Powersets that need review
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-22 09:28 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The stated balance point of the standard content is builds with the strength commensurate with SO slotting. Higher level slotting doesn't factor into that particular aspect of balance.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
If the devs don't take IO balance into account, then they're deliberately being bad at their jobs.
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Invention slotting is considered in other areas of game design, but those are not conventional balance considerations as most players use the word "balance."
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Oh, you're just adorable. |
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
If the devs don't take IO balance into account, then they're deliberately being bad at their jobs.
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Balance is not oriented around IOs. IO builds are allowed to, more or less, run around doing ridiculous things. They don't all have the same ability to do ridiculous things. But that's part of our fun, and it's why IO changes are so rare. Last major one I remember was the Blessing of the Zephyr change which was... ****, was that two years ago?
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Er, Ax used to be nearly identical to mace until Mace got buffed.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Ax is almost identical to Mace, and nobody complains about Mace under-performing, that I have heard at least. Ax just trades disorient for more KU and KD, which, if you want to keep things close for PBAOE fun, is a better choice IMHO. Solid AOE, and solid single target, with lots of mitigation; what's not to like?
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I don't think anyone is suggesting changes to Ax beyond buffing it's damage to be more in line with similar sets, like Mace.
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| As for TA, it's fine at level 50. It's just an incredibly late bloomer. And, as far as I can tell, it's not seen as under-performing on Trollers (though my troller TA is only lvl 20ish, so I can't attest to this persoanlly) |
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| , so it's only on Defs and Corrs that people seem to have problems with it. I can imagine the crashless nukes (Crashless nuke on an OS, with a DA or 2 out, yes please) and other blast set changes might make TA shine a little faster. But, the only thing I can see changing to make TA better in and of itself, is buffing early powers, that pretty much means nerfing later powers to stop it from being OP at 50, which isn't a trade off I want. |
Personally, I would like to see those earlier powers (Acid, Glue, Ice, Poison Gas) made much more effective but with longer cooldowns to reduce weapon-swapping.
Edit: This is what I would do to Trick Arrow. Firstly, I believe the tech now exists to have Flash Arrow ignite Oil Slick without it having to damage other targets. That would solve one issue. The other thing I would do is increase the radius of Acid Arrow to 15', increase it's resistance debuff to 30%, and increase it's recharge to 40s.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I don't particularly care about how bad designers view balance. Call a spade a spade. If they don't design around what can be achieved, they're bad.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Oh, you're just adorable.
Balance is not oriented around IOs. IO builds are allowed to, more or less, run around doing ridiculous things. They don't all have the same ability to do ridiculous things. But that's part of our fun, and it's why IO changes are so rare. Last major one I remember was the Blessing of the Zephyr change which was... ****, was that two years ago? |
If you add character upgrades in your game, you should model how sets react to that gear upgrade. Ideally you design a system by which your player build options (in this case, called powersets) react equally well to all available power upgrades, but do so in different ways. Yes that means you have to understand your game on a very deep level, so that you know how powerset X with enhancement set Y performs or does not perform.
Like Energy Melee. It doesn't perform. It's not BAD like Energy Blast is bad, but it's certainly not among the good single-target sets like Fire Melee or Dark Melee.
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Designing game balance around epic loot is how you get the 900 lbs gorilla in the room. No thanks.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
I don't particularly care about how bad designers view balance. Call a spade a spade. If they don't design around what can be achieved, they're bad.
If you add character upgrades in your game, you should model how sets react to that gear upgrade. Ideally you design a system by which your player build options (in this case, called powersets) react equally well to all available power upgrades, but do so in different ways. Yes that means you have to understand your game on a very deep level, so that you know how powerset X with enhancement set Y performs or does not perform. Like Energy Melee. It doesn't perform. It's not BAD like Energy Blast is bad, but it's certainly not among the good single-target sets like Fire Melee or Dark Melee. |
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I would be interested in seeing your calculations, because according to mine (tanker) EM has significantly better ST damage than Fire Melee, whilst also having massively better mitigation, by keeping the target stunned.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Like Energy Melee. It doesn't perform. It's not BAD like Energy Blast is bad, but it's certainly not among the good single-target sets like Fire Melee or Dark Melee. |
I really should do something about this signature.
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It wasn't practical in game design terms, and a shield throw power would probably have violated one of Marvel's trademarks. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Thematically Shield Charge is compensation for the fact that it wasn't practical to make a shield-throwing power
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Unless you can run a search and find even so much as one character other than Captain America that has ever used a thrown shield as a weapon. I searched at least 25 pages deep in Google and found none.
Since Cap is the only character out there who does that, it's a safe bet that Marvel has it trademarked and would throw a fit if we had added a power like that. A shield charge or shield bash is one thing, those are common maneuvers with a shield, throwing a shield is a gimmick of one specific character and would probably be off limits.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Okay, for Melee attack sets, I found a slightly old comparison thread that analyzes the various sets' best attack chain for sustained DPS. Thread can be found here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=132894
It does look like /EM is up there for ST damage, though I am looking through the thread and finding other sets that get moved up past it with various slotting changes (such as Stone Melee). This thread also is a bit old, so doesn't take into account more recent changes to the game, such as the Fury changes. It also might not take into account Arcanatime, which may affect various sets differently. So take it with a grain of salt.
I'm reading through it just to make sure something doesn't completely change the list, but it's a good place to start.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
There as several factors to take into account. ET, on it's own, has the highest DPA of any tanker attack. That means that spamming ET and nothing else would give you the highest possible tanker DPS. But there is the sizable (20 second base) recharge to overcome. In comparison, all Fire Melee attacks have higher DPA than equivalent EM attacks (not including ET). Thus, the more recharge you have, the more EM beats FM. With my IO/Incarnate levels of +recharge, I can hugely outshine FM. But even with SO recharge levels (and Hasten) I estimate that EM is slightly ahead of FM*. Of course, your primary will have an affect here. If it has in-built +recharge (SR, Elec, EA) it will do better with EM. If it has -Recharge (Stone) it will do better with FM.
* ST damage only, of course. EM is clearly bottom of the pile for AoE.
Stone is an interesting case, because the limiting factor here is endurance.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I agree with you for the most part. The problem is, where do you look at the balance of a set? Do you look at high-recharge cases, or do you use more "standard" recharge areas (such as a single recharge SO only, maybe with Hasten)? Also, remember that this is all just theoretical damage, too. If the EM hits total focus, and the team takes the target down before the hit lands, that is wasted damage that you can't account for. I'd love to see actual in-game numbers for the sets, but I don't think I'll ever get that. |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
There as several factors to take into account. ET, on it's own, has the highest DPA of any tanker attack. That means that spamming ET and nothing else would give you the highest possible tanker DPS. But there is the sizable (20 second base) recharge to overcome. In comparison, all Fire Melee attacks have higher DPA than equivalent EM attacks (not including ET). Thus, the more recharge you have, the more EM beats FM. With my IO/Incarnate levels of +recharge, I can hugely outshine FM. But even with SO recharge levels (and Hasten) I estimate that EM is slightly ahead of FM*. Of course, your secondary will have an affect here. If it has in-built +recharge (SR, Elec, EA) it will do better with EM. If it has -Recharge (Stone) it will do better with FM.
* ST damage only, of course. EM is clearly bottom of the pile for AoE. Stone is an interesting case, because the limiting factor here is endurance. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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The assumption is, if it aint broke, don't fix it.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree with you for the most part. The problem is, where do you look at the balance of a set? Do you look at high-recharge cases, or do you use more "standard" recharge areas (such as a single recharge SO only, maybe with Hasten)? Also, remember that this is all just theoretical damage, too. If the EM hits total focus, and the team takes the target down before the hit lands, that is wasted damage that you can't account for. I'd love to see actual in-game numbers for the sets, but I don't think I'll ever get that.
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I.e. unless you can show something is clearly, without any reasonable doubt, underperfoming or overprerforming under reasonably achievable circumstances, you leave it alone.
The link you posted is a good case in point. It clearly shows Spines performing well below the other sets. It has been confirmed that Spines is being buffed in issue 24 (yeah, it took 'em long enough...)
It's unfortunate that it was only done for Scrappers and Brutes, as we could do with data on Axe and Ice.
I really should do something about this signature.
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The problem with that is that we can't show for or against EM in practice, because there's no way to gather data on it. So it may be horribly broken in actual gameplay, but we wouldn't be able to show that because we don't have the data. Theoretical computations can only show you so much, and that's all that we, as players have access to. Or we can look at Rikti Pylon times with the various sets, and see how they do, but again, does that show you set performance in 99% of the game? Not really, no.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
The assumption is, if it aint broke, don't fix it.
I.e. unless you can show something is clearly, without any reasonable doubt, underperfoming or overprerforming under reasonably achievable circumstances, you leave it alone. The link you posted is a good case in point. It clearly shows Spines performing well below the other sets. It has been confirmed that Spines is being buffed in issue 24 (yeah, it took 'em long enough...) It's unfortunate that it was only done for Scrappers and Brutes, as we could do with data on Axe and Ice. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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EM is still better than most at nominal levels of recharge for single target DPS (the results are in take 2 used very low recharge and has EM as number 2 just below Fiery). And lots of sets have long animation powers. Corpse blasting is not a solid argument, it happens to everyone, it is just more visible with TF, but it happen with GFS, MG, KoB, etc.; how much of Fiery's DoT never actually happens (Fiery's on paper damage is always going to be higher than actual in game performance)?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree with you for the most part. The problem is, where do you look at the balance of a set? Do you look at high-recharge cases, or do you use more "standard" recharge areas (such as a single recharge SO only, maybe with Hasten)? Also, remember that this is all just theoretical damage, too. If the EM hits total focus, and the team takes the target down before the hit lands, that is wasted damage that you can't account for. I'd love to see actual in-game numbers for the sets, but I don't think I'll ever get that.
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I am 99% sure Arcanatime is used, Bill used it for the first results are in thread. It is worth noting that high recharge actually favors some other sets (at least according to Bill's results). Bill's first thread had high levels of recharge which does push Stone up above EM (EM maintains a good endurance advantage, naturally). Dark can also rise above depending on how good a Soul Drain it gets.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The problem with that is that we can't show for or against EM in practice, because there's no way to gather data on it. So it may be horribly broken in actual gameplay, but we wouldn't be able to show that because we don't have the data.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's very possible to design a set to react well to all sets of enhancements across the spectrum, from TO to DO to SO to IO and including Incarnate levels. The low end and high end aren't mutually exclusive when it comes to set balancing.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Designing game balance around epic loot is how you get the 900 lbs gorilla in the room. No thanks.
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Possible? Yes. Much more difficult? Yes. Just look at pure Defense sets versus layered defensive sets. You can easily add Defense with IO slotting, but it's tougher to add resistance to the Defense set, or get meaningful Regen on them. So a Resistance set might not be all that great on just SOs, but with Set IOs can be godly, taking far more damage than the Defense set can.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
It's very possible to design a set to react well to all sets of enhancements across the spectrum, from TO to DO to SO to IO and including Incarnate levels. The low end and high end aren't mutually exclusive when it comes to set balancing.
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Can it be done? Yes, but you need all sets to be able to compete equally with limited set options. Some sets benefit hugely from +Recharge, and others don't. How do you balance those?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Very broad strokes:|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Possible? Yes. Much more difficult? Yes. Just look at pure Defense sets versus layered defensive sets. You can easily add Defense with IO slotting, but it's tougher to add resistance to the Defense set, or get meaningful Regen on them. So a Resistance set might not be all that great on just SOs, but with Set IOs can be godly, taking far more damage than the Defense set can.
Can it be done? Yes, but you need all sets to be able to compete equally with limited set options. Some sets benefit hugely from +Recharge, and others don't. How do you balance those? |
Figure out what you want each AT to contribute
Build measureables to match those goals into each set for the given AT, and understand your system completely
Make sure your system is coherent, internally consistent, and makes sense
Do the math! Run analyses for the set at various levels of loot and keep an eye on performance
It's not easy, no. It requires diligence and complete comprehension of what is actually being built.
You'd have to be professional designers to do it.
I think part of what feels off about Energy Melee is that it tends to feel like the same power 7 times in a row with different damage and animations. It's all just Energy Damage, Smashing Damage, and a Stun. No debuffs, no buffs, no soft controls, no other hard controls, etc.
Battle Axe, Energy Blast, and Electrical Blast all kind of suffer from a similar problem.
If the devs are satisfied with it's damage and ST focus, and players want to avoid having a gimmick added (like Gravity's Impact), the solution could be as simple as adding additional effects, such as:
- -Resistance, Slow, or Immobilize to Bone Smasher (based on the name)
- +Defense or -ToHit to Whirling Hands
- AoE Knockdown to Total Focus (not damage, just KD in an AoE around the target)
- -Defense or -Resistance to Stun
- -Regen on the target or Cone Knockdown (again, not damage, just KD in a cone)
Or whatever, other similar kinds of additional effects that would increase what Energy Melee can offer without directly touching it's damage formulas.
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I think you are missing the point - ET is is (arguably) already the highest ST damage set available to tankers - you couldn't add any of that stuff without nerfing the set elsewhere.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I think part of what feels off about Energy Melee is that it tends to feel like the same power 7 times in a row with different damage and animations. It's all just Energy Damage, Smashing Damage, and a Stun. No debuffs, no buffs, no soft controls, no other hard controls, etc.
Battle Axe, Energy Blast, and Electrical Blast all kind of suffer from a similar problem. If the devs are satisfied with it's damage and ST focus, and players want to avoid having a gimmick added (like Gravity's Impact), the solution could be as simple as adding additional effects, such as:
Or whatever, other similar kinds of additional effects that would increase what Energy Melee can offer without directly touching it's damage formulas. |
And it already adds stuff - lots of stacking Stun. It's not varied or exciting, but it is effective.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I just want to shine in and say I believe "gimmick" added to powers is a great solution to these powers need to be looked at problem. |
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I think part of what feels off about Energy Melee is that it tends to feel like the same power 7 times in a row with different damage and animations. It's all just Energy Damage, Smashing Damage, and a Stun. No debuffs, no buffs, no soft controls, no other hard controls, etc.
Battle Axe, Energy Blast, and Electrical Blast all kind of suffer from a similar problem. If the devs are satisfied with it's damage and ST focus, and players want to avoid having a gimmick added (like Gravity's Impact), the solution could be as simple as adding additional effects, such as:
Or whatever, other similar kinds of additional effects that would increase what Energy Melee can offer without directly touching it's damage formulas. |
Yes a lot of the older powers should be looked at and what not but I think that adding something like a "charge or buildup" chance to jump ability to electric and updating the graphics will make players like me want to play them again. Just my two cents; I believe gimmicks make powers more unique. Do they solve everything NO Do they make you want to play and buy them YES.
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I don't know about comics but it would certainly not be the first video game to feature a character throwing a shield, in particular the big fantasy MMO has a shield throw power for one of it's tank classes. Now admittedly it's not a superhero MMO which does change things a bit where trademarks are concerned but it isn't quite as unique as you suggest.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Unless you can run a search and find even so much as one character other than Captain America that has ever used a thrown shield as a weapon. I searched at least 25 pages deep in Google and found none.
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Sadly, as much as I might like to agree with this suggestion, my feelings mirror Strato's here. I'd like to think it would be good, but have reservations. And, as it can already b e determined which sets are popular, I am uncertain about it's value..
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If only people could be trusted. Sigh.
I am generally an optimist and I actually have a very strong belief in the inherent goodness in most people. But even I am doubtful of the rate of honesty you would get. Besides, the devs can already see which sets people make, play, and keep playing. |
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And it gave us more freedom in what shields we can use as well. The Riot Shield Toss might be an Olympic sport in the Paragonverse but its not going to be a very effective weapon.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It wasn't practical in game design terms, and a shield throw power would probably have violated one of Marvel's trademarks.
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I see your points. More than that, I recognize, that while all opinions have validity, some just are more valid than others. And I will concede that mine might aren't supported by any research or numbers, but are just my gut feeling, and therefore are perhaps prone to serious bias.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The thing is I don't agree that Trick Arrow is "fine but late blooming". I agree that power-wise it is a back-ended set but I think that says something more about the quality of the early powers than the late powers.
Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow are both nice powers but they aren't inherently out of line for Tier 8 and 9 powers in a Buff/Debuff set. For example compare OSA and Emp Arrow to Fallout and EM Pulse in Radiation Emission. Obviously the powers aren't identical and OSA is obviously not as situational as Fallout (due to not requiring a corpse) but the basic power level is about the same. However the rest of Radiation Emission is quite a bit stronger than the rest of Trick Arrow. The debuffs provided by IR, EF and LR are quite a bit stronger than the combo of Flash, Glue, PGA and Disruption in everything except resistance debuff (and it's almost as much there). Now Radiation Emission is one of the stronger Buff/Debuff sets and I don't expect TA to be bought up to it's level but I would like to see it bought up so that it's somewhat closer to the level of performance that Rad, Traps, Dark and Time enjoy. |
But, from what I can see, the ability to stack debuffs, which TA excels at, is perhaps a problem balance wise. Since TA has no buffs at all, all it does is debuff. And, at some point, that's fine. Or even weak. But, it can be leveraged into something very nasty. As I have done, and I am sure, others have done even better.. I like that it can be leveraged into something awesome, but that it takes time and effort.. If you make it better at some levels, than it will be even better at the upper levels... And that leaves it being prone to being far overpowered by those that might want to leverage it. And you can guarantee that, given the chance, some will leverage it to the extreme.
So, barring also nerfing (which I don't feel it needs or warrants) the set at the same time, I don't think it can be easily buffed by any significant metric. There are a few exceptions, but I have concerns that any proposed changes would stay just to such narrow area.
As a last point, I'm not sure strait comparisons to other sets are valid. No other set is pure debuff, and thus, no other set can stack as many and as varied debuffs on a target as TA can. If it can use any improvements, I suspect they should mostly be confined to buffs or area. In most cases, I doubt that an enhancement of the values of the powers should be upped.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I'll forgive you if you forgive me for disagreeing with you.
The fact that it is considered late-blooming at all should be indicative of some kind of balance problem. Oil Slick Arrow and EMP Arrow are crutches holding up 7 other limping powers*. *Maybe 6, Poison Gas Arrow isn't so bad, anymore. |
Of course I forgive you. I value free discourse almost as as holy writ.
I still disagree. I like that all sets don't act identically, including maturation speed. I agree that the low lever powers seems week, but the finished product certainly isn't. Therefore, if you buff the set, you will buff the finished product, which is fine as is. If you buff a set that is fine in endgame, you'll likely end up with an OP endgame set. Which will require (or should) a round of nerfs. What would you nerf? I just don't know, but I suspect it'll be the t7, t8, and t9s. Which, as you pointed out, and I agree with, are on par.. So..
I think TA is a 'hive mind' set. It really only gets good when you have all of em to act as a hive, and act together.. I, personally, am OK with that.
Obviously, some differ.
As an addendum, I like that we've hijacked this from the all Energy Melee thread, which seemed to be it's fate. And I wonder where my Ax went?
EM: Return Energy Transfere to it's original animation! That's all the set needs to be fun again imo! A ST powerhouse! I never cared that my EM Tanker wasnt an AOE machine.
Regen: I'll go a different route with my suggestion, sense IH I think has less of a chance of returning to a toggle state than ET does of returning to it's original animation. Resilence...10% Def All.
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