The ONE thing you want to know...
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-16 20:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Find people's repeated attempts to demonise Longbow to be largely pointless. They do nothing player heroes haven't been seen doing, and while their interference in the War Zone is irritating, that's from the perspective of a Vanguard agent. Yes, Vanguard themselves seem to be officially checked, but I took that storyline to be no different from the "NYPD vs. the FBI" dynamic from Die Hard, plus the only actual "rivalry" starts taking place only once Vanguard soldiers start carrying out contract killings and breaking all sorts of laws. Yes, Wilhelmina Dietrich is a jerk, but at no point in the preceding arcs does she or Longbow actually act to stop Vanguard in any way, they simply carry out operations in parallel with Vanguard. Where, exactly, have Longbow "sabotaged" Vanguard operations outside of Gaussian's arc which presents Vanguard as, essentially, an organisation gone rogue?|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Speaking of Longbow, they are one of the most egregious examples of poor super group writing. They're an American force invading a sovereign nation? Wave your hands and say "NATO" and now it's okay. They're sabotaging the UN's forces in the RWZ? That's just good old-fashioned rivalry. They're policing Paragon City and pre-emptively attacking and 'arresting' people who aren't doing anything illegal while talking smack about them? That's just good Heroism.
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As far as "policing Paragon City," they're an extension of Freedom Corps. They wear Freedom Corps uniforms and represent the armed force of said organisation. Freedom Corps themselves are an organisation founded by Miss Liberty AND THE STATESMAN as a means of coordinating the activities of licensed super heroes. Anything licensed heroes are licensed to do, Freedom Corps is licensed to do, and policing the streets of Paragon City is explicitly permitted.
Longbow is not "Miss Liberty's private army." In fact, outside of some villain-biassed dialogue, you won't really see this mentioned almost anywhere. Yes, it's her solution to her disagreement with granddaddy States, but Longbow is still only a branch of Freedom Corps and still subject to the same restrictions and authority. And while Miss Liberty is given as the benefactor of Longbow, she is never outwardly stated to be its commander.
As far as "invading a sovereign nation" goes, I think it's high time we stopped doing that. You can't keep arguing for the poor little sovereign nation which carries out constant raids against US soil and has standing incursions in multiple places along US territory. I get that that's there to explain "why don't we just nuke the place," but it's not a very good argument. Any government worth its salt would simply look the other way when such an incursion occurs, because Recluse is sure as hell not going to report those incursions. Once UN investigators land in Grandville and hear his "The heroes. Are. DOOMED!" speech on a constant loop on the monitors, they'll turn around, hop on their boats and proclaim his a rogue nation. I mean, how much did it take to OK a full-scale land invasion of Iraq, and Recluse gets away with essentially declaring war on the US but not actually being at war with the US because he's only focusing on a single city?
You can't have it both ways. Either there's a UN worth a crap or there's not. If there's not, anything goes. If there is, then the crap Recluse has been pulling should have turned him into a pariah. He was THERE when the meteorites hit, gloating and punching the Statesman directly into my face. His forces make no attempt to hide their presence. You can't chide Longbow for being a bad hero group and NOT chide Arachnos for being a bad villain group. And I don't mean "evil" bad. I mean "this makes no sense" bad.
I'm only ever going to accept Longbow suffering consequences for their actions if Arachnos suffers the same, and that's not going to happen unless someone actually takes my "Retaking the Rogue Isles" idea seriously, and I highly doubt it. Until such a time as we have consistent rules of international politics, I refuse to accept them as an argument.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes. I agree completely. With that, I'm going to drop the discussion; not because I don't want to talk about it, but because I dearly want to say entire screenfulls about it and none of it will ultimately be either constructive or to the point of the original thread.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You can't chide Longbow for being a bad hero group and NOT chide Arachnos for being a bad villain group. And I don't mean "evil" bad. I mean "this makes no sense" bad.
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Just - Yes, the actions of Recluse and Co. are the actions of a second-rate comic book mustache-twirler (Ha ha! Now that Atlas Park is in turmoil, I will oust the mayor, take control, and proclaim it to be Recluseville! Muahahahahahah!!!!!)
The reaction of the US government, to make no military response but instead to "Let Longbow handle it" is completely nonsensical. However, in comic book world nonsense is sometimes the only sense there is, and we've been in comic book world for a few years now.
With that - 'nuff said. The point stands that despite whatever association Longbow has or doesn't have with NATO, they have never been demonstrated to be any kind of NATO department or official division of NATO. They don't get off the hook as being "peacekeepers" just because they have some unspecified association with NATO in their backstory.
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NATO aren't private arms dealers, and they aren't "the rest of the world" either, they're an intergovernmental military alliance of North Atlantic nations that don't go around supplying equipment to random PMCs. If Longbow's being officially backed by NATO, that means they're operating under their supervision, no different from Vanguard's relation to the UN.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Longbow is not NATO. NATO is NATO. Longbow is a private mercenary army that may be getting some oversight from some part of NATO. The description claims that they get materials from them but we don't really know how deep the connection is or if there's much of a connection at all. I have a difficult time believing that the rest of the world sees the Rogue Isles as a threat to world security that requires an international military response.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Longbow is nothing but Ms. Liberty's private enforcers, which is why they operate on US soil as well as internationally in the Rogue Isles. They are NOT some international super hero squad fighting for the safety of all people of all nationalities, and their priorities have nothing to do with anything related to the UN or NATO.
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I'm one of the greatest critics of Longbow policies in a fictional, Vanguard dominated world, (mirroring NATO's tendency to bypass the UN whenever it serves their national interests in the real world), but I won't go so far as to say Longbow is Ms. Liberty's private gang. I just don't see it that way. As Issen said, given the events that took place in WWD #3 red-side, would you sit around waiting for a UN resolution while the US coast is being nuked?
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The quibble is whether Longbow = NATO, meaning that the Longbow invasion is a multi-national action sanctioned by some subset of the treaty members. NATO was formed to protect Europe from the Soviet Union during the Cold War. I have to question whether Albania, Croatia, Slovakia, et. al. actually give a rat's **** about the Rogue Isles. Maybe they'd just rubber-stamp the US government policies; I can't really say.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Let me remind you that NATO's mandate isn't maintaining world peace, but rather to enforce the interests of a select group of countries. It's perfectly legitimate for NATO to be concerned with a terrorist organization with nuclear weapons operating just off the coast of Rhode Island and take matters into their own hands, even without UN backing.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I'm one of the greatest critics of Longbow policies in a fictional, Vanguard dominated world, (mirroring NATO's tendency to bypass the UN whenever it serves their national interests in the real world), but I won't go so far as to say Longbow is Ms. Liberty's private gang. I just don't see it that way. As Issen said, given the events that took place in WWD #3 red-side, would you sit around waiting for a UN resolution while the US coast is being nuked?
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In any case, if I was the US government and I was concerned about nuclear attack I'd exercise a military option, not put the decision of how to handle it into the hands of a paramilitary group.
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I believe it is. You don't. We're both free to interpret the game as we see fit.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The quibble is whether Longbow = NATO, meaning that the Longbow invasion is a multi-national action sanctioned by some subset of the treaty members.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
NATO was formed to protect Europe from the Soviet Union during the Cold War. I have to question whether Albania, Croatia, Slovakia, et. al. actually give a rat's **** about the Rogue Isles. Maybe they'd just rubber-stamp the US government policies; I can't really say.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
You're suggesting that nuclear missle activity in Warburg somehow justifies invasion of Nerva Archipelago while Warburg itself goes pretty much unmolested aside from the diplomatic measures that resulted in the death of Miss Liberty?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I'm not sure I understand what your point is.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
If nuclear war was Longbow's concern, they'd be focusing on Marshall Blitz instead of leaving him free to do as he pleases (and incidentally assisting random private individuals to launch and control Warburg orbital weapons platforms).
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
In any case, if I was the US government and I was concerned about nuclear attack I'd exercise a military option, not put the decision of how to handle it into the hands of a paramilitary group.
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Longbow is the government's solution to the meta-human infestation just a few miles off the coast of Rhode Island - pack a bunch of unruly teenage patriots with nullifier rifles and send them hunting.
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This is why "Arachnos" should not have been made into a rogue state with a known base of operations acting under nebulous "international law." I remember an old quote from Rick Dakan saying something along the lines of "Yes, we can make two cities, one for heroes and one for villains. But that would be silly!" And it is. What Arachnos should have been is essentially what the Council is - a paramilitary organisation working in secret from within an otherwise legitimate state such that it's impossible to mass-target their agents without hurting innocent people. Having obvious villains out in the open is a VERY hard story to tell that requires a lot of subtlety in writing and a VERY smart villain. Recluse is not a smart villain. He's a bully that has no place posing as a legitimate ruler. He's Cobra Commander in all but name, but at least Cobra Commander had the good sense to hide his bases.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The reaction of the US government, to make no military response but instead to "Let Longbow handle it" is completely nonsensical. However, in comic book world nonsense is sometimes the only sense there is, and we've been in comic book world for a few years now.
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"International law" should not be a hand-wave plot device. If we're going to go so major as to involve world politics, then we need to involve them in such a way as to make sense, or at the very least explain why they make no sense. Maybe Recluse has paid off someone on the UN council who's stonewalling proceedings to act against him. Maybe he has a spy on the council, maybe he has some way to hold the world at ransom. Once upon a time, "We're still recovering from the Rikti War and we don't want more fighting" might have been sufficient to explain Arachnos existing, but even then it wasn't enough to explain their blatant invasions of US soil, and it's been what? Ten years since that war? I'm thinking the world has sort of recovered from it. And really, "It's crisis! We can't deal with that!" only works if you don't keep sliding the crisis constantly.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
With that - 'nuff said. The point stands that despite whatever association Longbow has or doesn't have with NATO, they have never been demonstrated to be any kind of NATO department or official division of NATO. They don't get off the hook as being "peacekeepers" just because they have some unspecified association with NATO in their backstory.
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A lot of the problems you're pointing out that have to do with Longbow stem from the fact that Longbow was never supposed to be morally questioned, at least not at inception. They were simply a more generic standby for "heroes in general." Instead of making teams of costumed crime-fighters, you had Longbow show up. Their fiction is just an attempt to give them presence, but Longbow were simply intended to be "the heroes." And because they're so annoying to fight and so damn omni-present in late-game CoV, everybody hates them. I hate them. They look goofy and hog the limelight. But why they're flawed isn't politics or law or morality. Why they're flawed is they were conceived to represent a concept that really was out of place and far too generic and meta-game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have now decided to ignore the well as something sentient, I much prefer the unleashing potential thing.
My question is this: How did Sister Psyche get killed with a single arrow? She's a ******* AV.
Why is Lord Recluse's cake such a lie?
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For now that's a good idea, but I'd wait until we see what becomes of Ascendants. If that plotline comes true, then the Well as a sentient malevolent being would actually be a smart plot point.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I have now decided to ignore the well as something sentient, I much prefer the unleashing potential thing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In Super Robot Wars Alpha 3 (Bear with me here, folks), one of the more important concepts is the "Akashic Record", which is implied to be some sort of metaphysical object that outlines the fate of the entire galaxy. To start with, it is thought of that the Record is malevolent, in that it wants to end all life in the galaxy to replace it with life it considers "better", and that it has already written "Rocks fall, everyone dies" at the end.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
For now that's a good idea, but I'd wait until we see what becomes of Ascendants. If that plotline comes true, then the Well as a sentient malevolent being would actually be a smart plot point.
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However, later plot points suggest that the Record is not a monolithic entity, but rather a sort of combined will, and it can't make up it's mind about what to do. The infinite power sources the Good Guys™ (and occasionally the Bad Guys™) have access to are facets of the Record created to communicate with the galaxy. The Getter Rays (from Getter Robo) want to help humanity/the galaxy survive, wheras the Power of Ide (from Ideon) wants to see everything burn, until it's convinced otherwise.
The Record itself never speaks and it's never seen, although at least one character claims to speak for it.
As someone who enjoyed the above, I'm not against the idea of the Well in CoX in principle, but the implementation could be cleared up a little.
Ah, I see. So you're essentially describing Alien X of Ben 10: Alien Force fame. It's an incredibly powerful entity that nevertheless fails to act because the consciousnesses that make it up cannot reach consensus. That's not a bad idea for the well, but I still think it fails to address what is the MAJOR problem with the Well in City of Heroes - it's represented as either the source of all power, or otherwise a source of power greater than that of ANY other source. So long as the greatest power in existence comes from the Well, we have a problem. Ascendants solve this by shifting the source of great power from "that one plot point" to the much more nebulous "inner self" of characters, which is very easy to explain as being a much wider variety of concepts.
I do agree, however, that the Well of the Furies being comprised of a miasma of conflicting intelligences is a good way to give the concept some much-needed depth. Because right now, the Well is not any more complex than the Talons of Vengeance - it's just an amoral entity that seeks to control others with promises of tainted power. It suffers from the central problem of transparently evil villains, in that that's not a personality. It's a character archetype, but it's presumed that there would be an actual character in there to make it interesting. Instead, the Well of the Furies is just the hollow shell of an idea given no substance.
This can be fixed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The same way Wade was allowed to run right past you and Monty saying "Nyah nyah, you can't get me!" in SSA1.2.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I have now decided to ignore the well as something sentient, I much prefer the unleashing potential thing.
My question is this: How did Sister Psyche get killed with a single arrow? She's a ******* AV. |
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The Well storyline could not be saved with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and Ascension as described is not something player-characters will ever get. It is essentially "game over, you win, roll up a new character".
| For now that's a good idea, but I'd wait until we see what becomes of Ascendants. If that plotline comes true, then the Well as a sentient malevolent being would actually be a smart plot point. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I'm reading this as an implied statement that I don't know anything about NATO, so go get educated. I'm going to assume that isn't completely what you intended and move on, other than to point out the numerous places in the website where they mention "Peace", "U.N." and "collective will".|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
NATO - go read up if you want.
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On the other hand, you DID get me envisioning this topic in terms of US vs. the Taliban/War on Terror, so that's something. In that respect, NATO at least claims that they are in Afghanistan by invitation of the Afghani people and with their support. No such claim could be made for a NATO presence in The Rogue Isles.
As for NATO not being "an arms dealer", I can't help what it says on the official backgrounder for Longbow.
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| Try entering Warburg from blueside, you'll notice you're standing on a Longbow base. |
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| Stop demonizing Longbow. |
Prior to the silliness of the Galaxy City/Atlas Park invasion, the only thing that came close to justifying the Longbow invasion is Siren's Call. I happen to think that's also a pretty silly situation; but let's run with it. What's the real situation in Siren's Call? Is Recluse retaliating for the invasion of the Isles? Is there something there he wants? Is this a beachhead for a full-scale invasion of Paragon City?
Who knows? It's just a place where heroes and villains fight each other. While we see what amounts to armies on both sides fighting over inscrutable targets, the official description is that villains are "trickling in"; basically a security breach. Doesn't sound like something to go to war over.
In the six or so years prior to SSA #1, there has never been any credible reason given for the invasion of The Rogue Isles other than "Ms. Liberty wants to send her Uncle a message." THAT is why people demonize Longbow. They're not NATO. There's no evidence that they they represent the US government or have any oversight by the government. In fact, the word "militia" is used repeatedly to describe them, not just because the imaginary Arachnos agent was being colorful but because it's a word that gives a patina of officialdom to the enterprise. They are a volunteer "militia" in the same way that our heroes are "deputies". Why or how they are getting NATO support is a hand-wave that's never explained.
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| Longbow is the government's solution to the meta-human infestation just a few miles off the coast of Rhode Island - pack a bunch of unruly teenage patriots with nullifier rifles and send them hunting. |
I think I've found something I dislike almost as much as the Well: Talons of Vengeance. They were cool the first three times they showed up, but for supposed heralds of the end times they sure do show up an awful lot.
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Bam. I really wish they didn't show up in Dark Astoria.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
I think I've found something I dislike almost as much as the Well: Talons of Vengeance. They were cool the first three times they showed up, but for supposed heralds of the end times they sure do show up an awful lot.
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Well, if you think about it, the fact they were successfully summoned into the world means they aren't going away anytime soon, unless you could Mass Banish them back to whereever they came from.
As far as a villain group goes, I consider them no more boring than Crey or the Devouring Earth. I actually find them interesting in that they have the insidious ability to turn others to their side, almost like indoctrination from Mass Effect (if we're going to draw from outside sources)
As for the Well being a source of power, that has never bothered me. At least no more than any other supernatural force in CoX has. Comparing it to the Akashic Record is an interesting idea too, but I just think of it as a mass of...something (Energy? Intelligence?) that has only enough will to respond to things instinctually, most of the time.
It gains sapience by possessing those with connections to it (Recluse/Statesman/Hero1), but otherwise it's actions seem solely based on reactions to others. People with connections want power, it reacts by granting them power. It senses a threat to itself (the storm), and selects someone with the greatest will (Praetorian Cole) to defend it.
As far as saying that it's malicious. I'd say it's less malicious and just more alien to us. We can't comprehend why it would act in this manner so we say "What it's doing is done with malicious intent." However, since it clearly operates outside of our realm of understanding, it likely has no understanding of the concept of good or evil.
Hm, another question:
Are the Shivans part of Battalion, or just another species enslaved to it?
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It wasn't meant as an insult, I just took it from your earlier post that you weren't overly familiar with NATO, particularly when you listed 2 former Warsaw Pact nations that weren't even part of NATO in 2005 (when Longbow first invaded). You seemed genuinely interested in learning about it, if only for the purposes of this discussion. If I was wrong, I apologize. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I'm reading this as an implied statement that I don't know anything about NATO, so go get educated. I'm going to assume that isn't completely what you intended and move on, other than to point out the numerous places in the website where they mention "Peace", "U.N." and "collective will".
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
On the other hand, you DID get me envisioning this topic in terms of US vs. the Taliban/War on Terror, so that's something. In that respect, NATO at least claims that they are in Afghanistan by invitation of the Afghani people and with their support. No such claim could be made for a NATO presence in The Rogue Isles.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
As for NATO not being "an arms dealer", I can't help what it says on the official backgrounder for Longbow.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The "base" is a ship off the coast. If Warburg is so important, where is their Agincourt? Bloody Bay has a bigger Longbow presence than Warburg has. Never mind that they are facilitating the private acquisition of missile launch codes.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I'm unconvinced that I should do that. *shrug* You referenced SSA #1 a couple of times. What about the previous 6-7 years? We just ignore that because someone finally wrote a story where Blitz actually made a threat against someone? Again, if Blitz is a rebel, why is Warburg even an excuse to invade the rest of the Isles?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Prior to the silliness of the Galaxy City/Atlas Park invasion, the only thing that came close to justifying the Longbow invasion is Siren's Call. I happen to think that's also a pretty silly situation; but let's run with it. What's the real situation in Siren's Call? Is Recluse retaliating for the invasion of the Isles? Is there something there he wants? Is this a beachhead for a full-scale invasion of Paragon City?
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As to Uncle Stefan's objectives, who cares? In his case, it's quite alright to punch first and ask questions later.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Who knows? It's just a place where heroes and villains fight each other. While we see what amounts to armies on both sides fighting over inscrutable targets, the official description is that villains are "trickling in"; basically a security breach. Doesn't sound like something to go to war over. In the six or so years prior to SSA #1, there has never been any credible reason given for the invasion of The Rogue Isles other than "Ms. Liberty wants to send her Uncle a message."
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
THAT is why people demonize Longbow. They're not NATO. There's no evidence that they they represent the US government or have any oversight by the government. In fact, the word "militia" is used repeatedly to describe them, not just because the imaginary Arachnos agent was being colorful but because it's a word that gives a patina of officialdom to the enterprise. They are a volunteer "militia" in the same way that our heroes are "deputies". Why or how they are getting NATO support is a hand-wave that's never explained.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
So you agree that the whole thing is basically ridiculous?
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P.S. Slick, never in any part of my previous posts did I willingly flame you. I'm quite fond of your ideas, and approached this as a healthy discussion rather than a competition (as I did in the past concerning WWD and Praetoria). Again, if I've given you a different impression, I apologize.
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The problem is people keep denying it's supernatural. The Well reduces all origins in City to "magic" but people keep trying to handwave that.
| As for the Well being a source of power, that has never bothered me. At least no more than any other supernatural force in CoX has. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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That has always been the purpose of both science and religion, to offer a unifying theory of everything. But I agree with you, I'd much rather have two (or five) incompatible origins than just one big ugly Well. Who knows, maybe some supernatural event will take place outside of the Well's scope, something it can't possibly explain...
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Originally Posted by Venture
The problem is people keep denying it's supernatural. The Well reduces all origins in City to "magic" but people keep trying to handwave that.
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Or maybe we realize the Well was all a Nemesis plot and Incarnate powers are just us being awesome.
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No harm, no foul. That's text message communication for you. You've actually given me some food for thought about Longbow that may have me reconsidering some of my opinions about them. |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
P.S. Slick, never in any part of my previous posts did I willingly flame you. I'm quite fond of your ideas, and approached this as a healthy discussion rather than a competition (as I did in the past concerning WWD and Praetoria). Again, if I've given you a different impression, I apologize. |
Ultimately, what I want is to be shown what their official status is and not just be told "They're the good guys. What more do you need to know?" Especially since much of the time they aren't portrayed as being all that good.
Then again, this is comic book world, where the FBSA apparently has ninja that will eliminate me where I stand if the government thinks I've gone rogue, so why should I expect more than that from Longbow? :-p
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NEVER... SPEAK... OF... THAT... AGAIN.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Then again, this is comic book world, where the FBSA apparently has ninja that will eliminate me where I stand if the government thinks I've gone rogue, so why should I expect more than that from Longbow? :-p
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Michelle
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THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
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Why hasn't Nemesis used those 'horses' that he has in his army yet?
(yes I know the gameplay reason... 
).
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Longbow is nothing but Ms. Liberty's private enforcers, which is why they operate on US soil as well as internationally in the Rogue Isles. They are NOT some international super hero squad fighting for the safety of all people of all nationalities, and their priorities have nothing to do with anything related to the UN or NATO.
I sometimes wonder if Longbow is secretly a project concocted by Recluse himself, to give the Isles an opponent to fight instead of challenging the status quo. It could make for an interesting story if Ms. Lib was faced with the reality that she had been manipulated into forming Longbow and that her uncle had pulled the strings all down the line to make it happen.
Speaking of Longbow, they are one of the most egregious examples of poor super group writing. They're an American force invading a sovereign nation? Wave your hands and say "NATO" and now it's okay. They're sabotaging the UN's forces in the RWZ? That's just good old-fashioned rivalry. They're policing Paragon City and pre-emptively attacking and 'arresting' people who aren't doing anything illegal while talking smack about them? That's just good Heroism.
Meanwhile, we're supposed to be cheering for them as the good guys.
Mad Magazine once did a parody of "A Clockwork Orange". In the film, the protagonist Alex is "rehabilitated" and once back in society he encounters his old Droogs (gang buddies) who are now police officers. They beat the tar out of him and leave him in the dirt. The Mad version of this scene involves Alex talking to his former underlings and the one fellow telling him "Yeah, they tried to rehabilitate us, but they couldn't so they made us policemen instead." After which they beat the stuffing out of him.
That's how I see Longbow most of the time. The sole exception is the Sefu Tendaji story, but the ironic thing is that Tendaji's story works BECAUSE he's a sharp contrast to every other Longbow operative that we run across blueside.