Ask Anything: Ranged Blast and Blaster Manipulation Changes
By
Abysmalyxia,
Posted on: 2012-06-21 13:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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On the offchance you check this again, I think the surprise comes from a misunderstanding of what the annoyance is about. Most people probably have Aim and Build Up, and for good reason. The issue is not in using those, but in needing to use those before an attack. Before this change, it was up to you what powers you used after Aim or Build up, and all those powers worked "the same" whether Aim or Build Up was active (albeit with boosted damage). Not so now. The to hit requirement feels much more prescriptive of a certain playstyle.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I admit, this puzzles me a bit. We are balancing blasters around the assumption that they take both build up and aim if available within their powersets, and that they stagger their use of the two to maximize their outgoing damage by not wasting any of their Buff time from these two buffs while animating other buffs instead of damage. Obviously there will still be times when you use BU and Aim together for a really big alpha nuke from stealth or something, but if you're doing that, chances are Sniping wouldn't have been that important to you during that pull anyway.
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I've tried to state this in the Blaster forum's thread on "i24 Blaster Changes" as well. The to hit requirement just isn't as accessible as some things you have done with Assassin's Strike and powersets with combos, and I would like to see that here as well.
And on the chance you do read this, thanks for doing this thread. It's good to hear your thoughts and approach on things.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I am concerned that your no-longer-red name means we'll never find out. :P|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I started writing up a post, but I want to make sure I get all the numbers right and it's going to take me more time than I have tonight. That said, I'm headed home now - this thread has been a really fun community experiment, so maybe we'll pick it back up or do something like it again in the future. Thanks to those who asked questions I could answer, and may you all have a wonderful weekend in Paragon City or a truly treacherous weekend in the Rogue Isles, depending on your preference.
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Edit: Huh, red again now. It was just showing as normal VIP color.
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Also the Lightning Costume Change Animation would work as well.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Personally, I think Lightning Rod's animation looks awesome, and would make this power feel more like "powering up" than the current "Hand Clap, but with lightning". I'll talk to the art team and see how they feel about this change - we tend to be hesitant about changing the look of existing powers, but since the power is changing, it may make enough sense here to be worth doing.
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I don't think this matches what people will expect from 'Energise'. All the effects are there but in proportions that deliver something different enough that it might warrant a new name.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
It's not an exact copy of Energize, but it does have the 120 second recharge, down from Conserve Power's 600. It provides 60 seconds of scale 1 Endurance Discount, 60 seconds of scale 2.5 Regeneration (50% enhanceable), and a scale 1 heal on activation. All numbers subject to change pending internal and beta testing, but I figured I'd throw some real numbers out there so you have as much information as possible.
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I would like to add to the chorus that this thread is pure win and this type of community communication is awesome.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I don't like the "far distant" part, but c'mon, who would? I love that you folks are looking at something, anything, to diversify Force Field. It does one thing very well... but that's about it. Yes, there are some somewhat unique control and positioning tools, but when compared to a set like Cold Domination, FF does far less.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
We love absorb and want to use it in many places. Force Field makes sense as a contender for a support set that would benefit from it, so it's possible you would see something like this in the far-distant future.
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Also, thanks for the prompt reply to my PM... I am looking forward to what you find out in that matter.
Any chance of rounding the Defiance percentage up to the nearest whole number (why the mixed numbers anyhow?) and tacking on an extra second (plus any rounding to the next whole) to their duration?
With the "Forms" mechanic popping up here and there can we convert Blaster Defiance to do something similar? Offensive, Neutral, Defensive... (personally, I would like to see all ATs get some version of this that ties into (and diversifies) their current inherent abilities)
When are Blasters going to get a substantial increase to the number of secondaries they have; through ports or otherwise? (they seem a bit light currently)
Can Electric Blast have the 'chance to chain' added to all of their attacks (damage plus -end/-recovery)?
Can we use existing animations to expand on points where blasts can originate from?
Adding a 'chance to' effect based on starting target range from character (Blasters Only) whether its damage, effect or a combo of both? (for a more 'point blank effect')
Expanding the Kheld inherent mechanic into [i]all[/i ATs; doing so at reduced value for other ATs while possibly adding something extra in for Khelds? (Impacting team diversity)
Doing something with the Ranged class ATO procs besides more 'chance to' damage? (I think many of the ranged classes got outdone, comparably, when it came to determining those effects)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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With Blasters, this is true enough. With most of my other characters with a Snipe (and I do take my snipes, when available. Heck, on my tanks, their EPP single target blasts get 2 Range enhancements.) I'm frequently more interested in taking powers that DO something themselves over one that only adds to another power, and Build Up is ignored until my lvl 49 pick.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
I admit, this puzzles me a bit. We are balancing blasters around the assumption that they take both build up and aim if available within their powersets, and that they stagger their use of the two to maximize their outgoing damage by not wasting any of their Buff time from these two buffs while animating other buffs instead of damage. Obviously there will still be times when you use BU and Aim together for a really big alpha nuke from stealth or something, but if you're doing that, chances are Sniping wouldn't have been that important to you during that pull anyway.
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Dear Hawk,|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
We actually explicitly design almost all Incarnate Trial AoE abilities to do somewhere between 50% and 10% of their normal damage to pet-class targets. We also explicitly design patch-targeted powers never to target pet-class targets, since for some reason they seem to be notoriously bad at dodging...
 If you ever notice a pet taking as much damage from an AoE mechanic as you are within an Incarnate Trial, it's probably a bug. |
Would it be possible to include an AI tweak to how Mastermind henchmen react to damage patches in regular content, so they don't take off running in all directions and cease responding to the Mastermind?
Right now, if a henchmen is hit with, say, Caltrols, this henchman will panic and flee upwards of 100 yards in a random direction, aggroing many spawns along the way. The damage patches would do to henchmen pale in comparison to the damage they do to themselves by running away and the damage they do to ME when they do this. I always have the option of commanding my henchmen to move out of the patch if I feel the damage is too much, but I don't have the option to prevent them from doing so.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This strikes me as a pretty big assumtion. The animation time of both Aim and Build Up is 0.67s or thereabout, which is not a lot of wasted potential when you consider taking down a large threat FAST is currently a Blaster's most potent form of self-defence. Staggering them increases damage over time by spreading the buff, yes, but "time" is something that Blaster design does not offer a lot of.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
We are balancing blasters around the assumption that they take both build up and aim if available within their powersets, and that they stagger their use of the two to maximize their outgoing damage by not wasting any of their Buff time from these two buffs while animating other buffs instead of damage.
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To me, it's a much safer assumption that people use BOTH at the same time so they can two-shot troublesome lieutenants.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This would be good for some patches, like the Caltrops you mentioned. OTOH, there are patches I want them to keep running out of. It is likely hard to give them the judgement to know which ones are just annoying and which ones will be deadly if they stay in.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Would it be possible to include an AI tweak to how Mastermind henchmen react to damage patches in regular content, so they don't take off running in all directions and cease responding to the Mastermind?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The animation is longer than that, 1.32 arcanatime. Staggering them is not just better from a DoT perspective. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This strikes me as a pretty big assumtion. The animation time of both Aim and Build Up is 0.67s or thereabout, which is not a lot of wasted potential when you consider taking down a large threat FAST is currently a Blaster's most potent form of self-defence. Staggering them increases damage over time by spreading the buff, yes, but "time" is something that Blaster design does not offer a lot of.
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Using both is often overkill, using neither is more dangerous. Therefore your choices are use both to ensure a fairly easy victory on spawn A, but then have neither for spawns b and c (maybe c, depends how quick you can move). Stagger them, so you have one for each spawn A and B, and none for spawn C.
I do better with inspires and safety that third way and I'd rather they design around that. We can encourage people to stagger them normally, but understand that maybe for some situations using both is wise. People can always play how they want, of course.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I disagree. A Blaster's pretty much sole tool for survival is to kill the enemies before the enemies kill him. Sure, against a single lieutenant you may be able to hold him and deal with him, but what about against two? I've run entire Malta missions where spawns consisted of two lieutenants and a minion. Two Spec Ops are NOT a good idea, especially when not all set combos have access to even one decent control power.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Using both is often overkill, using neither is more dangerous. Therefore your choices are use both to ensure a fairly easy victory on spawn A, but then have neither for spawns b and c (maybe c, depends how quick you can move). Stagger them, so you have one for each spawn A and B, and none for spawn C.
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When slotted with green SOs, Build Up's recharge drops down to around 40-something seconds, which is just shy of what it takes me to deal with most spawns, get my bearing, explore the map and move on to the next one. It's hardly a fast pace of progress, granted, but it's hardly unique to how I play Blasters. Even with inherent Stamina, my other characters don't move much faster than that because I'm not shooting for a speed run.
Moreover, JUST aim really doesn't do much. Sure, it'll mean a faster snipe, but the damage bonus is insufficient to deal with a large threat before it deals with it. I'm talking about enemies like Rikti Mentalists or Malta Spec Ops or Rularuu Watchers and the like. Being able to take one of those guys out in two, at most three hits means a lot more than just a quick snipe, is what I'm saying.
And in any even, isn't making a powerset change specifically aimed at a subset of how people play kind of narrow? I get that the same can be said about how the Stalker changes were aimed towards the playstyle of scrapping Stalkers, but at least in THAT case it was easy enough to demonstrate that the Hide mechanic is significantly broken at the core engine level. I can't agree that it's as easy to demonstrate that stacking Aim and Build Up is a broken and bad way to play, especially considering it's the one and only way I've been able to get a Blaster to 50 without tearing my hair out. After all, the longer you drag a battle out by lacking damage to end it quickly, the more likely you are to get cheap-shot killed, because the difference between victory and defeat for a Blaster really does come down to a single enemy attack hitting or missing, a lot of the time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't know about this idea. There are times where you want your single target attacks to stay single target. Say you're a lowbie electric blaster on a Death from Below badge run, for the cadaver counter badge you'd have to just not attack at all for the fight for fear of a stray chain killing a minion. Or on a KIR you better hope anti-matter doesn't fly to close to the enemy you're blasting. Granted those are both fairly minor, but they could be an annoyance.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Can Electric Blast have the 'chance to chain' added to all of their attacks (damage plus -end/-recovery)?
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Now if there was a way to have a choice for when it has a chance to chain, then I'd be all for it, because I can think of a lot of situations where it would be very useful.
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Hm, forgot about those type of contingencies (which I shouldn't have because I've recently made similar mental notes about that and Disintegration Spread for my Beamer).|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
I don't know about this idea. There are times where you want your single target attacks to stay single target. Say you're a lowbie electric blaster on a Death from Below badge run, for the cadaver counter badge you'd have to just not attack at all for the fight for fear of a stray chain killing a minion. Or on a KIR you better hope anti-matter doesn't fly to close to the enemy you're blasting. Granted those are both fairly minor, but they could be an annoyance.
Now if there was a way to have a choice for when it has a chance to chain, then I'd be all for it, because I can think of a lot of situations where it would be very useful. |
...perhaps have it apply only to the AoEs and the pet then?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Umm.... no, that's not why it was done. The damage boost was removed from domination when the dominator AT got a WHOLE SALE DAMAGE SCALE BUFF. It wasn't to keep domination from being OP, it was to:|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
don't make snipes instant under domination. A lot of work was put in to make domination not be so uber by not making it affect damage.
making snipes instant under domination will undo that work and make permadom that much better once again. |
a) Reduce the disparity between permadom and SO builds
b) Make the secondaries that had Aim or BU not have those be useless powers with domination taking up most of the damage buff cap room.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Well, you have to consider that the change will work for both styles, it is just better for one style. Should they have designed it so it works for people who prefer not to take Aim and Build Up at all? There are those who would say yes and I hope they at least considered those people. At some point you have to make a decision and every decision will leave some people with the less than optimal situation.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And in any even, isn't making a powerset change specifically aimed at a subset of how people play kind of narrow?
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The choice we as players have to make is how to deal with it. The nice thing about the changes so far is that they are unobtrusive. We can mostly ignore them and be fine (even /Dark could still choose to use their power in melee if they want). Or we can adjust to take advantage in part or maybe adjust more to take advantage in full.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
In case Arbiter Hawk comes back in I have a concern to be raised...
Concerns about LRM, specifically. There's the usual shpeal about comparing it to Judgement powers, which are superior in DPA, recharge, and uninterruptability. But my main concern is, because it is a snipe, it does not fire if its target is killed before the charge time is complete. This is a problem when my "anchor" is killed while charging up, yet there are still a ton of baddies around him able to take the damage.
My question, is there a way to modify the power to make it more viable during combat? I understand that it is a highly damaging ancillary power where the trade-off is a less protective ancillary resistance power, but the difficulty in coordinating a strike with your team (or relying on luck to make sure your anchor doesn't die first) makes the power more harmful than helpful.
In the past I've suggested a few ways to help the power out.
- Allow the projectile to fire even if its target is dead.
- Instead of targeting an enemy, target a location.
- Increase the damage done to its target, similar to Thunder Strike. (This would also make it useful during boss fights. It just seems appropriate for rocket launchers to be effective against bosses.)
Though, I totally wouldn't mind if you guys added a Rocket Launcher and/or Minigun themed Judgement instead.
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I like the TAoE option. |
Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
In case Arbiter Hawk comes back in I have a concern to be raised...
Concerns about LRM, specifically. There's the usual shpeal about comparing it to Judgement powers, which are superior in DPA, recharge, and uninterruptability. But my main concern is, because it is a snipe, it does not fire if its target is killed before the charge time is complete. This is a problem when my "anchor" is killed while charging up, yet there are still a ton of baddies around him able to take the damage. My question, is there a way to modify the power to make it more viable during combat? I understand that it is a highly damaging ancillary power where the trade-off is a less protective ancillary resistance power, but the difficulty in coordinating a strike with your team (or relying on luck to make sure your anchor doesn't die first) makes the power more harmful than helpful. In the past I've suggested a few ways to help the power out. - Allow the projectile to fire even if its target is dead. - Instead of targeting an enemy, target a location. - Increase the damage done to its target, similar to Thunder Strike. (This would also make it useful during boss fights. It just seems appropriate for rocket launchers to be effective against bosses.) Though, I totally wouldn't mind if you guys added a Rocket Launcher and/or Minigun themed Judgement instead. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Or they could modify it to use the "dead target = Okay" tech they found (which if I'm not mistaken, I'm making a horribly inaccurate name for") to "fix" the dead-cast problem Twilight Grasp had.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I like the TAoE option.
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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A chance to chain added to ALL Electric Blast attacks would probably be a little overpowered. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Can Electric Blast have the 'chance to chain' added to all of their attacks (damage plus -end/-recovery)?
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I was going to keep this to myself, since I PMed Hawk with it directly already (no, he hasn't responded), but I had an idea to add a chain effect to Electric Blast that wouldn't alter too much.
In light of the mechanic introduced with Time Manipulation and used to buff Gravity, my idea was to use that mechanic in Electric Blast.
If you fire your tier 1 or tier 2 blast at an enemy who is affected by Tesla Cage (most Electric Blasters take Tesla Cage, right?), it will have a chance to chain to up to 5 nearby targets.
Note that I said "affected by" not "held by", so it will still work on GMs and AVs who are difficult to hold.
I have no idea how difficult this might be to implement, or if it's even possible, but I thought it would be a thematically cool idea that wouldn't be as potentially overpowered as just adding a chain effect to Electric Blast powers as an inherent ability.
The chance would have to be pretty small (like 10-15%) to avoid being overpowered, but I thought it could be a cool addition to the set. Plus it would look cool to see electricity arc off the ball of Tesla Cage and hit a random target.
I had another suggestion in there as well, but my wife convinced me that one was a bad idea.
Edit: Also, a possible solution to the KB comlpaint about Force of Thunder. Simply add a tiny amount of damage to it, similar to other stun powers. That way someone could slot the KB modifier IO in it if they are so inclined. Simply changing it to KD would annoy some people, because they LIKE the fact that it will get an entire spawn at once out of their melee range. But if you added a tiny amount of damage and let it be slotted for damage, people could choose for themselves whether they want to modify it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That would solve the 'DfB' issue; giving it a Disintegrate-esque mechanic to work off of.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A chance to chain added to ALL Electric Blast attacks would probably be a little overpowered.
I was going to keep this to myself, since I PMed Hawk with it directly already (no, he hasn't responded), but I had an idea to add a chain effect to Electric Blast that wouldn't alter too much. In light of the mechanic introduced with Time Manipulation and used to buff Gravity, my idea was to use that mechanic in Electric Blast. If you fire your tier 1 or tier 2 blast at an enemy who is affected by Tesla Cage (most Electric Blasters take Tesla Cage, right?), it will have a chance to chain to up to 5 nearby targets. Note that I said "affected by" not "held by", so it will still work on GMs and AVs who are difficult to hold. I have no idea how difficult this might be to implement, or if it's even possible, but I thought it would be a thematically cool idea that wouldn't be as potentially overpowered as just adding a chain effect to Electric Blast powers as an inherent ability. The chance would have to be pretty small (like 10-15%) to avoid being overpowered, but I thought it could be a cool addition to the set. Plus it would look cool to see electricity arc off the ball of Tesla Cage and hit a random target. I had another suggestion in there as well, but my wife convinced me that one was a bad idea. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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right, it was to keep domination from being uber so that permadom was a must|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Umm.... no, that's not why it was done. The damage boost was removed from domination when the dominator AT got a WHOLE SALE DAMAGE SCALE BUFF. It wasn't to keep domination from being OP, it was to:
a) Reduce the disparity between permadom and SO builds b) Make the secondaries that had Aim or BU not have those be useless powers with domination taking up most of the damage buff cap room. |
making this change to snipe would put back the disparity between permadom and SO builds
Before insta-Snipe:
Build Up and Aim are awesome and we must build for recharge so we can use them again and again. Moar Damage!!
After insta-Snipe:
So much work. Can we get some easier way to insta snipe? Because clicking Build Up and Aim is such a burden and I hate doing it.
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