Zwillinger's Call of (to?) Cthulu


Aggelakis

 

Posted

Also how is Lovecraft's xenophobic casting of of those of not northern European decent in his stories any different than say Hollywood's default racial/ethnic casting of bad guys in movies? It reminds me of a quote from Thank You for Smoking where only Russians, Arabs and villains are allowed to smoke in movies.

The mix has changed a bit over the years. Russian and other former USSR or Iron Curtain countries are now the "new" force behind organized crime. Hispanics are often portrayed as involved with drug cartels in large cities. Asians are making a surge recently just not from the big three, China, Japan, Korea (except North). It's all Malaysia, Thailand and other non-specific southeast Asian countries are also drug gangs or hired muscle. Of course we still have middle-eastern terrorists. I think the only "foreign" culture that doesn't get cast as villains by default in Hollywood are Indians (well maybe in Amazing Spider-Man there's one).

Popular media always cast the minority, those that fall outside the cultural norm at the time, as potentially evil. If you don't understand why someone plays video games, read comic books, SCA, cosplay, anime, are goth or simply have another hobby that none of your friends and family participate in, they are suspect. Look how the media tries the identify the out of the ordinary likes some nutcase has and then blame that for why they're a nutcase. Society likes to cast the "strange and unusual" as threats. Popular media just gives society what they want to hear.


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Posted

As another semi-on topic thing, the Skulls revamp that's currently on the Beta server has them talking in broken English to represent them as being mostly drawn from the Eastern European community in Paragon City.


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City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
The text clearly IS racist. The question is whether it has any redeeming value beyond that. Since I originally read this story as a young person and found value in it, I believe that it doeshave some value beyond being a rant by HPL on immigrants.
I believe I stated that was up to you. I can't tell you whether the story has value to you or not.

Quote:
"There be those who say that things and places have souls, and there be those who say they have not; I dare not say, myself, but I have told you of The Street."

I disagree with your assessment. The story is contained in that final paragraph.
Unfortunately, the story is far more than that single paragraph, and includes several statements about immigrants and people of color wrecking the place because they're not part of the proper honorable Anglo-Saxon lineage. That paragraph could end a great many stories and still be applicable, but in this case it serves to end a fairly racist story.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
Also how is Lovecraft's xenophobic casting of of those of not northern European decent in his stories any different than say Hollywood's default racial/ethnic casting of bad guys in movies? It reminds me of a quote from Thank You for Smoking where only Russians, Arabs and villains are allowed to smoke in movies.

The mix has changed a bit over the years. Russian and other former USSR or Iron Curtain countries are now the "new" force behind organized crime. Hispanics are often portrayed as involved with drug cartels in large cities. Asians are making a surge recently just not from the big three, China, Japan, Korea (except North). It's all Malaysia, Thailand and other non-specific southeast Asian countries are also drug gangs or hired muscle. Of course we still have middle-eastern terrorists. I think the only "foreign" culture that doesn't get cast as villains by default in Hollywood are Indians (well maybe in Amazing Spider-Man there's one).
I am shocked, and insulted. Everyone knows that when Holywood truly wants to denote evil and villainy, they cast a Brit!


Always remember, we were Heroes.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion View Post
Your argument seems to be "HPL is a racist against Eastern Europeans" coupled with "HPL married a woman with eastern european heritage and Jewish heritage" Seriously? That's like saying someone is prejudiced against Black people when they are married to a Black person. You get that, right?
She was paying his bills. She was the one with an actual paying job.


 

Posted

Very interesting thread.

Setting aside the racism themes for a moment, I always found something interesting about Lovecraft's horror. It was apparent to me that he considered the concept of great age to hold a quality of horror. It's frequent in his works to directly tie ancientness with negative adjectives, implying that things that are old are intrinsically terrible.

It might be that for truly epic time scales, hundreds of thousands or millions of years, he meant for this to convey a sort of alien horror - gulfs of time so large might imply that anything so old is automatically alien to mankind. However, I'm not sure this is really what he was going for, as he presented it on much smaller time scales as well. For example, I remember him once describing houses so old they had thick layers of shingles on the roofs from generations of re-roofing, and this was written in a way that suggested to me that this great age made this place awful, even though it represented very approachable human time scales.

On the topic of his racism, I always believed he was intensely racist long before I read any analysis of his works. I enjoyed what he wrote, but not all the messages therein.

And I didn't always find scary at all things he seemed to think were the pinnacle of horror, even though I liked how he wrote about them.


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Red
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
I think a lot of this is partially my fault, for how I introduced the topic of Lovecraft's racism into the discussion. I combined it with my claims of him being a hack writer who is credited for a genre he merely helped publicize (and yeah, I'll grant it's legit to dispute using 'merely' there).

I can't really go say, "Oh, no, Lovecraft's fine, just ignore those bits" because I don't believe any part of that. But if you are *aware* of these themes, I can accept subjective or scholarly debate on his quality as an author regardless. The one quality doesn't determine the other.
Yep. It's true. It's Jack's fault. Er, that and that i like to shoot from the hip. A lot.

Points about Wiki being right sometimes, of course. I use it as a jumping off point myself (before doing research, if money is involved)

Talked with my Wife and friends about this over lunch. We have the hardback book mentioned it turns out. My wife had the citation above memorized.

Still, I had a great point. Was wrong, but it was a great point. Jack's fault.

PS, HP Might have been a hack, (I understand he denigrated his own writing) yet he has had literary sucvcess, influenced many genres, and gives me nightmares when I read his stuff.