Powersets that need review
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-22 09:28 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The main issue here is that the results it generates aren't desirable, at least not to me. In this situation very high DDR defense sets like SR are mostly protected against defense debuffs, non-defense powerset combinations are absolutely immune to defense debuffs, and defense sets and hybrid sets with limited DDR would be the most vulnerable to defense debuffs. The moderate middle ground becomes the most harshly penalized, which is almost never the right thing to do.
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Originally Posted by Valorin
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but would it be possible to floor defense at 0%? This would allow adding defense debuffs into the game without excessively penalizing sets that have no (native) defense and put more relative value into having DDR for folks that are going to rely on defense.
For example, A DA scrapper (with cloak of darkness), an SR scrapper, and an un-io'ed Regen scrapper walk into a bar. They get blasted with a hellion's machine gun burst (-6.5% def). The DA scrapper loses the benefit of Cloak of Darkness (since it's less than 6.5% defense) and some of his IO bonuses. The SR scrapper loses a smidge of his considerable defense, but not much. The Regen scrapper, who never bothered to IO for defense loses nothing. Perhaps I'm wrong about how DDR works, or the mechanics of it, but it would seem to accomplish the goals we're trying to achieve (make innate defense from secondaries that rely on defense more valuable than defense gained from IOs). I don't know enough to know if this would be do-able with the system as it exists. |
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You are exactly correct, it's totally unrealistic. Your reasons are also valid, but the biggest reason that you're correct is that this dev team has given up on trying to balance their own game.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
I think it is unrealistic to expect any sort of nerf to existing set bonuses.
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I don't even have to reach for arguments folks, they present themselves to me.
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Please demonstrate that a rebalancing to nerf the top end and bring everyone else up to 90% of that top end would cost subscribers.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
I think it is unrealistic to expect any sort of nerf to existing set bonuses.
Alienating the player base at large because a few malcontents don't approve of the power levels possible is not going to help the game it'll kill it. That's all I really have to say. You can spout your "balance" rhetoric all you want but at the end of the day Paragon Studios needs money to survive. Any major nerfs on the scale of ED/GDN (which is what you guys are basically talking about doing) would kill the game. If we have to lose you as subscribers for not changing things to your taste vs. losing the whole game over a change that would be so vastly unpopular as to decimate the player base we currently have then so be it. |
I'd ask a different question... how many new players came into the game, tried out Energy Blast because they wanted to be Dragon Ball Z characters, died to thugs beating them up with tire irons while their SS/Fire brute buddy devoured the whole room in one fight, and stopped playing? One can only wonder at the lost potential there.
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Unless one is Rakeeb, apparently. Then, rather than only wonder, one can conclude that many potential subscribers have been driven away, more than would leave due to sweeping changes.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
One can only wonder at the lost potential there.
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One can only wonder how Rakeeb has reached this conclusion in the absence of data and precognition.
Also, I rather like the game as it is, as I suspect do most of the people here. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here, after all. I'm not saying nothing can ever be changed, nor that everything about the game is perfect, but "Rakeeb thinks it's broken" isn't a particularly compelling reason to radically alter the whole metagame and pull the rug out from under the rest of us.
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Are you asking for quantifiable proof?|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Unless one is Rakeeb, apparently. Then, rather than only wonder, one can conclude that many potential subscribers have been driven away, more than would leave due to sweeping changes.
One can only wonder how Rakeeb has reached this conclusion in the absence of data and precognition. Also, I rather like the game as it is, as I suspect do most of the people here. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here, after all. I'm not saying nothing can ever be changed, nor that everything about the game is perfect, but "Rakeeb thinks it's broken" isn't a particularly compelling reason to radically alter the whole metagame and pull the rug out from under the rest of us. |
I'm good at quantification. When you're good at something, never do it for free. PM me to work out a price for a thorough statistical analysis of the game's shortfalls.
Uhm, no. YOU'RE the one trying to make a point here, dude. YOU have to provide the data to convince us, and the Devs, that you're right.
Also, you'd need data-mining tools only the devs have access to in order to make you point. And even with that data, would you honestly be able to correlate "Made an energy blaster named G0k0" with "Quit in a week"? and be able to say that it was because his character got beat up? It could be any number of reasons. Disinterest in the lore, getting generic'd, disinterest in the gameplay, possible lack of grouping...
Can't say for sure, really.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Not gonna do the dev's jobs for them, Steele, and I don't work for you or the community. I'm taking up a determined opposing viewpoint and I'm not shifting until either I get what I'm looking for from the development community, or they come out and admit that they aren't able to balance their game to my satisfaction.
As to the datamining thing - sure, absolutely, i'd need to be able to do POL on everyone who quit to have a real sense of what was causing folks to walk away, but I listed a plausible scenario and you know it. Before I got fed up, I was grouping more or less continuously and I never saw one Blaster who wasn't superfluous. Were they entirely useless? No, not at all - but they could have done absolutely nothing and the party still would have cleared the +4x8 run on the strength of the melees by themselves, let alone when the controllers / dominators / defenders / corruptors / masterminds were backing them up.
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^^This.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
they aren't able to balance their game to my satisfaction.
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Now go away and let the rest of us get on with having fun.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Not gonna do the dev's jobs for them, Steele, and I don't work for you or the community. I'm taking up a determined opposing viewpoint and I'm not shifting until either I get what I'm looking for from the development community, or they come out and admit that they aren't able to balance their game to my satisfaction.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
I'm going to make a overly broad generalization that the Devs aren't doing things my way, and therefore they're bad and losing money, offer no support for this opinion, and then tell people it's not my job to back up my assertion.
Look at me, everyone! I'm awesome! And always right!
Why no, I'm not going to let facts get in my way. 
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Sometimes arguing with someone can be productive, even if there is no chance at winning the "argument" if only so other expectations get to read some logical thought and realize somebody is full of it.
However, sometimes, it's so obvious to everyone that individual is just full of helium that the best approach is to entirely ignore them [and add them to ignore list] and not fuel their lazy rants.
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presumably the devs can look at ED and see the results - because it was essentially the same thing. "Properly" built characters did 3 times the damage of unslotted characters. Fully slotted tankers were at the res cap.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Please demonstrate that a rebalancing to nerf the top end and bring everyone else up to 90% of that top end would cost subscribers.
I'd ask a different question... how many new players came into the game, tried out Energy Blast because they wanted to be Dragon Ball Z characters, died to thugs beating them up with tire irons while their SS/Fire brute buddy devoured the whole room in one fight, and stopped playing? One can only wonder at the lost potential there. |
I played an invuln tank back in the day. I was tanking an entire team's spawn of DE when a boss one shot my friend playing a defender. He stopped playing the game. It was impossible to balance given the massive disparity in performance.
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I'm better, and I still do it for free here. Also, there's no way to perform a "statistical analysis" of the game design's flaws without a level of sampling data of the game's execution you don't possess. And there's no way to do a thorough one in any event because most of the game's design has no statistical component. Adding the word "statistical" to "analysis" doesn't make it automatically better.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Are you asking for quantifiable proof?
I'm good at quantification. When you're good at something, never do it for free. PM me to work out a price for a thorough statistical analysis of the game's shortfalls. |
I do analysis of powersets. I do statistical analysis of probabilistic events. Technically speaking, the computational reviews I did of scrapper secondaries back in Issue 7 is a stochastic enhanced analysis, not a statistical one. An analysis of the game's mechanics and data would be primarily a systems analysis, not a statistical one.
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If you want evidence of how destructive such a broad sweeping nerf to the game can be you need look no further than when ED/GDN happened. It was a blow to the game that I don't think it has ever fully recovered from and that was years ago.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Please demonstrate that a rebalancing to nerf the top end and bring everyone else up to 90% of that top end would cost subscribers.
I'd ask a different question... how many new players came into the game, tried out Energy Blast because they wanted to be Dragon Ball Z characters, died to thugs beating them up with tire irons while their SS/Fire brute buddy devoured the whole room in one fight, and stopped playing? One can only wonder at the lost potential there. |
The population today is not what it once was and such a broad sweeping nerf would alienate players who are HAPPY with things as they are. Paragon Studios cannot AFFORD to alienate these people.
The fact that you are still playing the game without the nerfs basically means you're willing to accept the game as is.
The fact that MANY others (as evidenced simply by the hard on for soft capped defenses so many players have) would stop subscribing and stop playing the game because the characters they built in specific ways no longer function as they used to and have no hope of achieving that performance again.
I can't imagine on what basis you think the game's population would not suffer a decline in players but I assure you that, to put it simply, you are wrong.
At this point the devs aren't going to rock the boat in any extreme way that might alienate their player base because that player base is small enough as it is. Doing anything to make it smaller is financial suicide which I honestly believe doesn't seem to be getting through to you. The game would not be better for the nerf. The game would die.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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I design games for a living, and you know something? I agree with you. There are a great deal of balance problems in CoH, and to fix most of them requires an overhaul the likes of which would make ED and GDN look like a minor balance patch. Gutting IO Defense bonuses, massively reworking Incarnate powers, completely changing most powersets... I'd be happy to make myself more hated than Emmert to rebalance the game.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
One last thing - Arcana, you don't know me or what I do for a living. Don't you dare judge me. If you want to know what I do for a living, make a visit to Arlington.
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But as a game designer, I also know that balance alone does not a good game make. It's only one of a number of factors that lead to a quality game, and sacrificing the rest of those to achieve balance is idiotic. And it would cost everything else that makes CoH good to get it in the shape I'd want.
That's not a balanced choice.
We'll always have Paragon.
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So long as you're willing to judge other people's intentions and work ethic, indignity is ineffectual.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
One last thing - Arcana, you don't know me or what I do for a living. Don't you dare judge me. If you want to know what I do for a living, make a visit to Arlington.
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Heh, very sound advice my friend.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Sometimes arguing with someone can be productive, even if there is no chance at winning the "argument" if only so other expectations get to read some logical thought and realize somebody is full of it.
However, sometimes, it's so obvious to everyone that individual is just full of helium that the best approach is to entirely ignore them [and add them to ignore list] and not fuel their lazy rants. |
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
Back to the original subject:
Even with the the updates coming in i24, to me Devices and Traps still feel like they could use more tweaks. Don't get me wrong, Trip Mine and Time Bomb both have their uses and are great in their own way, but they could be improved. As has been said before, on fast moving teams I rarely bother with them as I feel like it's a waste of time.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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While I've suggested improvements to Trip Mine and Time Bomb in the past, addressing your last point specifically is it an intrinsic problem if a power isn't specifically useful on steamroll teams? Because most aren't. Even my Illusion controller's Phantasm is not very useful on such teams, but that's not normally considered a justification for buffing them until they are.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Back to the original subject:
Even with the the updates coming in i24, to me Devices and Traps still feel like they could use more tweaks. Don't get me wrong, Trip Mine and Time Bomb both have their uses and are great in their own way, but they could be improved. As has been said before, on fast moving teams I rarely bother with them as I feel like it's a waste of time. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Time Bomb is so bad that it isn't useful on slow teams.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Be that as it may, I also find the process of using those powers a bit frustrating to use even while soloing. The seem to be a bit... "Kludgy", to me, compared to most other powers within the game.
On the second bit; I'll still drag my Phantasm along even though it may not be all that useful on fast moving teams. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Do it, then. Let's see your analysis that demonstrates that the game is in balance, if not numerically than in relative proportion.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm better, and I still do it for free here. Also, there's no way to perform a "statistical analysis" of the game design's flaws without a level of sampling data of the game's execution you don't possess. And there's no way to do a thorough one in any event because most of the game's design has no statistical component. Adding the word "statistical" to "analysis" doesn't make it automatically better.
I do analysis of powersets. I do statistical analysis of probabilistic events. Technically speaking, the computational reviews I did of scrapper secondaries back in Issue 7 is a stochastic enhanced analysis, not a statistical one. An analysis of the game's mechanics and data would be primarily a systems analysis, not a statistical one. |
Demonstrate conclusively that the game is closely enough balanced that the obvious break points are not relevant enough to be fixed rapidly and I'll call that a win for you.
EDIT: Of course, I know better than to think you'll do so. Not ONE PERSON has been able to look at what I'm saying and disprove it outright, folks are simply saying that they're alright with it being bad. Since I'm the only one who seems to be bothered by a blatant imbalance, I'll take my leave. Enjoy your ****** game, Junior.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Do it, then. Let's see your analysis that demonstrates that the game is in balance, if not numerically than in relative proportion.
Demonstrate conclusively that the game is closely enough balanced that the obvious break points are not relevant enough to be fixed rapidly and I'll call that a win for you. |
I need to ask, have you even bothered to read what people are posting? I have not seen Arcana say the game was balanced. Quite the opposite, they go out of their way to show where some of the bigger issues are. In this very thread they have said ways they think changes should be made.
What it looks like you are confusing is that, when people disagree with the way you want it changed, that they think the game is balanced. That is not the case here. Most of the people here understand that the set bonuses as out of balance, but that a major nerf at this point and time would be a bad thing for this game. Smaller tweaks can bring the game closer to balance and not kill the game like the massive nerf you are talking about.
Dirges
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You haven't yet stated anything that can be disproven, only things that can be disagreed with. "Super Strength outperforms X other set by Y margin under Z circumstances" can be proven or disproven. "Massive upheaval is necessary to improve the game, and the benefits of that would outweigh the downsides" cannot be conclusively proven nor disproven, because it is neither true nor false. It is inherently a statement of opinion. Even today, years after the fact and with all the short- and long-term consequences long since apparent, nobody has been able to conclusively prove nor disprove that ED was a good idea, nor that the benefits outweighed the downsides.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Not ONE PERSON has been able to look at what I'm saying and disprove it outright
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If you ever get around to expressing something concrete, we can talk about proving or disproving it.
Since you apparently refuse to even attempt to convince anyone to share your opinion, and express totally unnecessary vitriol that tends to make readers hostile to you by default, I expect that you will continue to not find much agreement. But hey, if you want to thoroughly undermine your own goals, that is your prerogative.
A -Def debuff is supposed to make it easier for a critter to hit you.
We'll always have Paragon.