages of expected growth for the other markets = "PC", "Console", "Mobile", "Arcade", "Browser Games", and in some cases "Other"...
There's charts and articles saying oh there's gonna be huge growth in Mobile Platforms, and everyone wants the next Farmville, Angry Birds or, uhm - actually I don't really know!
I don't have a smartphone/iPhone or an iPad. And I can live with out them for now = my cell phone works, so does my PC and not only is the "new is gonna wear off the "i-stuff" sooner or later.
Plus, right now - none of them run games I'd want to play = Not Yet. And, if/when they do, I know they'll cost way more than I'm willing and/or able to spend.
They'll also have to decide if that want to keep the "solid/legacy" Titles, or ditch those to go with Tired-overdone Tropes, AND hope/pray to have the next gold-rush "Casual", "Social", or "Browser" game. That costs next to nothing to make & hooks people like crack... Like arcades in the 80's with people dumping quarters/tokens in one after the other, only NOW they can just charge it to your smartphone = well over in Japan & Korea where they have a "captive market - people who literally lack the space for Desktop PC's, or the money to keep up with high-end "Enthusiast" (or mid-grade) PC's to play the latest (or recent) games on.
And, I expect they're gonna have trouble with the various tablet/mobile/phone OS'es as the become more prominent. Heck, how long is it taking to get Flash working on them? Yeah - that won't be the last issue like that, & if they're emptying wallets by the minute or second, (I actually saw that in some sales figures = average profit per second!)
And that level/degree of unashamed money grubbing is gonna cost them - when the hackers run out of quarters, and the bad press they already have from internet cafe's & trying to monitor all that and that the users aren't minors playing after whatever hours they made off-limits in their "curfews"...
City of Heroes is the BEST Super Hero MMO in the US, and even if they decided they need to upgrade the engine a bit more or shift the population over to a "CoH 2.0", they're gonna be missing out on a Dedicated Market - we love our superheroes & the movies are gonna keep on coming out.
Meaning while NCsoft could be dumping money into cheap-azz title after title, maybe "virtual thumb-wrestling" will be their next big gold-rush hit?
I'm betting they're gonna regret not re-thinking their decision coming up with a reasonable excuse/reason that protects most everyone's egos/dignity/etc and gets most of Paragon Studios up and running again! Maybe it won't be NCsoft...
But I think they know by now their brand is gonna suffer if they don't do something - from those of us who'll never trust them again & that they'll have a bunch of nearly identical MMO & Browser Games, and then hope they create the next big Facebook/Mobile/Tablet game - JUST Like every other programer and their freaking dog is "counting on" aka = hoping to do.
They might do well in Korea/Japan but there's a lot of U.S. "Dollar, Dollar Bills Y'all" that they're never gonna see again!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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Or they could be, you know, looking for jobs to support themselves and their families.
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Originally Posted by Mindscythe
As has been posted by someone in the know over on the Titan forums: No news is good news.
In all likelihood, Paragon Studios and NCsoft are still in the aforementioned "delicate negotiations" and are under a strict NDA. The fact that we haven't heard anything from Posi, or War Witch, or Z, is actually a good sign. It means they're otherwise occupied, and since we know that there are negotiations ongoing, the silence should be read as good news. The silence means "We're not dead yet." |
Be well, people of CoH.
Dear NC Soft, I've been patient. I was disappointed that you cancelled a (profitable) game that I (and many, many others) enjoy playing but what really disappointed me was how very poorly you handled the situation. The announcement contained no information for VIP players, many of whom had invested in your game for a long term. I, for example, had paid a year subscription to the game that was going to run through to June of 2013. There was no indication that refunds would be forthcoming for services that were not going to be provided. But, out of the goodness of our hearts, we waited patiently. We were told something was being worked on so we waited. But, really, why was something being worked on _AFTER_ the announcement was made? That sort of detailed should have been worked on _BEFORE_ the announcement. But, it wasn't. So we waited.
And waited.
And waited.
It is now over two weeks after the announcement and I am becoming less and less inclined to wait. I will be patient for a few more days but, if an announcement is not made very soon (as in "within the first half of this coming week"), I will be contacting my credit card company and disputing the credit card charge for your failure to deliver what was paid for. I will demand a charge back and you can deal with my credit card company.
And I suspect many other gamers will start doing the same thing.
Oh, and lest it not be clear, do not offer me game time in one of your other games or some such thing. It's remarkably simple - I want a refund. Period. No discussion. I don't know what is taking so long to figure out - you accepted money for a service you're choosing to not provide. Give me my money back, I'll be disappointed the game got cancelled, and it'll be done. Fail to do that and you can deal with my credit card company.
My patience is done. Get a move on.
Syphon Strike
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Back after two years of WoW!