so, what's left of Jack in the game is ...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-05 11:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Do you think Hitler got a raw deal too?|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history * the character has the noble goal of wanting to make a paradise for everyone * is forced to compromise because reality prevents a true paradise * has his work ruined by the power hungry and traitorous people who work for him * faces a rebellion of those for whom he worked so hard to create a paradise, and who claim to be wanting to make things better for everyone, but are really more ruthless, power hungry, and vicious than he is * his downfall comes from trying to spread his vision to a new world and is rejected |
Cole's definition of paradise is a world in which everyone does as he says without ever questioning him. He wants to rule a society that literally sees him as their god. He didn't go after Primal Earth because he wanted to "spread his vision" he went after it because he was afraid of what would happen if his subjects saw what freedom looked like and decided they wanted that too. He was right on that part of it.
Sorry dude, but "benevolent but misunderstood" rulers don't do things like order psychotic psychics to brainwash the population, and mass market a beverage designed to make that brainwashing easier. And that's just one example. Play through Praetoria again, and run some Incarnate trials. After you do, come back and tell us if you still believe Cole was doing all that because he loved the people and wanted them to be safe.
It is true that no greater evil is ever committed than one committed in the belief that it is righteous.
Tyrant is every bit the modern definition of the word, and frankly, the fact that you are painting him as a misunderstood good guy here, in apparent seriousness, makes me somewhat question whether you are on medication and forgot to take it today.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
And for the record, I don't really have anything against Jack Emmert. I am not, in any way, drawing a comparison between Tyrant and Jack.
Jack has a talent for initial game design, he just really sucks at running an MMO after it goes live. This game would not exist if not for him, and ironically, if he had remained in charge it would likely not exist now.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
And to add to this: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
I should know - I placed every brick. Now you can all go to Hell faster!
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Oof! Right in the Godwins!
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Do you think Hitler got a raw deal too?
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Man, did I call it or what.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Oof! Right in the Godwins!
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Well, it did take over fifty replies, but yes, you sure called it.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Man, did I call it or what.
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On an unrelated note, I'm predicting that I will see the sun tomorrow.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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See, I live in Seattle, where I could actually denounce that prediction.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well, it did take over fifty replies, but yes, you sure called it.
On an unrelated note, I'm predicting that I will see the sun tomorrow. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Seattle has more sunny days per year than Pittsburgh. 74, as opposed to 59.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
See, I live in Seattle, where I could actually denounce that prediction.
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I'm actually taking a chance here.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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How do we know that his name wasn't Sic Semper Tyrannis, and that "Tyrant" just wasn't a name given to him by his high school coach?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's also important to remember that he was called "Tyrant" right from the start, back when he was a standard moustache twirling archvillain, rather than the GR version - he wasn't named for any subtle double meaning.
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it is beautiful here in seattle today and should be so for another 30 days
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
See, I live in Seattle, where I could actually denounce that prediction.
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...Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no
basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony....you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because
some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me
away!
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Come see the violence inherent in the system!|
Originally Posted by CoX_Zombie
...Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no
basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony....you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! |
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Oof! Right in the Godwins!
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Man, did I call it or what.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well, it did take over fifty replies, but yes, you sure called it.
On an unrelated note, I'm predicting that I will see the sun tomorrow. |
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Ah, i see.
"Do not know history" means anyone who feels more than two millenia of usage of the word tyrant should not be abandoned for the more neutral, but not necessarily good, connotation it had for a few centuries beforehand. So we should ignore the last 2500 or so years of usage of the term in favor of the long archaic early definition? In some ways that seems almost opposite of learning from history. (Godwin time!) "In the early days of their formation the National Socialists were focused on rejecting the unfairly punitive economic sanctions forced upon Germany at the end of World War I and rebuilding the German economy. Why does everyone always harp on the stuff that happened over the following decade instead?!" When "really just means" is a pretext for ignoring over two millenia of widespread usage i suspect you're being a tad disingenuous. |
Quoting another one of JB's most insightful points ever that relates just as well to this topic:
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Well, it was presented form a pro-loyalist position.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
all the misstatements, fallacies, assumptions and distortions that were used in the OP.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except on Seafair Weekend. >.>|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
it is beautiful here in seattle today and should be so for another 30 days
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But yeah, we're currently at the start of our 30 days of Summer.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
It's okay.
Jack let the other game slide down the chute, too.
*Nowhere to run!*
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How? It was already at the bottom when it launched |
Originally Posted by MrPlayskool
Jack let the other game slide down the chute, too.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Also, from the wiki on Godwin's law:
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I cite that a Nazi comparison in this case was appropriate. | The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate |
I actually had to look that up, as I was not familiar with that particular "law".
Perhaps the way I made the reference was questionable, but he was the first generally agreed upon terrible person in a position of power I thought of that wouldn't have been lost on a lot of people. I could have mentioned Raj Ahten, but since he was a character in a book, very few people would have gotten the reference. (Incidentally, Raj Ahten, from David Farland's The Runelords would have been a better reference, as he and Tryrant are VERY similar. But the odds of anyone but me understanding that were slim)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Matt, Melissa and maybe one other dev are all on-record taking the position that killing Statesman was a sign that Paragon Studios had "grown up" and left its old Cryptic Studios legacy behind.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
These are serious people who care about the game, they spend countless hours and want to be proud of it - and at an absolute minimum, it's what puts food on the family tables. I can't see them being that petty. If they wanted to be petty, they could always write him into tip missions to mock him.
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It's difficult to read that as anything but "We're killing Statesman because he's Jack's old character and we don't want to be associated with him any more." Especially after Sister Psyche got axed along with him.
Aren't semantics just so interesting?
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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As well you shouldn't- one of them is a character in an imaginary world, the other one caused endless pain and suffering to hundreds of thousands of people with his bizarre idea of "fun".|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And for the record, I don't really have anything against Jack Emmert. I am not, in any way, drawing a comparison between Tyrant and Jack.
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=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Is this true?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Seattle has more sunny days per year than Pittsburgh. 74, as opposed to 59.
I'm actually taking a chance here. |
... in irons?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound