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No, it's not, but Zwillinger and Synapse said as recently as last week's Coffee Talk about how important allowing players to realize their concept.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The answer is: this game is about development. We don't have some powers available at 8 and some at 38 just because we don't want to confuse players. We do that because power progression and level gating is part of the gameplay of the game. I understand the desire to create a fully realized and fully formed character as early as possible, but this game isn't designed around that principle.
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What I'm on about is not "we have to have all the pieces now at level 6", it's about "you're not currently allowed any of these pieces period (because the sets don't exist despite the fact we have the powers in game already to make them) and the ones you do get don't come until 35+, after you're already more than half way into your character's career for no good reason".
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| Addressing the OP, I don't think all of the restrictions we operate under are "training wheels" that were only necessary because we as a playerbase were uneducated. |
But the fact is, some of the restrictions that do stand are just silly and nonsensical. The fact that we don't have to worry as much now about the training wheel aspect means we could probably get away with softening or removing those restrictions in many cases.
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| We tamper with them without fully understanding their value at our own peril. What only damaged a brand new game would probably destroy this one. |
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| But I think its important to note that just because the devs are heading in the same direction, doesn't mean they intend to go to the same destination. I don't think the devs believe the primary goal of this game is to allow people to make whatever comic book character concepts they want, regardless of how powerful they are. |
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| The question is a matter of degree. To what degree do we compromise in different areas to gain the best possible game with the best possible ability to represent comic book inspired character concepts. Its not a question of evolving past one of those requirements, its a question of refining the balance between them. |
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There is no hyperbole in that. And the fear, which I share, is likely more on her end than yours.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
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We have only one datapoint anywhere in the world that directly and unequivocally addresses the question of what happens when you eliminate class distinctions from an MMO but for the most part keep most of the other major structural design decisions similar, and that datapoint confirms bad things happen. Everything else is theoretical, but whether it *can* have extremely deleterious effects on the game is not theory. Its history.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Now you're the one using hyperbole and scare tactics.
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So long as people are sensible about who is what archtype and remember that Comicbook power levels vary *wildly* from comic to comic. In all reality I would dispense with the out of universe comparisons and retcon the Patrons/Phalanx into proper builds of ATs in game so they can be used as examples.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I agree. I feel there is much room to to give some more ground to concept without throwing balance and good gaming out the window.
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I'm with you there JB! Some concepts I want to make, that we have the ability to make possible and sadly it just hasn't been implemented yet and may never be. 
Somethings may never seem it 100%, but there are ways for something to come reasonably close while you wait/hope they implement something closer to your vision.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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So you would limit the developers' concept choices in how they can design characters in the hopes we would have one less excuse for wanting our own concepts to be similarly realized?|
Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
In all reality I would dispense with the out of universe comparisons and retcon the Patrons/Phalanx into proper builds of ATs in game so they can be used as examples.
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I think that's kind of...backwards, to put it politely.
I can only speak for myself, but I want my concepts because they are my concepts. If I want an Inv/EM Tanker that can also fire psionic blasts, it's not because the Honoree exists on the LGTF.
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Excuse me but What? I didn't mention about limiting your customization. Infact I am for every AT getting the proper sets that match their primary/secondary slots. I also think they need another round of epic expansions to match the power sets that have gone into the game.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So you would limit the developers' concept choices in how they can design characters in the hopes we would have one less excuse for wanting our own concepts to be similarly realized?
I think that's kind of...backwards, to put it politely. I can only speak for myself, but I want my concepts because they are my concepts. If I want an Inv/EM Tanker that can also fire psionic blasts, it's not because the Honoree exists on the LGTF. . |
and note that Honoree's psi blast is an APP, and he honestly doesn't have any thing else from a Psi based APP, also Psi Themed APP for tankers please?
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That's not what you said. You said "[I would] retcon the Patrons/Phalanx into proper builds of ATs in game so they can be used as examples."|
Originally Posted by ryu_planeswalker
Excuse me but What? I didn't mention about limiting your customization. Infact I am for every AT getting the proper sets that match their primary/secondary slots. I also think they need another round of epic expansions to match the power sets that have gone into the game.
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The Patrons and Phalanx characters do not conform to to the current AT power sets in this game so in order to retcon them into that, as you said you want to do, you would need to remove the powers that don't fit the AT system, thus limiting them to the Primary, Secondary and Epic pools that we have currently. In addition to that, some Patrons/Phalanx have powers from multiple primaries and secondaries. For example, Back Alley Brawler has both Energy Melee and Super Strength attacks. So in order to "retcon him into a proper build of an AT" he would have to lose some of those attacks.
What I think you may have meant, based on your latest reply, is that you would like to see more Epic Pools made that compliment the same concept as every AT's primary and secondary. A Psionic Mastery Epic pool for Scrappers, for example, to compliment the upcoming Psionic Melee set as a Primary and Willpower as a Secondary? But how does that relate to the Patrons and Phalanx?
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Which game was this, if I may ask?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We have only one datapoint anywhere in the world that directly and unequivocally addresses the question of what happens when you eliminate class distinctions from an MMO but for the most part keep most of the other major structural design decisions similar, and that datapoint confirms bad things happen. Everything else is theoretical, but whether it *can* have extremely deleterious effects on the game is not theory. Its history.
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Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
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In my opinion, the degree should be 99.99999% making a fun game, and 0.00001% trying to clone comic book characters.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The question is a matter of degree.
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I really should do something about this signature.
That doesn't work though, because the definition of "fun" varies wildly. I think they've done a pretty good job over the years of striking balances between the various factions of "gamers" and "comic book geeks". Except PvPers (or did they fix that while I was gone, too?). 
Dec out.
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Whatever one or two people seem to think, a game where you can have any ability you like isn't going to stay fun for anyone very long.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
That doesn't work though, because the definition of "fun" varies wildly. I think they've done a pretty good job over the years of striking balances between the various factions of "gamers" and "comic book geeks". Except PvPers (or did they fix that while I was gone, too?).
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My concept is, my character can alter any part of reality in any way they like at any time. If the game doesn't let me play my concept it is fail.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Not mildly, no.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
So...you're mildly insane, then?
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I really should do something about this signature.
The devs can give the NPCs any power combinations they like, as they can trust them to use them sensibly 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The second game the Cryptic team worked on after this one, and the first that saw the light of day.|
Originally Posted by Kasoh
Which game was this, if I may ask?
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I wish I knew more about the first one. I only have sketchy fragments that I'm not really supposed to know in the first place. Because I have a feeling Cryptic learned or believed they learned a design lesson working on MUO that involves power system complexity, and that translated into making CO's power system much, much simpler.
Then they added crafting on top. But I think the evolutionary process from City of Heroes to MUO to CO would be an interesting one to study, because its a rather unique situation where the same company with overlapping design people created essentially the same MMO three times in a very short span of time, but *not* as part of a connected series (meaning, it was the same game in broad strokes, but conversely they were not allowed to reuse specific content or implementation - they had to redo the same basic MMO concept from scratch three times, which means they had to completely rethink the problem three times).
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The end result from an outsider's perspective seems almost like they threw out the lessons learned from working on the previous versions before making the third.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The second game the Cryptic team worked on after this one, and the first that saw the light of day.
I wish I knew more about the first one. I only have sketchy fragments that I'm not really supposed to know in the first place. Because I have a feeling Cryptic learned or believed they learned a design lesson working on MUO that involves power system complexity, and that translated into making CO's power system much, much simpler. Then they added crafting on top. But I think the evolutionary process from City of Heroes to MUO to CO would be an interesting one to study, because its a rather unique situation where the same company with overlapping design people created essentially the same MMO three times in a very short span of time, but *not* as part of a connected series (meaning, it was the same game in broad strokes, but conversely they were not allowed to reuse specific content or implementation - they had to redo the same basic MMO concept from scratch three times, which means they had to completely rethink the problem three times). |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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If you were in the beta, you'd know its a lot more complicated, and stranger, than that.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
The end result from an outsider's perspective seems almost like they threw out the lessons learned from working on the previous versions before making the third.
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Way, way stranger. That thing was all over the place, design-wise.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you were in the beta, you'd know its a lot more complicated, and stranger, than that.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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An important qualifier, because if you'd said MOG, it wouldn't be true. Canny, don't you know LPC?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
from an MMO
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That's true: it is fail. The extent of the failure vis-a-vis the playability of the game is wholly subjective, but it is an inarguable fact that the game has failed in respect to allowing you to properly create and play that particular character concept.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
My concept is, my character can alter any part of reality in any way they like at any time. If the game doesn't let me play my concept it is fail.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I'm with Arcana on this one. I've seen reactions to "more power" suggestions take arguments to an extreme and suggest we're asking for all powers at level 1 and an insta-kill button when that's really not the case. Level progression, increasing in strength and going through the whole experience are a major part of this game. Losing all of this would not just be a mistake, but it would harm the game, as well. I, myself, don't really mind my characters not being godlike at the start, even when they're supposed to be literal gods. Explanations for why their power is being suppressed FOR NOW aren't that hard to come by.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The answer is: this game is about development. We don't have some powers available at 8 and some at 38 just because we don't want to confuse players. We do that because power progression and level gating is part of the gameplay of the game. I understand the desire to create a fully realized and fully formed character as early as possible, but this game isn't designed around that principle.
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However, I don't think that extends to class balance. To me, class balance isn't so much "part of the game" as it's a safety net to ensure greater replayability. We have to ensure there's a reason to play every AT, at the very least for the people who enjoy their respective playstyles, and we need to ensure people don't feel stupid for picking an AT they like which is somehow objectively inferior. But what that DOESN'T mean is that we need to stick to the old "rock-paper-scissors" approach of the holy trinity. I think we're well past trying to figure out what "role" each character is supposed to have on a team.
Once upon a team, I PMed an AT suggestion directly to Castle (on request by posters from the suggestion thread) and his reply was, in part, to ask what role this AT would serve on a team. At the time, his question made sense, this was years ago, but now? I really don't think this is relevant any more, because it kind of sort of assumes a system where characters are defined by what they NEED to do but CAN'T, for which role another on the team is needed. To me, the game as I see it now has only one major role - help kill stuff. Because this can be accomplished in so many different ways by so many different combinations of characters, I really don't think we should keep asking what this character's role is.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But that's true in every game. Even the most restrictive trinity-style MMO's still is all about killing stuff, and how to do so.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm with Arcana on this one. I've seen reactions to "more power" suggestions take arguments to an extreme and suggest we're asking for all powers at level 1 and an insta-kill button when that's really not the case. Level progression, increasing in strength and going through the whole experience are a major part of this game. Losing all of this would not just be a mistake, but it would harm the game, as well. I, myself, don't really mind my characters not being godlike at the start, even when they're supposed to be literal gods. Explanations for why their power is being suppressed FOR NOW aren't that hard to come by.
However, I don't think that extends to class balance. To me, class balance isn't so much "part of the game" as it's a safety net to ensure greater replayability. We have to ensure there's a reason to play every AT, at the very least for the people who enjoy their respective playstyles, and we need to ensure people don't feel stupid for picking an AT they like which is somehow objectively inferior. But what that DOESN'T mean is that we need to stick to the old "rock-paper-scissors" approach of the holy trinity. I think we're well past trying to figure out what "role" each character is supposed to have on a team. Once upon a team, I PMed an AT suggestion directly to Castle (on request by posters from the suggestion thread) and his reply was, in part, to ask what role this AT would serve on a team. At the time, his question made sense, this was years ago, but now? I really don't think this is relevant any more, because it kind of sort of assumes a system where characters are defined by what they NEED to do but CAN'T, for which role another on the team is needed. To me, the game as I see it now has only one major role - help kill stuff. Because this can be accomplished in so many different ways by so many different combinations of characters, I really don't think we should keep asking what this character's role is. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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It would help if you quoted smaller portions of my post. It's hard to tell what you're referring to |
Originally Posted by Arilou
But that's true in every game. Even the most restrictive trinity-style MMO's still is all about killing stuff, and how to do so.
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You're right, you can say the same for a lot of MMOs, but most aren't designed to work with any mish-mash of characters. WoW raids still don't let you go unless you have people commit to play tank, healer and damage dealer and even ******* Tera tells you to get a tank, someone to heal and someone to deal damage. What's wrong with the Holy Trinity is that it's strict with its roles and if you don't fill those roles, you fail.
That's not true in City of Heroes. You can play on a team of just Scrappers, you can play on a team of just Blasters and a team of just Defenders is outright evil. People COULD try and fill roles on a team, and the team will probably do even better... But they don't have to. So if you create a character without a defined role on a team, there's nothing wrong with that. He can still help out kill stuff. It doesn't matter if he's support, control, damage or stealth or what have you. Any character that's reasonably powerful - think baseline - will help a team even if that character doesn't fill a specific role.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As a general observation, one issue the thread appears to be dancing around is why in general should the game put any "unnecessary" hurdles between a player and their complete character design concept.
The answer is: this game is about development. We don't have some powers available at 8 and some at 38 just because we don't want to confuse players. We do that because power progression and level gating is part of the gameplay of the game. I understand the desire to create a fully realized and fully formed character as early as possible, but this game isn't designed around that principle.
Addressing the OP, I don't think all of the restrictions we operate under are "training wheels" that were only necessary because we as a playerbase were uneducated. Sure, the original devs believed strongly that it was important to control options to prevent players from making objectively bad decisions, but in the same way the game itself outgrew their original notions of conventional MMO play, many of the limits within the game such as archetypal constraints and power progression constraints also grew to become integral to the long-term survival of the game. They became fundamental to the replay value of the game, and I consider it an objectively proven statement that when the original devs attempted to remove those limits in their next venture, every theoretical problem associated with removing those limits became fully realized.
We tamper with them without fully understanding their value at our own peril. What only damaged a brand new game would probably destroy this one.
In either event, while the details surrounding the idea are suspect, its also true that in general the devs have been moving to more "self-sufficient" characters, and that's not a new trend. It started with CoV, if not earlier. Cov was explicitly designed with the Trinity Axiom removed. All CoV archetypes are explicitly designed to be self-sufficient and not require teaming to realize their potential. CoH archetypes, pre-existing that design ethic, have been slower to move in that direction, but have done so over time. Tankers are doing over 50% more damage than they originally did between archetype modifier changes and secondary set changes: they do more damage now than release-blasters did. Controllers deal far more damage outside of pets than they used to due to containment, which in net effect places them into a comparable damage space as Corruptors. Even Defenders do more damage solo, and recent changes are targeted at making Blasters significantly more survivable.
But I think its important to note that just because the devs are heading in the same direction, doesn't mean they intend to go to the same destination. I don't think the devs believe the primary goal of this game is to allow people to make whatever comic book character concepts they want, regardless of how powerful they are. This game is a game first, and comic book inspired second. In much the same way a computerized version of the HERO system would be a complete disaster, a computerized version of whatever every comic book author decided to make up over the last fifty years would be equally disasterous for an MMORPG.
The question is a matter of degree. To what degree do we compromise in different areas to gain the best possible game with the best possible ability to represent comic book inspired character concepts. Its not a question of evolving past one of those requirements, its a question of refining the balance between them.
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