Anime and CoX

I've been going about the fora for a while, and I've noticed that many posters hold no love for the idea of adding anime-inspired, well, anything to the game. I never understood why this was. I mean, there's no rule that says superheroes need to fit Western standards...Son Goku and Ichigo Kurosaki are just as much superheroes as Batman or Spidey.

So I have finally come to this particular forum to pose the following question:

Why all the Manga hate?

(And for Pete's sake, please try not to flame.)

It doesn't translate well into this game engine, for one. Everything anime is super over-the-top and outside of the game, anime is already very in-your-face and to me, that can get overwhelming.

Second, there's a bit of a stigma that comes with anime; a lot of it stems from the folks who go absolutely overboard with their fandom and end up defending their most favored series like rabid cats.

It depends on exactly how it's integrated into the work. Obviously the art style would have to be adapted for a 3D computer game (just as comics had to be), but there's no reason the general ideas and such couldn't be brought over.

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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim Everything anime is super over-the-top and outside of the game, anime is already very in-your-face and to me, that can get overwhelming.

There's a massive variety of anime out there. Some are extremely over the top, while others are much more understated and go much more so towards realism. And again (I wrote these two parts in reverse <,<) this game is already comic book themed... which aren't exactly known for not going over the top.

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Second, there's a bit of a stigma that comes with anime; a lot of it stems from the folks who go absolutely overboard with their fandom and end up defending their most favored series like rabid cats.

You do realize you're saying this in a comic book themed MMO forum, right?

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.

probably because examples you gave not fit in the usual Super Hero definition. True they possess similiar or more powers but in eithers case they are not known by the world. Son Goku only known as martial arts expert but never called a hero until end of GT series (which is not a canon product itself) Ichigo only known to a handful of people as what he is doing and they don't really call him hero either.

From what I see at manga or anime there isn't much people that you can really call Super Hero because ;

a) They are not known to world or even at local town there isn't anyone admire their works other than their friends and close relatives(even x-men despite being mutants have consderable amount of admirers in marvel world)

b) They don't give vibe of heroes. Both Son Goku and Ichigo only fights against treats that are close to them (admitedly some have better sensory) but Batman or Spidey goesa out on patrols and clean most of crime they find without considering its level.

c) Most of anime main heroes either has a weak personality or weak physical/mental image. Most Super Heroes on the other hand are aware of their surrounding and actions on thought level rather than instinct level and even those have weak physicals have a way to overcome that (like telekinesis or mind control etc.) Weak points of Heroes are more humane than anime characters ( Spiderman is always unlucky, Ironman is alcoholic, Hulk has anger issues!!)

Now I don't say there are not manga or anime that fits to Super Hero definition but they are too few and almost all of them unpopular discontinued products.

Second reason I see is drawing technique. Drawings on manga were inspired by Disney's Mickey Mouse and that genre it gives too much of a cartoonish feel than what people may like to see this is especially true when it comes to head drawings.

I'm not sure where the idea of Manga-hate comes from. Personally I find even the most ridiculous shows entertaining in their own way, so much so that my avatar and signature are both from an anime (Excel Saga. It's kind of crazy).

I do see a point about making various anime elements difficult to transition into the game, however. With how over-the-top things can get in anime and with how loosely defined the overall style of anime really is, it is hard to pick out any one costume piece and go "See! This has nothing to do with anime!". So, we're usually left with throwing in either very specific costumes that can lead to someone going "Yeah, that is totally the Daitenzin squad", to very generalized ideas that may not be considered anime at all.

What I would like are some more over-the-top hairstyles.

You gotta look at the game's setting. No, I'm not talking about "silly comic book world where anything goes" like some people love to say.

CoH's art, storylines, characters, etc. are themed around what if superpowers and myths existed in the real world. So it's more than a little ridiculous to see us getting costume parts that appear cartoonish and break that visual theme (like, for example, faces with those giant cartoon eyes). There's nothing wrong with getting, say, martial arts gear, Samurai armor, Japanese wrestling masks, or even just school girl outfits. But then these things aren't really restricted to anime, either. They're just requests for specific styles of outfits.

So anytime someone makes a "moar anime parts" request it's in and of itself a bad request right off the bat. They're either asking for something that would clash with CoH's visual theme very badly, or they're being too broad and need to specify what exactly it is they want to see added to the game.

I always got the impression that forumites *love* anime and manga and want to see them influence the game more, not less (witness how many examples are based on anime I've never heard of), so I'm not sure where the idea of anime-hate comes from. (By the way, note for pedants: I'm going to use the word "anime" in this post to mean "anime and manga and other Asian or Asian-influenced material like them. Yes, I know this is a generalization, but I'm trying to save typing time.)

Personally, I'm not in favor of adding "anime" as such to the game. I have several reasons for this, some that are just based on my personal taste and some that are more systemic.

First, a "personal taste" thing. I was drawn to this game because I like Western-type superhero stories. I like the notion of colorful paragons of virtue clashing with fiendish enemies in a setting and context that's usually lifted more or less directly from modern, American culture. (I think of it as a fantasy novel where the author doesn't have to spend a long time describing the imaginary culture because it's very similar to the one I know.) I don't especially enjoy stories about anime-type heroes.

Second, the first of my systemic objections. We already have a fair number of anime-inspired elements in the game. There's an entire power set devoted to ludicrously oversized weapons, several devoted to fantastical unarmed combat styles, a selection of catgirl and wolfboy parts, all sorts of armored battlesuit costume elements, schoolgirl uniforms, and more. All of those things suggest "anime" to a lot of people, including me.

Third, another systemic issue that might seem to cut against what I just said. Asking for "more anime" in the game is like asking for "more comic books" or "more movies." While I'm not much of a fan, I've always considered anime more a medium than a genre. Just as you can write a comic book about superheroes, or about funny animals, or about an ordinary man whining about his life, you can have an anime about a giant robot, or about a rabbit-like demon-man, or about schoolgirls ... or whatever. The style is not the style's contents. I suspect that when people ask for "more anime," they really mean "more things like in [X anime I like]." That's fine, but being more specific is always more likely to get you either more people rallying behind your suggestion (not that that means anything in terms of whether it makes it into the game) or at least clearer negative feedback.

Fourth, an outgrowth of the third point. If, as I've argued, anime is more a style than a type of content, it runs into a problem. The style of CoH is not the style of anime. Anime uses structures like the big-eyes-small-mouth drawing style to demonstrate things like emotional effects. In CoH, to continue the example, faces are fairly realistic in proportion, and what might be demonstrated by exaggerated facial movements is handled entirely through dialogue. If the request for "more anime" is a request to add a second art style into CoH's existing one, I don't think I agree. The Syndicate resembles the antagonists from any number of John Woo-style action films, but the devs didn't add more photorealistic faces or slow-motion combat sequences when they were added to the game. Any new elements added have to be reshaped to fit the existing style of the game. (I should add that this argument applies to story elements, too. I have a vague impression that anime involves a lot of personal angst on the parts of the heroes, which isn't an element that's played up much in CoH heroes. Thus, it'd seem extremely out of place were it to be added here.)

So, there you have it. Lest the anime-lovers out there think I have no sympathy at all for their love of their favorite medium, I should add two things. First, as others have pointed out, we don't know much about Primal Earth outside of Paragon City. I've always assumed, with only minimal evidence to support my belief, that just as the Primal Earth U.S. resembles the world of superhero comic books, the Asia of Primal Earth resembles that of manga and other Asian comics. Perhaps this idea could be explored in a future issue update. The City of Hero heroes seem to suggest this. They're also a good example of what I meant by reshaping anime elements into the existing style of CoH. Mirror Spirit is a magical, girl-like spirit in a somewhat overblown (yet normal-clothing-inspired) outfit who periodically turns evil or something, but she's presented in the same style as other heroes. That is, she's like a Western superhero comics rendering of a manga character.

Second, bringing this back to the personal, back before my gaming rig died, I was working on submissions for the "remake the Vindicators" thread. I've been working on an idea I call "If the Forumites Wrote the Lore" for a while, where I basically do what the developers sometimes do: try to figure out what players' ideas are and implement them, rather than just creating what I'd create if I were doing it in a vacuum. Anyway, in my remake of the Vindicators, Valkyrie was to be a Japanese schoolgirl wielding either a huge techno-katana or a Gundam-like battlesuit; I hadn't decided yet. Again, this is an example of how anime-type ideas can filter into CoH without rewriting the basic art and story style.

*reads title of thread aloud*

/e muttley

I'm an anime fan, too. I'm rather indifferent to whether or not they add more "anime" elements specifically, but when it comes to costume pieces, having more choices in general is never a bad thing. As far as anime's influence on my character designs, the general concepts are mostly like western comics, but western comics don't have as much of an influence on their appearances.

Among my character roster, I tend to think of Spectreblade as the title character of his "comic book", and my villains as his "Rogues' Gallery". When I was first starting to experiment with alts, those alts were mostly villains, mainly for that purpose. Now that it's grown into full-blown altoholism, my hero/villain ratio has started to even out, as Spectreblade has made more friends in the hero community. I wouldn't exactly call their costumes "anime-style", but they tend to be more practical in nature and more closely tied to the character's concept than a simple symbol on their chest. The only real "cape and tights" outfit among them is on the Peacebringer I'm working on right now.

There are some exceptions, though. I do have a character named "Magical Motoko" among my heroes, and my main villain Orochi Dragon is a Ninja/Poison Mastermind, though he's inspired by Japanese historical culture rather than popular culture, being based on the mythical Yamata no Orochi (as a number of other anime and game villains are). But as far as their personal stories, Motoko is basically Spectreblade's sidekick, and Orochi Dragon is the arch-villain (not to mention the medieval "Knight vs. Dragon" theme).

I also have a few "power armor" heroes, which appear in both eastern and western comics.

I'm pretty sure Titan Weapons would not exist without the influence of anime/manga.

And I'm still waiting for my magical girl costume set, whatever Nihilli thinks. They can make it available to male and huge models too, I don't care!

You know, this thread's made me realize something: the biggest difference between Anime heroes and Comicbook super heroes is that (usually) anime heroes have a fairly narrow focus in adversaries compared to a Western Superhero.
These enemies may or may not actually commit 'mundane' crimes, and, ironically, a lot of anime heroes are more likely to fight mundane crimes in their civilian personas.
Anyway though, let's look at some examples:

Batman's enemies include The Joker (Insane Clown [s]posse[/s], but otherwise normal dude), Mr. Freeze (love/revenge motivated scientist in a cryogenics suit), Poison Ivy (Plant/Nature controller), Raz Al-Ghul (immortal machinator who is immortal via magical hot springs (I'm sure there's a fic somewhere where Raz mistakes Jusenkyo as Lazuras Pits)), and Catwoman.
As you can see, Batman's enemies fill in a BROAD spectrum, some of which is the result of other writers and the natural evolution of time. Now let's look at...

Ichigo Kurosaki's enemies: Hollows (Hollows everywhere!), other Shinigami, Shinigami and hollow hybrids, and Aizen's dickery. All of them fall into the broader category of "spirits" with "supernatural goals".
All in all, for all the cracks on can make, he's pretty damn focused.

Then there's Monkey D Luffy who's enemies include: pirates, pirates, more pirates, marines, and a small handful of others (okay, I don't really watch one piece, but this is fairly accurate, right?) And for all his bouncing around, Luffy too is actually able to focus on one type of enemy for more than one storyline.

Back on the West side, even groups who might not be called super heroes still fight a broad range of enemies. The Manhattan Clan of Gargoyles fought: Fair Folk, another Gargoyle, vikings, evil magicians, robots, cyborgs, MacBeth, and a corporate executive who makes Nemesis look like Shirou Emiya when it comes to plotting.

Gargoyles didn't even have the enormous run length Superman, Batman, Iron Man, and other super heroes do but the Manhattan Clan still suffered from nemesis ADHD.

Speaking of Shirou Emiya, here's his opponent rundown list: Magicians, souls of ancient heroes summoned by said magicians, black stuff, and (in a possible future) mundane soldiers/mercs. I use Shirou here since he does list his life goal as becoming a Hero of Justice.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.