Zwillinger's Call of (to?) Cthulu
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-08-15 11:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Derleth's mythos stuff should be treated with caution, as his religous views led him to try and force the setting into a moral framework it was never meant to have.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Lovecraft was a product of his times, as were Poe, Howard, August Derlith, and a dozen other contemporaries. Moreover, these guys all shared their universes with each other. That's part of what made the Mythos great, but there are just as many people like myself who prefer Lovecraft's own works over the "expansions", both contemporary and more recent.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Sometimes being the first to synthesize a number of elements into a whole or a new configuration is its own genius. I may not have invented gears and springs, but if I invent a better mousetrap, I'll still get the world to beat a path to my door. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
To be clear, the *mythos* is great. But basically everything great about it was invented by other people.
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A recent issue of New York Review Of Books I'm reading had an article by Geoffrey O'Brien about the movie Prometheus in it. At one point it traces the genealogy of such sorts of films ("speculative science fiction epic willing the to flirt with cosmic pessimism", "the proleptic chronicle of a future depicted as so endangered it may not even come to pass, and so unappealing we might well wish it wouldn't"), running back through Forbidden Planet, Quatermass and the Pit, 2001, Solaris (which I still haven't seen yet). Then back through the written words of Arther C Clark, HG Wells, Olaf Stapledon, Philip K Dick, and, yes, HPL ("Ever since HPL, archeology has been an indispensable point of entry to the remotest reaches of the universe.")
The article ends by describing the film's "crushing cumulative horror that is finally the ground note... : the horror of time of the future, of the past, of the infinite spaces within where nothing exists but what is to be feared. The universe wants nothing from us except perhaps to feed on us... not the horror of alien life but of life in any form; not the existence of monsters but the monotonousness of existence..." Any fan of HPL should easily recognize the general thematic drift of such descriptions (and will feel at home reading this article), which I think goes a long ways to pointing out HPL's influence, whether or not he was being "original".
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That's why I prefer Lovecraft's own stories over the expanded Mythos most of the time.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Derleth's mythos stuff should be treated with caution, as his religous views led him to try and force the setting into a moral framework it was never meant to have.
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As someone once said, it would be quicker and easier to make a list of things he did like.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Lovecraft also didn't like seafood.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Eh. I might be willing to grant that Lovecraft was the Carl Macek of cosmic horror.
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I have to second this, strongly. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
"Savage" and "insane" I will give you, but the rest of those green words completely alter the mental vision I have of the place.
"It was a grotto" does not have the same mental image of a twilit grotto. "A world of mystery and suggestion" does not conjure up the same feeling as with the adjectives. "A world of mystery and suggestion" sounds GOOD... put those adjectives back in there and you KNOW it's not good! |
There's a huge (to me) difference between:
"It was a grotto of enormous height, stretching away farther than any eye could see; a world of mystery and suggestion. "
and
"It was a twilit grotto of enormous height, stretching away farther than any eye could see; a subterraneous world of limitless mystery and horrible suggestion. "
The first gives me, oh, perhaps a feeling of someone first exploring, stepping onto a plain with the hint of a city in the distance. There's awe, perhaps, but it's a very positive, encouraging description.
The second? It drives home the dark, dank, cold sense of the place, turning even "limitless" mystery into something not to rush in to, but to make you want to creep along the walls and peek around the corner first. It takes a positive mystery (suggestion) and turns it into not just something dangerous, not even something deadly, but into something you don't want to be caught up in. Even the later highlights - "a pattern of tumuli, a circle of monoliths" - benefit from the reinforcement ("weird pattern of tumuli, savage circle of monoliths.") Sure, a circle of monoliths sounds ancient, but planned - think Stonehenge. What makes them savage? What immediately comes to mind when I describe "a tribesman" versus a "savage tribesman?" One's fairly peaceful, all kum-ba-ya with nature, the other's in ripped skins, warpaint, screaming at you as he prepares to jab you with a wickedly edged spear. Two wholly different images.
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y know, on the surface...absolutely, but one common theme that i noticed popping up again that the voice that talked about the degenerate actions of non white english "civilized" people tended to be said in the build up when they still felt they and their whole worldview was in control and those poor deluded savages were just being ignorant and superstitious...until the reveal and suddenly all the pillars of the society that propped up their condescending view collapsed and it was actually the native peoples who were the ones that really knew what was going on. I can recall at the moment if it always turned out that way, but it seemed to happen quite a lot. so there was some social subversion in the writing. the educated white europeans tended to fare the worst when the tentacles came out.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yeah, that's another thing for anyone getting into lovecraft - his views on race are kinda... old fashioned
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In a way it mirrored the way that the cultural superiority of the white european, once felt purported to be an unassailable scientific fact, was suddenly crumbling due to a greater understanding of other cultures and their accomplishments.
Jack - the reference to "their black masters in their capitol houses" is not racist. "Black" in this context means evil/demonic/etc... In Lovecraft's day slavery was still a recent memory. The wealthy African-American was the exception and there were none of them living in "capitol houses" where rich and politically powerful people lived.
I can't think of any stories where he refers to African-Americans but if he did he would be much more likely to refer to them as "negro" than as "black". He wasn't making a statement about black people any more than he was about black cats.
I'm sure that if we hopped a time machine and interviewed HPL that we'd find he held some attitudes that we 21st century citizens consider racist, but that quote is not an example of such.
He lived in a different era, in any case, and "racism" could be broadly applied to most early 20th century writers who, if you asked them, would consider themselves to be culturally enlightened.
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AG, 2 things, first you are confusing "relaying facts" or Journalism, with "story telling" or novelist. two different things, just because they both put words to page doesn't mean they can be compared or should be judged in the same manner. a truck driver and race car driver both drive for a living... the similarities end there.|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Highlights added by me.
Unnecessary adjectives, all. Maybe it's the journalist in me. |
second, you seem dead set on NOT liking it BEFORE you read it. yet you asked for help in obtaining it in a stated effort to like it. this seems argumentative to me.
Dug, the candy descriptions had me rolling, especially the PB cup.
and in general, Lovecraft/Lovecraftian horror has always been one of my favorites, at least in concept, if i look to my right i am eye level with the shelf on one of my bookcases that has about 5 anthologies of lovecraft/lovecraftian stories. good stuff, heck GREAT stuff, but it has never given me any bad dreams. i can get wrapped up in a good book as well as anyone, but to have a horror novel carry over into "real life" emotional state is... i'll let you fill in the blank so's i don't offend anyone.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
Slick, that wasn't a quote, it was a parody or allusion. If you don't think Lovecraft was intensely xenophobic in every way, even for his time, you're in a very tiny minority even of those who do like his writing. (Look up his correspondences.)
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That's not really what he intended the message to be - he isn't being an ironic racist - he's being a genuine racist - and it's not like he was only racist in his stories - his letters to his freinds are just as bad.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
y know, on the surface...absolutely, but one common theme that i noticed popping up again that the voice that talked about the degenerate actions of non white english "civilized" people tended to be said in the build up when they still felt they and their whole worldview was in control and those poor deluded savages were just being ignorant and superstitious...until the reveal and suddenly all the pillars of the society that propped up their condescending view collapsed and it was actually the native peoples who were the ones that really knew what was going on. I can recall at the moment if it always turned out that way, but it seemed to happen quite a lot. so there was some social subversion in the writing. the educated white europeans tended to fare the worst when the tentacles came out.
In a way it mirrored the way that the cultural superiority of the white european, once felt purported to be an unassailable scientific fact, was suddenly crumbling due to a greater understanding of other cultures and their accomplishments. |
Even for his time, he was a major racist -for example, Robert E. Howard is casually racist in his stories in a way that reflects the period that he lived in - but Lovecraft wasn't a casual racist - it was an improtant part of his world view, and of his stories.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, then if we're making racist allusions then they at least need to be accurate ones. |
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Slick, that wasn't a quote, it was a parody or allusion. If you don't think Lovecraft was intensely xenophobic in every way, even for his time, you're in a very tiny minority even of those who do like his writing. (Look up his correspondences.)
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Is Lovecraft openly racist in his stories? Maybe I've just forgotten it. It's been quite a while since I've read him. I'm less concerned with his personal feelings about it because he's long dead and his time is long dead. I don't judge his stories any better or worse for his xenophobia. It was a different age and, as I said, even so-called "enlightened" people of the time would still come off as incredibly condescending and racist towards black people by today's standards.
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Examples? Note that I'm not being combative here. I'm interested in seeing this side of things since I've apparently glossed over it in my mind over the years.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
but Lovecraft wasn't a casual racist - it was an improtant part of his world view, and of his stories.
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"The Horror at Red Hook" is pretty overtly racist, and was written in reaction to his personal disgust at being forced by circumstances to live in an immigrant area of New York City.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Well, then if we're making racist allusions then they at least need to be accurate ones.
Is Lovecraft openly racist in his stories? Maybe I've just forgotten it. It's been quite a while since I've read him. I'm less concerned with his personal feelings about it because he's long dead and his time is long dead. I don't judge his stories any better or worse for his xenophobia. It was a different age and, as I said, even so-called "enlightened" people of the time would still come off as incredibly condescending and racist towards black people by today's standards. |
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
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I was a huge fan in my youth carrying the old Ballantine paperbacks to school had me labeled as The Antichrist by certain elements but I didn't notice the racism, either. I think it just sort of melted into the general archaic nature of the writing in general. It wasn't until I reread them in research for a gaming project that it leaped out at me. Reading the biographies by Joshi and others clarified it further.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Examples? Note that I'm not being combative here. I'm interested in seeing this side of things since I've apparently glossed over it in my mind over the years.
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Which of course illustrates an age-old problem: Do you separate the author from the work, or avoid the work because of the attitudes of the author?
@Glass Goblin - Writer, brainstormer, storyteller, hero
Though nothing will drive them away
We can beat them, just for one day
We can be heroes, just for one day
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A little bit of wisdom my wife oft repeats: "The English conquered large swaths of the planet in search of better food. Whatever they found they boiled to a bland consistency and grey colour."
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Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
English food is disgusting.
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Yeah, HPL was racist, xenophobic, anti-semitic, probably mysoganistic. He also disliked poor people, rich people, anyone who had a job when he couldn't get one himself, anyone who wanted hm to get any sort of a job... Also, he seems to have really, fundamentally disliked himself (and his work). Basically, he was a pretty messed up fellow.
All of that is key to his work, because as he said:
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He feared things and people he didn't understand and, partly due to various circumstances of his life, there were a whole lot of things and people he didn't understand.
| The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown |
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Hmmm...|
Originally Posted by GlassGoblin
"The Horror at Red Hook" is pretty overtly racist, and was written in reaction to his personal disgust at being forced by circumstances to live in an immigrant area of New York City.
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I see what you mean and yet, I don't see it as being that overt. My yardstick for overt starts at something more like a Fu Manchu novel. This is primarily a depiction of a slum situation where the degradation (particularly since it's a moral/mystical degradation) is part of the setting. It's not like HPL even picks one race to demonize. He pretty much touches on every non-western-european "race" there is. I did find the reference to the "sturdy Vikings of that section" to be an amusing bit, in contrast to the whole thing.
My overall impression is of a lot of people of mixed and often unrecognizable but low heritage. The "low" coming ultimately from their association with Lilith, in the end. I think that's why I've seldom read these stories as overtly racist, because the antagonists are nearly always considered to be corrupted by the forces that they worship or deal with. However racist HPL was, the stories present the fallen antagonists as just that - fallen and warped, rather than low, ignorant and horrible just based upon being born Asian, African, or Eastern-European. They're basically orcs, figuratively speaking.
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Originally Posted by GlassGoblin
Which of course illustrates an age-old problem: Do you separate the author from the work, or avoid the work because of the attitudes of the author?
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Since nobody's posted one:|
Originally Posted by _PhoebusApollo_
He did indeed bust out a Cthulhu rant during Pinn's Mako Week! Then there were like 2 dozen+ tentacles that popped up in one giant mob haha
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Also, this. (Yes, I even have the album....)
Edit: Odd. Photobucket edited it. Had a smaller version... now it's back to full screen for me, even though PB's is the smaller.... very odd.
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Yep. That's how he viewed non-whites.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
They're basically orcs, figuratively speaking.
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"It is true that I have sent six bullets through the head of my best friend, and yet I hope to show by this statement that I am not his murderer."
That's the first line of The Thing on the Doorstep, one of my favorite Lovecraft stories. I'm a fan of Lovecraft's writing, but there's no denying the guy was a racist - and not just against the people we would consider minorities today. I don't think he even gave much thought to them. My impression is that he spent more time hating on southern Europeans than anyone else. He also had weird and self-evidently untrue ideas about evolution (as in The Lurking Fear). Kind of a messed up dude in a variety of ways, and his love affair with adjectives wears thin fairly quickly. Still, despite all that, I think some of his stories are well worth reading.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Yes I saw that but I just assumed Zwill had forgotten to take his medication.
The one I found hysterical was on day on of double XP weekend he logged on and in typical NC Soft red letters was inviting everyone to join him in Pocket D for a possible free aura. At the time I was in the middle of an ITF working my DP/Poison Corruptor to level 50. Fora brief moment I contemplated sending back a message on LFG .. "Thanks for the invite. Now if you can just come back on Monday, after 9AM Eastern Time, I'd love to join you. Until then If I am on line I am leveling." Hmmmm let me think Double XP, INF and prestige or .. an Aura? You know come to think of it the jibberish post and the invite to Pocket D were not that many days apart.. Maybe Zwill was out of meds for a few days LOL 
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I'm reminded of Arthur Conan Doyle and his displeasure that the popularity of Sherlock Holmes was taking time and attention away from his more serious works about fairies and spiritualism. |
Originally Posted by peterpeter
He also had weird and self-evidently untrue ideas about evolution (as in The Lurking Fear). Kind of a messed up dude in a variety of ways...
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It was a strange time in a lot of ways.
Robert Bloch.
Enormous and eldritch and squamous is he *GREAT CTHULHU!*
If dwelling in madness is somethin you wish *GREAT CTHULHU!*
Then head to Rlyeh and swim like a fish!
Sig'd.