Powersets that need review

Ax went to blither in the corner when Mace was buffed.

When people say they want Ax buffed, they don't mean to change the set. Just mess with some numbers so that it is more equal to its sister set.

Point 1: I think you're worrying far too much about damage numbers that really, don't differ by much.. Is Mace slightly better? Perhaps. How many builds can leverage that slight difference to much? Not frikking many..

Point 2: I can't comment at all on this. Not a troller type, and not an obsessive redraw type.


Point 3: I'd be OK with buffing the early powers, if those buffs dropped later. I don't think they will. Not sure that's even in the spirit of the game..

Yes, it's a bit behind it's sister in pure DPS. So but, being a hair behind, is that a measure of being horribly underperforming? I doubt it. I think think the pure KU/KD mechanic makes for more sustained pure AOE dps, but..


Even if I'm wrong, is it necessity that every set perform exactly as every other? If so, why not just have 1 set with a lot of skins?


Mind you, if it was just a pure re balancing, then I might be OK with it. But Ax doesn't 'under perform' and thus needs no review. But, it might not not compare perfectly to it's near twin. If I could be certain that it would just be made more like it's twin, I'd be less opposed. But, I see no guarantee of that, and as it does more than averagely well, I'll stay against it being changed.

Ok, there are two general responses I want to address to this post:

First stacking debuffs in general. From a very high level point of view there isn't any difference between stacking debuffs and stacking a mix of buffs and debuffs. There are few execution differences which tend to favor buffs over debuffs but from a practical point of view debuffing an enemies change to hit isn't really any different from buffing your team's defense. So while TA is the only pure debuff set the majority of mixed buff/debuff sets have a similar performance envelope but with buffs replacing some fo the debuffs.

Now your second point that TA stacks more debuffs than other sets is IMHO wrong.

Let's assume that TA stacks Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, PGA, Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow on a spawn (those are the AoE debuffs that can reasonably be used every spawn). That combines to unenhanced values of:
-6.25% To Hit
-20% Recharge
-90% Speed
-31.25% Damage
-40% Resistance
-25% Defense
There's also a pulsing sleep but the DoT from Acid Arrow will tend to break that

Now compare Dark Maisma. It can stack Tarp Patch, Darkest Night and Fearsome Stare for :
-37.5% To Hit
-90% Speed
-37.5% Damage
-30% Resistance
And a Terrorize mez (which is more useful than sleep)

Now it is missing the -Defense and -Recharge but those are the least useful of the debuffs and Dark is only using 3 powers to TA's 5.

What about Time? It can stack Time's Juncture, Distortion Field and Slowed Response for:
-15.625% To Hit
-65% Recharge
-128.5% Speed
-25% Damage
-30% Resistance
-25% Defense
And a pulsing Hold patch (which is better than a pulsing sleep patch)

The stronger To Hit and Recharge Debuffs will more than compensate for the slightly lower Damage debuff so the only place TA really wins is the slightly higher Resistance Debuff

How about Traps, it can stack Caltrops, Acid Mortar, PGT and Seeker Drones for:
-13.3% To Hit
-30% Recharge
-80% Speed
-53.2% Damage
-26.6% Resistance
-26.6% Defense
-1000% Regeneration
And a pulsing Hold patch

Although I'll admit that Traps has a very poor T8 and T9 powers (at least for now).

I could go on but I think that makes my point. TA has a nice range of Debuffs but it is far from being the undisputed master of debuffing it's only real strength is a slightly higher resistance debuff than other sets.

I will agree that TA isn't the best set out there. And I doubt anyone said it was, as is. But, if buffed, it may become so.


Among the things I want to point out.

1) Disruption Arrow, as it is, can be stacked, and that's a fun advantage.


2) You only seem to be comparing TA to the completely acknowledged 'creme of the crop' powersets. And proving it isn't the best ever is far from proving it isn't worthy of continuing in it's present form.


3) Debuffing an enemy affects everyone, while buffing only affects the buffed party.

4) Traps? I think this is a decent comparison, but... Traps has a mobility issue that TA just doesn't. TA can roam. Traps just cant.




Aedon, I get that you just don't like TA as it is.. It may not be your thing. And that's fair. But, as a player of the set, I think that buffing it, will only result in it being nerfed later... I'd like to avoid that. Hence my hesitation...

It's a 30 second duration on a 60 second recharge. It can only be stacked with a high recharge IO build.

You originally said "no other set can stack as many and as varied debuffs on a target as TA can". I selected the sets that allowed me to counter that argument. Yes, I did select the cream of the crop but that reflects the nature of the argument I was countering more than anything else.

Your claim was that TA was the best set at debuffing and I made the argument to counter that assertion. I selected the sets I did because they are all strong debuffing sets, I could laos have selected Radiation Emission which has similar numbers. Cold Domination (the other top tier set) is different enough that a direct comparison of debuffs alone isn't really valid. In fact the only set that I would say is primarily debuffing and doesn't meet TA's pure debuff numbers is Storm Summoning but it works in a very different manner to TA so a direct comparison is somewhat tricky.

I didn't bother comparing it to Force Field, Sonic Resonance, Empathy, Pain Domination, Kinetics or Thermal Radiation because those are all primarily Buffing sets so would not be expected to match TA's ability to debuff foes.

And the sets I listed can all debuff foes to an equal or greater degree than Trick Arrow.

The mobility issues of Traps are... greatly exaggerated. I have several trappers and even when leveling them using SOs (as is my wont) I never felt like I was having mobility issues and having to wait for key powers to recharge. If a team was moving fast enough then I often didn't need to use all of my powers but that happens with any debuff-based set.

And that's where you'd be demonstrably wrong. I like Trick Arrow. I also like Time Manipulation, Traps, Cold Domination (now that the shields are AoE) and Thermal Radiation (although only on Masterminds). I do know that I don't care for Storm Summoning. But I've leveled all of them to 50 at least once except for Cold Domination (currently level 30). I'm pretty sure I'd also like Dark Maisma if I ever get around to rolling one.

So yeah, I've played debuff focused sets enough to feel pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about when I say that Trick Arrow feels underpowered compared to the other debuff focused sets.

EDIT: Heck, I even like Devices so I'm stoked to see it getting buffed in I24.

You're totally entitled to your stance. I've played all the support sets to 50 except force field... And my FFeler is getting close, finally..

Traps is Far behind, based on the lack of mobility, but some folks don't care.. The others are all based on preference.. Some folks can't play Dark, so what. Some folks can't play rad, oh well.. Some folks don't know how to play TA. So sad..



And, I think you are underestimating Storm, too..



But, regardless, I suspect we'll end up with our own preferences. I tend to think I'd support TA, and rad, and storm, but, if you'd rather champion against them, so be it.... 3 of my favs..

I'm good with any buff to devices...

You are totally misunderstanding my stance. I have nothing against Rad, and honestly cannot see anywhere in my post that I suggested anything like that so I have no clue why you think I'm campaigning against it. I think it's one of the more powerful Buff/Debuff sets but I've never actually played it.

Similarly I think that Storm is a good set, I'd rank it pretty much smack dab in the middle of the pack along with Thermal Radiation. I don't care for it myself but that's an issue of play-style rather than numbers. I, personally, prefer Cold Domination to Storm because I feel like I'm doing more to help the team but that doesn't mean that Storm is bad (in fact I've leveled two Storm Summoners to 50).

Similarly I'm not campaigning against Trick Arrow, I'm campaigning for it. It's one of the four Buff/Debuff sets that I feel have performance issues. That isn't to say that any of them are unplayable simply that I feel they need buffs to bring them up to the level of performance other sets meet. I tend to campaign for it a bit more vigorously than the other three (FF, Sonic and Empathy) because I happen to like it more than those sets.

Well, if you call 15% higher DPS slightly better...

If you want to stack those powers that are stackable, you need lots of recharge, which means lots or redraw if you don't pair it with Archery.


Why would you want to drop the buffs later? The late powers in TA are only on a par with other buff sets. They certainly aren't better than the late powers in Time Manipulation, Rad, or Kin, which aren't burdened with feeble early powers.

Marvel's competition has a Shield Throw power.

Edit: Also, it wouldn't make sense to have the defense buffs when you have no shield in hand to deflect things.

It would need to be buffed a very long way for that to happen...


And Acid Arrow can't despite having a recharge that would allow it. Which means making sure it's not over-used a pain in the butt.

Disruption Arrow is an average power, and no one is suggesting changing it.

TA fairs badly whatever set you compare it with, because it's a control set masquerading as a debuff set.

But buffing one or two of it's weaker powers isn't going to change it's form.


Which would be a valid point, if TA was the number one debuff set. But it aint.


The above average animation times on TA attacks mean it's not exactly the most mobile set.




Like Aedon, I have played and like TA.

This is TA:

Some powers are weak, others are average. Weak powers could be buffed without changing the average powers.

This is EM:

Some mediocre powers, one very very overpowered power. The mediocre powers can't be buffed without nerfing the overpowered power.

Just straight animation time is actually not really a problem anymore. Trick Arrow has the fastest average animation time of all the support sets.

One of TA's main issues though is... how many of those fast animations have to be played firing arrows to reach a similar perfomance level of other sets that only have to use 1 or 2 powers. That's what tends to make TA feel slow.

For reference, fastest to slowest is:

Trick Arrow
Cold Domination
Kinetics
Poison
Force Fields
Time Manipulation
Sonic Resonance
Thermal Radiation
Storm Summoning
Pain Domination
Empathy
Nature Affinity
Dark Miasma
Radiation Emission
Darkness Affinity
Traps (because of Trip Mine and Time Bomb)

You'll notice that some of the really powerful sets are near the very bottom. Goes to show how much people will ignore how slow a set is if it gets the job done really well.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

Well also averaging the cast time of all powers isn't necessarily representative of the actual cast time required during play. For instance with Traps I'm not going to be dropping a Time Bomb and a Trip Mine at all (since they aren't in my build) and similarly Web Grenades are something I only use occasionally.

I do agree with the general sentiment though, the total time to apply debuffs is the key metric and Trick Arrow does come out somewhat poorly there due to the fact that it has to apply a lot more powers in-combat than other sets (which tend to have debuffs in fewer powers and can use out of combat time for the buff powers).

I might call that slightly better, yes, if I agreed with this number. And if I took this number in a vacuum, and didn't account for the secondary effects. But as I don't....



Again, as I can't specifically speak to trollers, which is the context of the quote of mine you took, so I'm lost as to how Archery even enters into it.
Thus, I don't have much comment, except to comment that if redraw is your big concern
a) I think that redraw is over-obsessed about (it's not like you're required to alternate attacks from TA and your other set, and if you choose to, that's your failing), and
b) Perhaps a weapon set just isn't for you. But because it isn't for you, doesn't alone mean it's in need of a rework.



Because if the set is fine in the end game, which I feel it is, then adding power to it early, that doesn't drop later will make it more powerful in the endgame, natch. And I'd rather a fix to TA not make it better early, just to make it potentially OP later, thus requiring a nerf at some future date.

I disagree, but, neither you your I can prove this point at present.


It can be a pain, I agree, but no more so than a lot of other powers. Ironic, though, that nobody is suggesting changing Acid Arrow. I feel that if TA is going to be changed, Acid Arrow is a prime candidate to have a minor change. I think upping it's area and perhaps number of targets, while leaving it non-stackable, and leaving all the other numbers as is, might be a worthwhile change, without making it too OP.

Mind, I'd not lobby for this change, as I don't think it's warranted, but if change were to come, I think this would be a good spot for one.



It is very controlly, I'll grant that, but so is Dark Miasma, so I don't think that trolly support set=bad support set. I also don't agree that it compares badly with *any* other set.

I do agree with you, that buffing (or even nerfing) one or two of it's powers will necessarily change it's form. But, if your contention is that it's form (trolly) is what makes it the weakest set, and than buffing some of it's powers won't change it's form, then it seems to be that you're saying it'll be bottom of the barrel even if buffed, and thus needs a total rework from the group up. If that's what you're contending, I disagree totally and vehemently.





So, Debuffs only work for the whole party, and thus are more prone to leverage if it's the number one debuff set? I'll make sure to let Cold, Rad, Time, Dark, Traps, etc know that one of them is best, and the rest can't do what they've always thought they could do well, as soon as we can agree on which one is the best.



Trickshooter beat me to this one, so I'll not add any comments here....



Like both of you, I have as well, except I really do like TA. Not hypothetically, not sorta, but I like it as is. I do think it could be tweaked slightly, without making a hash of things, but I don't feel it is warranted to mess with it, and risk such a hash, just for minor tweaks.


I disagree with your evaluation, but, even if I agreed with it, I still think a set as a whole can, do to synergies, etc, be better as a whole than it's individual powers indicate. I think this is the case with TA, and that is perhaps why it's such a late bloomer, not due to any one specific power, but due to the cumulative effect of the entire set as a whole once it's developed. If that's the case, making individual powers more powerful, will make the set as a whole more powerful at the end, and perhaps by more than we might suspect.


On this topic, I'll not disagree with you in the slightest. I'll not agree, either, though, as I know nothing about this topic. It's not a set I have any familiarity with. I'm happy to let all those of you that have played it hash this one out.

I will agree, that the set is wonky. Clumsy, even, in it's application. It certainly isn't the most elegantly designed set. However, one certainly can opt not to use the debuffs that aren't needed at the moment. I often skip all the defensive debuffs after I have a fight under control.

But, still, that doesn't totally fix it's wonkiness... But, buffing an individual power here or there won't do that, either. The only way that might be fixed is with a total redo from the ground up, and as I like it in it's present form, I'd be against that. If they decided to make a new TAish set, and learned from the first one, I'd happily give it a try, but not at the cost of seeing the one I enjoy go away.

I think most people would consider 15% a very significant amount. And as for the veracity of the number, it's carefully researched. But the thing is, War Mace used to be on exactly the same damage as Ax, but it was buffed because the developers felt that it was underperforming. The only reason Ax wasn't changed at the same time was because the devs only had time to look at the one that was being ported to Brutes.

It KD better than Stun? Is it 15% damage worth better than Stun? I don't think many people would think so.

But you haven't said anything to explain why you don't want it touched. Even if it wasn't under-performing, how would 15% more damage actually hurt you? I think I've explained how changes to EM would likely be detrimental to me personally.

Yeah. That's kind of the point. Getting average powers later on does not make up for a bunch of poor powers early on.

Wrong.

Read back this thread. Acid Arrow is exactly the power I singled out as in need of buffing. Why?

A defense debuff that requires a to-hit roll! What's the good of that?!

A Resistance debuff that is significantly lower than similar powers in Poison or Radiation.

And AoE that has all the drawbacks of AoE powers without being large enough to reliably hit multiple targets.

DoT which bring the drawbacks of a damage power without the befit of doing enough damage to hurt a rikti money.


No, my contention is that it has a bunch of weak powers (Flash Arrow, Ice Arrow, Glue Arrow, Immob Arrow, Acid Arrow, PG Arrow) without the compensating benefit of anything that is any better than average. It's controls are weaker than a controller, it's debuffs are weaker than a controller with a decent debuff set as a secondary.


Rad and Time are the best debuff sets, then Dark, then Cold and Traps and Poison, then TA comes puffing up the rear like a fat schoolboy. I thought everyone knew that.

Everyone knew an order you made up? Seems doubtful. Time is a fabulous set, but it is because it mixes buff and debuff. It is not near the top when you talk about debuffs alone.

I thought everyone knew this about the relative ranking of buff/debuff!