Rethinking the MMO: How I would do CoH2
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-09-13 15:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Yes and no. The more accurate answer is: it could be. Every game client would contain the same basic content. The "official" community servers would contain that basic content as well. And then there would be DLC content that some players would have and some would not on their local clients, and that would make everyone a little bit different. The official community servers would be more or less up to date with official content with some means of arbitration when people don't have the content locally, and would have content specifically designed for very large instances besides.|
Originally Posted by KnightOwl
I really like the idea a lot (in theory).
What about the content, though? Would the content be the same on the community servers as it is on my standalone? |
To make sure no one is left *too* far behind, my thought is that most of the "official" DLC content is sold for a period of time, then goes on sale after a certain point, and then becomes free after another point. What those points are, are details I haven't fully thought about.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
On community shards, including particularly the officially supported ones, auction houses like the CoH one could exist, and they would mostly traffic in items above a certain level of power - basically the same threshold mentioned previously as the point beyond which untrusted import is disallowed. If you can't import it (outside of trust) you can't hack or solo farm it and then flood the economy with it.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini
How would you handle the auction house in this system? It sounds like there would not be a viable way to have one, which would make IOing out a character require either enjoying farming merits or paying real money for them (which is not a viable option for someone like me with over 100 characters).
|
For all intents and purposes, community shards would be MMOs as we know them, but under the hood the technology will make it possible to leave them and "go home" to a stand alone game. Someone who always plays on a community shard would never know the difference between that game and a classic MMO like we have now.
At home, playing the stand alone game, you wouldn't need auction houses as much because the stand alone game would be balanced like most stand alone games: with far less reward scarcity and with the intent for the solo player to be able to get most or all of what the game offers in theory. At least, enough to conquer the solo game.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Since I nowhere mention gameplay as such, what specific part of it sounds like anything, horrid or otherwise? The idea focuses on player options for stand alone and shared experiences, but anyone who played such a game exclusively on a shared community shard would see literally no difference between that and City of Heroes now. The technology would allow other playing scenario options, but wouldn't necessarily fundamentally change the actual gameplay of the core game.
|
Originally Posted by Wolvorine
Just to add another voice to the topic... this sound horrid, and I wouldn't play it.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
It reminds me of phantasy star online, back in the day. I loved that And i'd love this. as chase can verify I have been tossing around ideas for single player games with larger join-able campaigns as an option aspect for a long time(and at that time, i was ripping off the original idea for fable 2 multiplayer...before it didnt quite turn out as hoped). it is the direction that I wished mmos would have taken and would love to see them take it.
With this set up, it'd be nice if you could create NPC allies to aid you when you were playing by yourself. Just like creating your own character, with a costume, powersets, etc. They'd also level whenever you did and you could select which powers they took. Not everyone plays an IOed out Brute that can solo EBs and AVs and if you wanted to play 1-50 solo just with NPC allies, you could do so.
Shadowblaze - Lvl 50 Dark/Thermal Cor, Alexander Kalsoa - Lvl 50 BS/Regen Scrapper, and a whole bunch of other Alts. Global is @Shadowblaze.
Quote:
That's what I was put in the mind of.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
It reminds me of phantasy star online, back in the day.
|
It's the sort of game model that I'd prefer. I like being able to directly tinker with stats and equipment, and I like some of the community mods that inevitably arise for offline games, and I like the option to exclusively just hook up with a few friends. The "massively" part of MMORPGs has never appealed to me.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Arcanaville,
I can say that something like this is actually happening, at least in genesis terms on another game. I had the opportunity to listen to a mmorpg podcast concerning Age of Conan, and one of the technologies they are working on right now is the ability to splinter off player experiences into seperate shards that are only playable by a player and their friends list, for example.
I can't recommend enough for you to go and have a listen to that interview, because as soon as I started reading your proposal, the interview immediately popped into my head as being very similar. So this is well beyond a pipe dream. In fact, I have a tremendous respect for FunCom and their desire to make non-mainstream games (I cite Anarchy Online, Age of Conan and Secret World particularly) as commendable, because they're not always safe and 'business sensible' decisions. In fact, I would be more than personally pleased if they made a bid for City of Heroes if the IP became available because of that more mature approach. They even have a similar feel to Paragon Studios in their outlooks and desire to make experiences for players.
Just a thought.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
This sounds fantastic. Where's the Kickstarter for it again? 
"Striving for the impossible" doesn't mean "toiling in vain". It means growth. It means improvement in the direction of your ideals. Not futility.
Erfworld: the Battle for Gobwin Knob
Arcanaville's ideas are pretty similar to what I've been thinking about lately. Seems like this problem definition is more or less this:
* Players need continuity between characters, environments, and relationships.
* Whoever builds the client and content tools needs compensation.
* Content providers need compensation for their creative assets.
* Service providers need some type of compensation for their computing time.
Arcanaville comes close to solving most of those, but I'd like to propose a few additions.
1) Players own their core characters. There is literally a file (no central clearinghouse, but maybe cloud storage) that contains the character's definition. In CoH terms this would be a character with all powers and slots picked out, with enhancements marked as slotted, but not actually slotted. More on that later. Characters would also have a baseline costume. More on that, too.
This is different from Arcanaville's idea in that the character's gear would not travel with the character, but only certificates of the gear. Everything the beyond the basic character would, in effect, be licensed.
2) The studio building the client, server, and content creation tools needs revenue. The client can be sold to players for a most fee. The content tools could be licensed to developers for very low (or zero) cost in return for a fat cut of content modules that could be distributed via an app store. Those modules could also be freely distributed, but the tool creators could offer extra incentives to use the app store, such as:
a) Digitally signed gear. This is solves the hacking/duping issue in a couple of ways. First, when a character joins a new server, all the gear can be authenticated with the app store. Second, only approved modules could award digitally signed gear. Third, service providers (mods, GMs) could not award digitally signed gear--it would have to be 'earned' in game. Fourth, digitally-signed gear could be traded/auctioned between players, preserving the 'loot' system. Fifth, players could have unbalanced, über builds on their home server (if they wished), using non-signed equipment, but then transfer their characters to other environments, with the characters mostly intact. Oh, and awesome costume pieces? Also digitally signed.
Thus, content creators and tool creators would be compensated for their work.
This is like Arcanaville's trust system, except that it is backed by some type of certificate issuer.
3) The service providers could also have access to the app store to sell modestly priced subscriptions to their server. Again, the client developer would get a share of the subscription.
I think it might work... the tricky part is having a critical mass to keep the revenues steady.
Lady Deacon, 50 ill/ff
Cinder Imp, 50 fa/wm
and many more!
Quote:
I did not say "MMOs will die" I said MMOs "as we know them" will fade out. MMOs will continue, but I expect in the next two decades to see a return in the private server concept. |
Originally Posted by Combat
For now, I think MMOs will see a slow death. However, I definitely think they'll be with us in the future, and will be very popular again once we get the right technology.
|
Quote:
| Right now, we are stuck in an infancy stage, connected to our keyboards and mouse and playing in a clearly pixelated environment. Remove those limitations, and MMOs will have a bright future. |
Quote:
| Simply put, I don't think we really have the tools to create a fully immersive virtual world, and that hurts MMOs. |
Pipe dreams that cant exists even in single player games on high end computers. (example unlimited level of detail, smart AI that can create it's own stories with perfect human-like voice acting or complete control of the character to the movements of a pinky)
Mechanics that already exist, have been tested, and rejected by the public. Sandboxed control to do anything you want, player created cities, craft anything you can think off, players mold the world. This didnt sustain UO for against static content MMOs, failed for SWG and didnt seem to be any economical landmark success for Second Life Online.
Quote:
Pretty much what Bubba said. I feel the future of MMOs is in personal control of social interaction and team play. If I want to play with others, I log in and play. If I want to play by myself... I'm still paying the same for the game, so I'll go do that. To me, this is the ideal structure where those who want to be sociable can be, whereas those who want to keep to themselves can, and all help the parent company.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Based on what I just read, the answer is:
For the local single player instance: Yes. For community servers: Yes, if the community server host decides to go that way or No, if they don't. I like it. Folks like us would join the communities that don't care if you team or not while others would join the communities with lots of forced teaming. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Another possibility is to give server owners a "DLC subscription" program. If they subscribe, they automatically get all new DLC, past and present.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To make sure no one is left *too* far behind, my thought is that most of the "official" DLC content is sold for a period of time, then goes on sale after a certain point, and then becomes free after another point. What those points are, are details I haven't fully thought about.
|
Single player mode may also have a similar program. Basically, a low monthly fee not for server access, but as a content subscription.
Quote:
That's what Diablo 3 should have been.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Pretty much what Bubba said. I feel the future of MMOs is in personal control of social interaction and team play. If I want to play with others, I log in and play. If I want to play by myself... I'm still paying the same for the game, so I'll go do that. To me, this is the ideal structure where those who want to be sociable can be, whereas those who want to keep to themselves can, and all help the parent company.
|
The offline + online aspect definitely reminded me a bit of Diablo 1.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
And it might have worked, had the game itself not been trash. And I paid 50 or 60 Euro for that thing. I forget how much, but it was too much.
|
Originally Posted by Starsman
That's what Diablo 3 should have been.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I think someone making a new super hero MMO could borrow a lot from Guild Wars 2.
Like the dynamic events system; having random crimes happening in the world. The problem I've always had with CoH is there's really no reason for the city zones. They just exist as space between mission doors, and to me that doesn't compute when Spider-Man or Bats spend like 90% of time swinging around the open city on patrol. So I'd love to see the same thing brought into the super hero context. To further the idea, completing these events could lead to revealing "clues", if you have investigative skills, that in turn lead you to an instanced mission and part of a greater story arc. Or if you're not the detective type, it's off to the next random disaster.
I think half of their power system is a good idea. If you're a "fire guy" you have access to all the fire powers, but you can only equip so many. If you want to control you can grab the ring of fire type powers and if you want damage you can go for the fire ball type powers. Obviously, I don't think super heroes would be swapping out "weapons" on the fly. You shouldn't have a super strength guy switching to a martial artist or swordsman whenever he feels like it. Although maybe if they grouped them together in sets; super strength+titan weapons and martial arts+swordsmanship for example.
They've got a rudimentary system for environmental interaction with their "weapon bundles". You can find bits of rubble to pick up and toss. Now if only they were cars. You have Elementalist I believe that can create ice weapons; that could be expanded upon greatly by having everyone's attacks create different weaponizable items as a side effect.
Before the beginning of this month I would have said I'd like to see what the GW2 team could do with a super hero MMO. Now not so much. Additionally, for all the "progress" they've made in furthering the MMO they're still embracing some of the worst aspects of the worst and not learning from CoH. What a new super hero MMO should not borrow:
-Hair-pulling difficulty for TFs (and no difficulty setting in general).
-"We got rid of the trinity!" Yes, you just made everyone a glass cannon or fragile speedster and made sure allocating points to anything other than crit damage is meaningless.
-You like crafting? To level it up, produce a mountain of worthless common junk nobody will ever buy! And then spend more to break it down again! Just for a Legendary weapon skin that wont be all that unique in a month.
-Pay to win like you wouldn't believe.
.
Quote:
I disagree. "The overworld" is easily my least favourite part of Guild Wars, and I simply hate the spontaneous events. This probably has to do with my ambivalence towards super heroes as a thing, but I don't imagine any of mine "going on patrol" because none of my heroes are "reactive" in any capacity of the word. I've gone over this at length in other threads, but I just don't make heroes who wait for crime to happen and then go stop it, because I don't make crime fighters in general, but maybe a few. Each of the characters I make have their own plots that they follow and seek out action in person, since they are driven by a larger plot.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Like the dynamic events system; having random crimes happening in the world. The problem I've always had with CoH is there's really no reason for the city zones. They just exist as space between mission doors, and to me that doesn't compute when Spider-Man or Bats spend like 90% of time swinging around the open city on patrol. So I'd love to see the same thing brought into the super hero context. To further the idea, completing these events could lead to revealing "clues", if you have investigative skills, that in turn lead you to an instanced mission and part of a greater story arc. Or if you're not the detective type, it's off to the next random disaster.
|
Besides, I hate overworld missions as a general concept. Give me an instance and I will always, ALWAYS, pick that over an overworld task. I don't care what that overworld task is, if it's not in an instance all to myself, I don't want it. Zones still have a point - they represent the journey to the mission, and unlike many other players, I do enjoy fighting my way from the contact to the mission door. Sure, it's pointless no-story filler, but it is a "travel mission" of sorts all its own. I'd do it considerably more often if enemies scaled a bit better... And I didn't have to trek through a forest or a desert.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
This is sort of in-line with something I've been considering lately... The whole thought process started when I first joined a team and saw the old "You are now viewing the world as shaped by that player's experiences..."
Okay, taking Arcanavillain... Arcanavaudevillian... Arcanavavavoom... erg... Taking Arc's idea of starting out on your own solo-world and moving to a community one... what if the solo world were COMPLETELY shaped by your character's victories and defeats?
For example... You have a mission to save the Atlas Statue from sabotage... some Hellions have decided to blow it up and roast marshmallows over its remains... If you successfully complete the mission then everything remains pretty much the same... If you FAIL then the statue is blown up not only in that instance of a mission but in your "running around Atlas Park" world as well... Not that it would stay that way forever... workmen will always appear and work on what your actions destroyed... but in the interim the statue is obliterated...
I have ALWAYS been a proponent of failed missions meaning as much if not more than successful ones... On your closed system this would be even more feasible and have a much greater impact...
Now let's look at Arc's idea a little more closely... How about, instead of you joining the community so you could team with others... the system came to you? In other words... whoever has the star on the team acts as the Server for the other team members... So if you joined the above hero's world... BANG... you suddenly see Atlas with no head and a mess of scaffolding around him...
This is not to mean that your computer would actually HOST the game... since computer power variances could pose a problem... but the actual game servers take a snap shot image of the team leader's world progress and replicates it as an instanced world all the team to play in... Before they actually join there might even be a question like "Do you wish your world to be influenced by your actions on this team or are you just visiting (team leader's) world?"
Okay... next possibility... instead of JOINING a community world... how about you have constant contact with it but only in certain areas? For example... take CoH as it is now... Atlas Park, Kings Row, etc would be solo worlds that you have to invite others in to see what you've done with it... however there would be Nexus zones where EVERYONE is allowed in... Such as Rikti War Zone, Shadow Shard, Pocket D and so on... You can still play the game off-line but these special Co-Op Zones would be off limits until you log on...
Now... taking this model... I'll go one step further to draw you in, tie you up and have my way with yo... er... to sweeten the pot...
In comic books all the Big Name heroes have their own City to protect... this actually is more prevalent in DC than Marvel... Batman has Gotham... Supes has Metropolis... etc... What if the solo zones were sections of YOUR hero's city? What if MegaMonolithicMan was the sterling hero and sole protector of Mudflap, Montana? He could invite in other heroes to occasionally help him (cross-over issues), but for the most part he saves the town on his own.
This would make the Co-Op zones huge cities like New York, Los Angeles, London, etc that always seem to be magnets for megalomaniacs so require a lot of heroes to protect.
Goodbye City of Heroes.... welcome to WORLD of Heroes...
Oh... and how about a map editor built into the game? So you can make your own town to protect?
Just a thought...
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
Quote:
Well, that was pretty much everything I wanted to say, so consider it a vote in favor.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I think someone making a new super hero MMO could borrow a lot from Guild Wars 2.
Like the dynamic events system; having random crimes happening in the world. The problem I've always had with CoH is there's really no reason for the city zones. They just exist as space between mission doors, and to me that doesn't compute when Spider-Man or Bats spend like 90% of time swinging around the open city on patrol. So I'd love to see the same thing brought into the super hero context. To further the idea, completing these events could lead to revealing "clues", if you have investigative skills, that in turn lead you to an instanced mission and part of a greater story arc. Or if you're not the detective type, it's off to the next random disaster. I think half of their power system is a good idea. If you're a "fire guy" you have access to all the fire powers, but you can only equip so many. If you want to control you can grab the ring of fire type powers and if you want damage you can go for the fire ball type powers. Obviously, I don't think super heroes would be swapping out "weapons" on the fly. You shouldn't have a super strength guy switching to a martial artist or swordsman whenever he feels like it. Although maybe if they grouped them together in sets; super strength+titan weapons and martial arts+swordsmanship for example. They've got a rudimentary system for environmental interaction with their "weapon bundles". You can find bits of rubble to pick up and toss. Now if only they were cars. You have Elementalist I believe that can create ice weapons; that could be expanded upon greatly by having everyone's attacks create different weaponizable items as a side effect. |
Quote:
| -Hair-pulling difficulty for TFs (and no difficulty setting in general). |
Quote:
| -"We got rid of the trinity!" Yes, you just made everyone a glass cannon or fragile speedster and made sure allocating points to anything other than crit damage is meaningless. |
Quote:
| -You like crafting? To level it up, produce a mountain of worthless common junk nobody will ever buy! And then spend more to break it down again! Just for a Legendary weapon skin that wont be all that unique in a month. |
Quote:
| -Pay to win like you wouldn't believe. |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Quoting myself? QUOTECEPTION.
Quote:
Actually, let me pull this tangent back into discussion on what I'd like to see in CoH 2: Multiple methods of active defense. Combat became a lot more intriguing and fun once I started putting together all the ways my thief could bounce and stealth his way out of trouble. I'm still feeling my way through my warrior's crowd control but the learning is half the fun anyways. It feels a lot more interactive and entertaining to have more options beyond set rotation and keep out of red stuff, and I'd love - love - to see that done in a superhero MMO.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Tangent #1: My condition damage thief just had a good chuckle. Let's give the game a couple months before we start debating balance.
|
(Yeah, I know CO has blocking, but everyone blocks the same with the same twitch timing. And why the heck does my tanker build have to pancakin' block!?)
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
I love the idea of selecting a "home" city and having it react to your history (as Steelclaw describes in his post), and think it would fit the model extremely well - the basic game would include a city and additional cities would be available for DLC or via mod tools that allowed you to control the layout from predefined pieces (so the clients would have local storage of the textures and models). You could travel to cities you owned, they'd be trusted or not the same way builds would be, and you could get your cities sold the same way the AE missions would be via the store.
To be honest I've always been surprised that the MMO model didn't allow offline play when it first started, since network play games had been around for longer that provided the option for offline, cooperative, or competitive play. I guess it was just because they were modeled after MUDs originally instead of those other games.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
That's a technical detail I didn't delve into, but I was thinking roughly along those lines in terms of how to track trust - by signing key chains. The problem is not the problem of central certification, but central issuance of gear tokens that would be provably unique, otherwise signature or no signature gear could be duplicated. That makes this a somewhat more tricky problem to solve technically.
|
Originally Posted by corinna
a) Digitally signed gear. This is solves the hacking/duping issue in a couple of ways. First, when a character joins a new server, all the gear can be authenticated with the app store. Second, only approved modules could award digitally signed gear. Third, service providers (mods, GMs) could not award digitally signed gear--it would have to be 'earned' in game. Fourth, digitally-signed gear could be traded/auctioned between players, preserving the 'loot' system. Fifth, players could have unbalanced, über builds on their home server (if they wished), using non-signed equipment, but then transfer their characters to other environments, with the characters mostly intact. Oh, and awesome costume pieces? Also digitally signed.
Thus, content creators and tool creators would be compensated for their work. This is like Arcanaville's trust system, except that it is backed by some type of certificate issuer. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I forgot, the other thing a new superhero MMO could learn from GW2: Level-less levels/level scaling.
You never "outlevel" an area or the enemies in it and you never lose access to powers. Your dark night avenger could stay in a gritty Kings Row-type zone and fight street level thugs forever if you wanted.
.
I've been thinking about what I'd want CoH 2 to be like.
I like some of what Arcanaville said and some of what Steelclaw said.
I like the idea of having a personal city/personal areas to run around in for solo adventures, things that are designed/based around personal choices and impacts. Take the phasing technology and bring it to the next level. This would also let you, say, design your own archvillain or a series of your own villains that would feature into various plots over the course of 1-50 in your personal area. It'd let you have your own statue/hologram like the never-to-be-released mission in i24, but on a more permanent basis.
And I really like the idea of a shared larger city that brings in teaming/the MMO aspect. Where trials and taskforces and teaming all takes place, but it would still have options for soloing as well. And this is where all the GM's would be.
It's a fun idea to consider. I could post something much more detailed but I probably wouldn't add much.
With a standalone game there's no reason to make things this hard. You would get rewards at a rate that doesn't cheapen the game-playing experience, with no artificial time-wasters for milking more sub time from the players. You could make it relatively easy to get rare stuff (a few hours, not a few weeks) in such a game, so an auction house is unnecessary.