Quote:
Or... you know, you just make them face gods.|
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
How do you build a game where the main character is essentially god? The traditional strategy has been to either create contrived, stupid reasons as to why he can't take full advantage of his god-like powers, or alternatively, you pretend he doesn't have god-like powers in the first place. Neither approach has lead to very good games.
|
In my opinion, giving even level 1 characters the ability to take several hundread bullets and not die is rather godlike. Sure, nothing compared to taking a billion bullets, but I wish I was super enough to take 5 bullets to the chest without bleeding to death at the hand of a random thug.
Quote:
...and it was sold at firesale prices.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Jack did.
|
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I find it a stretch to say that just because we can't self-buff like in comics, it's because of some arbitrary issue of translating comics to games. Especially in this game, adding a self-buff aspect to team-buff powers would just be a matter of making it cost more in endurance, since END seems to be the currency of Defenders if you consider Vigilance.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Quote:
I disagree. Most are.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Also, not all superheroes are Tank-Mages. Most of the best ones aren't, in fact.
|
Every single character in the Avengers movie for example.
There was nobody on the team in that movie that wasn't good at fighting, surviving and every single one was a DPSer. Neither of the two baddass normal ranged attack users, Mr. Arrow and Ms. Dual Pistols, fell on their face or were unable to to stand on their own in the battle. They were not glass cannons by any means. Indeed she is clearly as good a fighter as any Scrapper and even 'tanked' for Mr. Shield at one point, IIRC. Neither of the team's bricks were poor fighters. Tony Snark, in the most egregious example of flouting the restrictions this game was built around, is both a ranged attacker and is explicitly armoured. They don't have the same crippling deficiencies that were designed into the AT and powers system originally (that I have to again point out the current developers are slowly getting away from, thankfully) and obviously most people didn't find them boring.
.
Quote:
Again, you're comparing Plot Armor to actual strength. If the plot had called for Ms. Dual Pistols to die, she would have. She could have, very easily, in this fight, but since they needed her later in the movie to do something, she was saved by the plot.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I disagree. Most are.
Every single character in the Avengers movie for example. There was nobody on the team in that movie that wasn't good at fighting, surviving and every single one was a DPSer. Neither of the two baddass normal ranged attack users, Mr. Arrow and Ms. Dual Pistols, fell on their face or were unable to to stand on their own in the battle. They were not glass cannons by any means. Indeed she is clearly as good a fighter as any Scrapper and even 'tanked' for Mr. Shield at one point, IIRC. Neither of the team's bricks were poor fighters. Tony Snark, in the most egregious example of flouting the restrictions this game was built around, is both a ranged attacker and is explicitly armoured. They don't have the same crippling deficiencies that were designed into the AT and powers system originally (that I have to again point out the current developers are slowly getting away from, thankfully) and obviously most people didn't find them boring. . |
But with no ability to add in plot armor or plot weakness to each individual player, the Devs have to balance around a reasonable level of power. Sometimes, that falls short of what some people expect, and higher than others expect. But it doesn't make it bad design.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
But as mentioned the game is not the comic or the movie etc..you cannot ignore this fact. If you cannot grab hold of that basic concept I would not blame the devs for putting you on their ignore list.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I respectfully disagree. PS, as someone who has been known to get on a soapbox I must say that was well said and not too hyperbolic. (I myself favor the hyperbolic)
Let me point out the Superhero "Cyclops", who to me is the archetypical Blaster. Have you ever played the old PS2 X-Men games? To my wife I would always say Cyclops was the best half a hero in the game. I still stand by that. My favorite character was the russian, Colossus. In one of those games he was not unlocked until WAY late in the game, after a special mission. He is that much more powerful than the regular characters.
When I say "Tank-Mage" I am not referring to someone with some Blaster powers and some ability to self sustain. I am talking about taking Colossus and giving him Cyclops ranged attacks. It is my belief that most other powergamers and min-maxers on this board are also referring to this type of unholy combination when they say "Tank-Mage."
PS, can i get one now? I promise not to let anyone else in the cities have one if you just let me have one....
Quote:
Semantics. Unless we want to go back to the Greeks, nobody today worships or thinks of gods as people who can do something that is slightly extraordinary. We have people who can take several hundred bullets and not die: they're called tank crews. I'm talking power cosmic. Which I'm sure you know but have decided to be deliberately obtuse.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Or... you know, you just make them face gods.
In my opinion, giving even level 1 characters the ability to take several hundread bullets and not die is rather godlike. Sure, nothing compared to taking a billion bullets, but I wish I was super enough to take 5 bullets to the chest without bleeding to death at the hand of a random thug. |
And I'll point out that superhero comics where the heroes fight god monsters every day aren't particularly popular anymore. There was a time in the 60's and 70's where the Power Cosmic aspect of superheroes was big news, but most people prefer Spider-Man and Batman to Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer doesn't sit around in a big fictional New York, he flies through the stars.
Not even Superman spends all the issues fighting gods. The comics (the good ones at least) involve his limitations. The fact that he has human problems. The fact that he can't save everyone.
Finally, if we decide that "god fighting" is the only way to go, congratulations! You've effectively destroyed most of the comics medium. Most Superheroes aren't at Superman's level; they have extraordinary powers that still leave them vulnerable and capable of vulnerability. How can you build a game where some of the characters are Spider-Men, X-Men and Avengers and at the same time allow for Superman and Silver Surfer? Can't be done. Super-Man makes Spider Man obsolete. The only way you can do it is with writer's fiat. Green Arrow and Bat Man should be burned puddles of pink slime, there's no logical reason why they're needed in a world where there contemporaries can fly past Mach 8, dance on the surface of the sun and hear a baby crying in Seattle. The only reason it works is because the writer's have total control over the story. In a gaming environment you are still left with the problem where you have to pretend that a man with a quiver full of arrows is somehow as worthwhile as a man who can't be hurt by arrows and can snatch them all out of the air. It just doesn't work.
Quote:
My seven year old self disagrees.|
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
Namely: there has never been a good Superman video game ever made in the history of video games.
|
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Quote:
But it does still follow some comicbook rules - like characters as AVs need a team to take them down, but can be soloed when they show up as EBs |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
But as mentioned the game is not the comic or the movie etc...
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As for this thread:
"Again?"
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Quote:
And those stories make for a great comic book run..... | Not even Superman spends all the issues fighting gods. The comics (the good ones at least) involve his limitations. The fact that he has human problems. The fact that he can't save everyone. |
.....but a lousy video game.
On the other side: Non-stop epic fights makes for a pretty fun game, but a lousy comic book story,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Hey I'm fine with non-stop epic fights. I'll just be mad if I can't beat up muggers, gangs with super-weapons and evil corporations. Silver Surfer ain't gonna go fight evil corporate security teams because he can blow them all up from orbit. I don't want to play that game.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And those stories make for a great comic book run.....
.....but a lousy video game. On the other side: Non-stop epic fights makes for a pretty fun game, but a lousy comic book story, |
Wow, I can't believe how quick you guys jumped on the "I know the content bandwagon cause it's Johhny "Tank mage" Butane." Read the post first guys, it's probably one of the sanest things he's ever written.
Quote:
I can roll any random hero, go to a atlas park, and be hit several times by a shotgun to the face. Blast energy out of my hands, defeat said shotgun wielder and just walk away and do it again without any medical attention needed. Thats just "slightly extraordinary"?|
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
Semantics. Unless we want to go back to the Greeks, nobody today worships or thinks of gods as people who can do something that is slightly extraordinary.
|
Last I check, we worship a guy that walked away from 2 nails, a piece of wood and dehydration.
I'm pretty sure should someone pull the above stunt, he will be worshiped. Unless every single other person does the same, though... and thats a problem with trying to feel godly in an online game: if everyone else is equally super, then nobody will actually feel super.
Quote:
| Not even Superman spends all the issues fighting gods. The comics (the good ones at least) involve his limitations. The fact that he has human problems. The fact that he can't save everyone. |
Quote:
| Finally, if we decide that "god fighting" is the only way to go, congratulations! You've effectively destroyed most of the comics medium. Most Superheroes aren't at Superman's level; they have extraordinary powers that still leave them vulnerable and capable of vulnerability. How can you build a game where some of the characters are Spider-Men, X-Men and Avengers and at the same time allow for Superman and Silver Surfer? Can't be done. Super-Man makes Spider Man obsolete. The only way you can do it is with writer's fiat. Green Arrow and Bat Man should be burned puddles of pink slime, there's no logical reason why they're needed in a world where there contemporaries can fly past Mach 8, dance on the surface of the sun and hear a baby crying in Seattle. The only reason it works is because the writer's have total control over the story. In a gaming environment you are still left with the problem where you have to pretend that a man with a quiver full of arrows is somehow as worthwhile as a man who can't be hurt by arrows and can snatch them all out of the air. It just doesn't work. |
Quote:
Also, /thread_win
|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
My seven year old self disagrees.
|
Quote:
Yet nobody complained about the climax of Dark Astoria. Or SSA1p7.|
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
Finally, if we decide that "god fighting" is the only way to go, congratulations! You've effectively destroyed most of the comics medium. Most Superheroes aren't at Superman's level; they have extraordinary powers that still leave them vulnerable and capable of vulnerability. How can you build a game where some of the characters are Spider-Men, X-Men and Avengers and at the same time allow for Superman and Silver Surfer? Can't be done.
|
Those missions existing in no way took away from all of the missions where the enemy are the original Knives or Malta or just thugs with SMGs. Nobody twisted your arm and forced your Kat/WP to fight Mot, nor should the game force someone else's flying brick to fight blue cowboys and ninjas by virtue of the fact that that there were no alternatives to that provided in the content and that stuff like Mot and Ruluwade are just now starting to appear in game. As long as you provide enough content for both extremes, cosmic and street level, there is absolutely no problem with having both in the same game. And even when you have a situation like we do already, with someone being able to solo Kraken or Kronos, that doesn't affect you putting together a SO'd team to do the same.
But none of that has anything to do with the fact that just because a character has guns, they're not allowed to know martial arts in this game. And because someone has Invulnerability, they're not allowed to be able to fire a magic blast. That was true at least until i24. Do people now see my point? Regardless, as long as the developers continue on the same path they have been, I'm happy. I think they could and should further that path by continuing to create more power pools and more epic pools and making the existing ones deeper. I'm also for softening the restrictions on the existing ones such as making them available earlier in a character's life (Ask yourself: really, why does a Scrapper need to wait until their 40's for Laser Beam Eyes? I mean come on) and perhaps even dropping some of the sillier prerequisites like needing Kick/Punch even if you just want Tough+Weave.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Profit
Wow, I can't believe how quick you guys jumped on the "I know the content bandwagon cause it's Johhny "Tank mage" Butane." Read the post first guys, it's probably one of the sanest things he's ever written.
|
.
Quote:
Well I think half the problem here is that you like comics that are more like MMA fights than stories. I prefer stories.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I am not sure how this turned into comic books... this is about the game. The question was: how you make a game where the main character is a god. Would be darn frigging boring if God of War was about this big tough god-killer dude that is sobbing all day about collateral damage and love triangles.
|
On the matter of "real gods": the whole frickin' point is that the man with god powers chooses to die on the cross. He can heal the sick, he can bring the dead back to life, there's no reason other than he CHOOSES to die that he has to die. And remember he's only God Jr. The other guy is a scary voice in the sky that tumbles down the walls of Jericho and CREATES THE FRICKIN' UNIVERSE. That's a little bit more than a shot-gun blast to the head. Again power cosmic versus extraordinary power.
The question is: how can you build a game where anyone less powerful than superman is even remotely relevant in a way that doesn't require writer's fiat? Who needs the World's Greatest Detective when you can see through anything, hear anything and destroy anything with a minimum amount of effort? The answer lies entirely with the writer. In any world where superheroes weren't chained down with writer's conventions there would be no need for bat-man. Why play a guy who uses arrows and little techie tricks when you're a Singularity-riding apotheosis machine? It can't be done.
There is no way to create a game where the conventions allow for both God-Man and Dude With Arrows to co-exist without it making no sense at all. Why is it that every time the X-Men develop a true Godhead character, the Godhead has to die? (Phoenix). Because if Phoenix sticks around there's no more story. There's no point. Being a blue-furred super genius or an almost unkillable weapon system is meaningless when God gets on the scene.
It's like the old Hawk-Man joke. http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/hawkman.htm The only reason a story like the JLA can be told is because the characters are constrained by the writers. If you want to have a game where players can be God-Man you are saying that you DON'T want a game where players can be Dude With Arrows or Sir Flies And Has A Sword.
Quote:
People have been soloing AV's in this game since I came in I8.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But it does still follow some comicbook rules - like characters as AVs need a team to take them down, but can be soloed when they show up as EBs
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
Considering some of his past prose that is not really saying a lot. Having said that in general I do think people are ok with more power pools(already coming well before this thread) and a general beef up of existing power pools(already coming before this thread).
|
Originally Posted by Profit
Wow, I can't believe how quick you guys jumped on the "I know the content bandwagon cause it's Johhny "Tank mage" Butane." Read the post first guys, it's probably one of the sanest things he's ever written.
|
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
That's because it is Johnny, so most of us already know he's just taking a different angle at the grease spot on the plains where the dead horse used to be.
|
Originally Posted by Profit
Wow, I can't believe how quick you guys jumped on the "I know the content bandwagon cause it's Johhny "Tank mage" Butane." Read the post first guys, it's probably one of the sanest things he's ever written.
|
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
I agree with some who are saying that was a well written OP. I mentioned that in my response. I still disagree with the premise, but give JohnnyButane props for writing his point well. And persistence. I don't actually think there is a grease spot there anymore. But a family of insects who once thrived on the carcass live. Yeah, must be something in their DNA that can be targeted.
Quote:
I want a story, but not a soap opera. |
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
Well I think half the problem here is that you like comics that are more like MMA fights than stories. I prefer stories.
|
My favorite comics of all time are Kingdom Come and Walking Dead.
Quote:
| If you want to have a game where players can be God-Man you are saying that you DON'T want a game where players can be Dude With Arrows or Sir Flies And Has A Sword. |
There are plenty of things you have to toss out the window for the sake of balance. It may "make no sense" as you say, but it's required for a game. Result is you can play the dude with arrows or the unkillable machine.
You know what's comics?
"The hero fails / loses / is defeated because the script says so."
Try that here. Players would scream.
(As they did about SSA1, repeatedly.)
How would that work for you, Johnny? You can have your godly tank, and handily defeat most everything... but every now and then, not all the time but sometimes, and you wouldn't know until it happens, you just lose. Nothin' you can do. Your powers, your skill, it all means nothing. Because that's how it's written, that's what the writer and editor say happens.
(It could probably even be coded, like the streak breaker we have now. Hook up the RNG and hand out arbitrary defeats every so often. No saving throw, no resistance or mitigation, just bam, dead / locked down and chain-held / whatever.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Personally, I don't willingly recognize the so-called "tank-mages" in this game. A REAL tankmage can do EVERYTHING!!!
CoH Tankmages can buff/debuff, do damage, maybe have survivability and control. a true tankmage has:
*DPS, both ranged and melee.
*Control, preferably AoE.
*Pets. Not just one pet, but a bazillion.
*Survivability.
*Buff and debuff. None of that "or" crap.
*Access to any and all forms of locomotion, at their maximum speed.
*Synergy between ALL of these powers.
Now. How to fit all this into an AT? Let's call it the Incarnate, in reference to the (Rumored!) original plans to have Incarnate as an archetype.
Primary: Let's assume we want the damage and control as the primary, for extra muirder potential. You'd probably be best off combining Assault from Doms with a Control set. We'll call it a "destruction set".
Example: Darkness Destruction:
*Dark Blast
*Smite
*Living Shadows
*Night Fall
*Gather Shadows
*Heart of Darkness
*Haunt
*Shadow Field
*Midnight Grasp
Kinda...All over the place, huh? I guess you could get some good damage out of the set, but it's a little gimpy.
Secondary: This is gonna be even HARDER. Okay, we need to mix defensive ability with buff with debuff with possibly more pets. How about I try...Robotics?
*Battle Drones
*Caltrops
*Focused Fighting
*Triage Beacon
*Equip Henchman (In order to have full synergy, it has to work on the Control pets, too.)
*Dull Pain
*Cloaking Device
*Force Field Generator
*Assault Bot
Okay...Also seems a little off. They probably have max values in everything, though, so it prolly won't hurt them as much.
Now, the movement is easy enough. Just give them all the movement as inherents, and let them slot as they wish.
You see, a true tankmage in this game would pretty much end up all over the place, and honestly, rather difficult to actually play. It's like the bad guy who absorbs everybody's powers and explodes. I'll give that min/maxers in this game can get pretty far. They will never be true tankmages in my opinion.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.