Ask Anything: Ranged Blast and Blaster Manipulation Changes
By
Abysmalyxia,
Posted on: 2012-06-21 13:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually Arctic Fax is right Dug.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
right, it was to keep domination from being uber so that permadom was a must
making this change to snipe would put back the disparity between permadom and SO builds |
This change would no put back the disparity between the two builds because domination is up VERY often even on SO's only. He agreed to reduce the damage scale on Snipes if he was going to go with this change also. Plus Synapse promised a special addition to the Snipe change for dominators anyway and Doms currently are the least able to benefit from their snipe change since they only have One Build up power and no way to really Add To Hit from their APP or PPP besides Soul Drain.
What do you propose change wise that would be a better way for Doms to take advantage of this Snipe change just like all the other ATs?
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Yes, I think they should have. I keep going back to Stalkers as Assassin's Strike is essentially a melee snipe, but that power was able to be made "sometimes uninterruptible" without tying it into a specific power or a specific effect, but rather by giving it a mechanic of its own. Sure, you can argue that "any Stalker attack" counts as specific, but it's not as specific as this. Granted, Hawk did say they'd considered other options, so I'm sure they considered ways to do this without relying on to-hit. I'm just wishing they'd gone with one of those, instead.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Should they have designed it so it works for people who prefer not to take Aim and Build Up at all?
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Then again, when discussing Blaster Snipes, I recall saying "I have no idea how you could fix them without just making them plain uninterruptible," so no, I can't really give you an example of what I'd have expected to see.
Really, though, what bothers me is that Blasters are apparently not seen as playing for burst damage but rather for sustained such, and this simply baffles me. Sustained damage requires the ability to sustain it over a period of time, i.e. live long enough to do it, and when it comes to Blasters... That really isn't the case. I've said it before in other threads, but at no point did I ever feel like my Blasters weren't doing "enough" damage, with the possible exception of Dual Pistols. What they weren't doing is deal enough damage -for how long they survive.- That's why sustained damage metrics like DPS don't work very well for me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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How about electric blast attacks having a chance to chain against pet, underling, minion, lieutenant and boss class enemies with a short radius?
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Please keep perspective though.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
This change would no put back the disparity between the two builds because domination is up VERY often even on SO's only.
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If people see the snipe change as "Oh, now we *HAVE* to be perma +22% ToHit or else this change is trash!", then it's easily percievable that making snipes instant cast while domination is up would be seen as "Oh, now we *HAVE* to be perma-dom or else you're gimp!"
Beside that, it starts to widen the damage margins of assault sets that don't have snipes. What happens to Earth, Thorn and Icy Assault that don't get snipes? It's not like the power they obtain in place of the snipe (for Earth, they get Mudpots instead of a snipe, for Thorns it's Thorntrops and for Icy it's Chilling Embrace) are particularly strong. Useful perhaps, but not enough utility to counter the offensive advantage of losing an insta-snipe during domination, IMO.
Personally, I think just keeping insta-snipe away from Domination is just the easiest path since giving that to Domination just requires more balancing of other assault sets.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, could there please be a review of blazing aura's endurance cost, in light of the fact that the sustain changes are meant to reduce downtime for blasters. Blazing aura has a huge endurance cost of 0.78/s, which seems way out of whack for its realtively useless tick damage at a max range of 8ft.
I assume you buffed BA as it was not selected very often and you wanted to make it more attractive. However to me it just reduces the attractiveness of the sustain buff, especially given the snipe change will likely push most to run tactics aswell.
If not, why not add it to consume and reduce the recharge/end buff appropriately? Consume often provides a big chunk of wasted endurance above end bar capacity - cut the buff and recharge to spread out the benefit and tag on some regen seems a nicer option.
@Electronuts
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Addressed above:|
Originally Posted by Electronuts
If it hasn't already been mentioned, could there please be a review of blazing aura's endurance cost, in light of the fact that the sustain changes are meant to reduce downtime for blasters. Blazing aura has a huge endurance cost of 0.78/s, which seems way out of whack for its realtively useless tick damage at a max range of 8ft.
I assume you buffed BA as it was not selected very often and you wanted to make it more attractive. However to me it just reduces the attractiveness of the sustain buff, especially given the snipe change will likely push most to run tactics aswell. If not, why not add it to consume and reduce the recharge/end buff appropriately? Consume often provides a big chunk of wasted endurance above end bar capacity - cut the buff and recharge to spread out the benefit and tag on some regen seems a nicer option. |
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
The +Rec on the new powers is quite sizeable, and in many cases Endurance costs for the powers required have been reduced or eliminated. We felt it didn't make a ton of sense to spend endurance to get Recovery in these powers.
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Unless Tescla Cage gets a significant damage buff, I would feel quite agreived at it being a required power to take and fit into my attack chain in order to get a buff (especially a chain buff of no benefit against single hard targets, which is where Elec falls down most).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
....If you fire your tier 1 or tier 2 blast at an enemy who is affected by Tesla Cage (most Electric Blasters take Tesla Cage, right?), it will have a chance to chain to up to 5 nearby targets....
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I would rather they changed voltaic sentinel so while it is out it 'supercharged' me and layered its attacks on top of mine. That way i wouldn't care if it followed 10 ft behind me and it would mean concentrating the damage where it is wanted.
@Electronuts
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Thanks and woohoo, properly looking forward to seeing this on test |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This was specifically in reference to a comment about Blazing Aura.
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@Electronuts
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Not addressing playstyle, specifically addressing numbers only.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This strikes me as a pretty big assumtion. The animation time of both Aim and Build Up is 0.67s or thereabout, which is not a lot of wasted potential when you consider taking down a large threat FAST is currently a Blaster's most potent form of self-defence. Staggering them increases damage over time by spreading the buff, yes, but "time" is something that Blaster design does not offer a lot of.
To me, it's a much safer assumption that people use BOTH at the same time so they can two-shot troublesome lieutenants. |
Both BU and Aim have 1.17 cast times. That's 1.32 arcanatime rooting. The buff duration is 10 seconds so barring other factors like lag you're losing over 13% of the buff duration of whichever one you cast first. That's a lot.
Staggering BU and Aim isn't "spreading out the buff" because each power's uptime is usually low in most builds. Rather, its allowing for two bursts over cycle time instead of one. The question is whether its better to have two smaller bursts than one larger one.
BU has +100% damage and Aim has +62.5% damage. Now there will always be times when stacking is better and staggering is better, but the question is how often is each likely to be true. In this case, the context is best asked within the context of snipe.
Snipe does 2.76 scale damage. From level 20 to level 50 that ranges from 48.8% of minion health down to 40.1% of minion health. Slotted snipe plus BU deals between 118% and 144% of minion health, which is a kill. Slotted snipe plus Aim deals between 103% and 126% of minion health. That's also generally a kill.
Against Lts, slotted snipe plus BU deals between 59.3% and 72.3% of Lt health. That's not a kill. But slotted snipe plus BU plus Aim deals between 71.9% and 87.6%. That's *also* not a kill. So the difference between stacking and not stacking won't be the difference in a one-shot kill attempt on an LT most of the time.
How much faster will stacking BU and Aim make a kill? Well, looking at just averages for a minute, BU+Aim will increase damage relative to just BU from about 2.95 to 3.575. That's an increase of 21%. So it should decrease the amount of time to make a kill by about 18.5% (1/1.21 would be the new kill time). But it has also reduced the amount of time you have to make such kills by 13.2%. And its *also* reduced the frequency at which you can get any sort of burst by half.
In effect, saying its so critical to survival to stack Aim with BU now that its worth giving up a large percentage of the total strength of both powers is tantamount to saying you're likely going to be dead 30 seconds from now, except for special circumstances. If you are in that bad of a situation, stacking isn't actually helpful in the long run, because there's no long run.
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| And in any even, isn't making a powerset change specifically aimed at a subset of how people play kind of narrow? I get that the same can be said about how the Stalker changes were aimed towards the playstyle of scrapping Stalkers, but at least in THAT case it was easy enough to demonstrate that the Hide mechanic is significantly broken at the core engine level. I can't agree that it's as easy to demonstrate that stacking Aim and Build Up is a broken and bad way to play, especially considering it's the one and only way I've been able to get a Blaster to 50 without tearing my hair out. After all, the longer you drag a battle out by lacking damage to end it quickly, the more likely you are to get cheap-shot killed, because the difference between victory and defeat for a Blaster really does come down to a single enemy attack hitting or missing, a lot of the time. |
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Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack.
I'm already seeing the mentality and the builds -- since Devices can perma insta-snipe, then you only take Devices and build around that. The new Blaster min-maxer has emerged: Any-Set-with-Snipe / Devices.
Favored legacy toons may be respecked by some Blasters to access Snipes and use the tools available at level 50 to make it (nearly) perma. But all new Blasters will be some from the Devices.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack. I'm already seeing the mentality and the builds -- since Devices can perma insta-snipe, then you only take Devices and build around that. The new Blaster min-maxer has emerged: Any-Set-with-Snipe / Devices. Favored legacy toons may be respecked by some Blasters to access Snipes and use the tools available at level 50 to make it (nearly) perma. But all new Blasters will be some from the Devices. |
Even with insta-snipe; would that be enough to justify foregoing a different secondary (for overall DPS; ST and/or AoE)?
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I'm no math whiz, but with dev you're still giving up quite a bit to get that insta-snipe.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack. |
Maybe it'll work out to be so amazing people won't miss Build Up, and won't mind getting saddled with junky powers like Time Bomb, Gun Drone, Smoke Grenade & Taser.
But I doubt it.
Devices has basically sucked since ED- this change makes it worth taking again. But as a longtime /dev player, I don't see it creating any kind of super overwhelming advantage that makes other secondaries obsolete. Even with this major buff /dev still has problems.
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Just like how right now no one ever uses devices because it sucks so badly?|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack. I'm already seeing the mentality and the builds -- since Devices can perma insta-snipe, then you only take Devices and build around that. The new Blaster min-maxer has emerged: Any-Set-with-Snipe / Devices. Favored legacy toons may be respecked by some Blasters to access Snipes and use the tools available at level 50 to make it (nearly) perma. But all new Blasters will be some from the Devices. |
More likely, some people will do that, and most people will ignore them, and there will be a few more /dev blasters in the world.
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Oh I always try to keep an open perspective Leo_G and I understand where you are coming from.
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Please keep perspective though.
If people see the snipe change as "Oh, now we *HAVE* to be perma +22% ToHit or else this change is trash!", then it's easily perceivable that making snipes instant cast while domination is up would be seen as "Oh, now we *HAVE* to be perma-dom or else you're gimp!"
Beside that, it starts to widen the damage margins of assault sets that don't have snipes. What happens to Earth, Thorn and Icy Assault that don't get snipes? It's not like the power they obtain in place of the snipe (for Earth, they get Mudpots instead of a snipe, for Thorns its Thorntrops and for Icy it's Chilling Embrace) are particularly strong. Useful perhaps, but not enough utility to counter the offensive advantage of losing an insta-snipe during domination, IMO.
Personally, I think just keeping insta-snipe away from Domination is just the easiest path since giving that to Domination just requires more balancing of other assault sets.
I think that the Powers Team knew that the task they were taking on with blasters and snipes could potentially be A LOT of work but I think that they were willing to take the plunge to help out the Ranged players of COH.
Here's my opinion about both paths and how each path has it pluses and minuses.
Keeping with 22% To Hit with Snipes for Dominators
Making Insta-Snipe achievable with Domination
There will have to be changes and adjustments no matter how you look at it honestly and I think that it would take less work and make more people happy if they made insta-snipe achievable/reduce the damage scale of dom snipes with Domination.
If they took the Domination-Insta-snipe route they would have to look at 3 sets only.
If they kept it at 22% only they would have to look at 5 sets :/.
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I recall you mentioned earlier that increasing the blaster tactics to 10% would allow all of the other secondaries to achieve perma insta snipes with tactics + kismet. Just by doing that other blaster secondaries become more viable (but still must take maneuvers or assault) and devices comes out ahead by not having to dip into pools for two powers. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack. I'm already seeing the mentality and the builds -- since Devices can perma insta-snipe, then you only take Devices and build around that. The new Blaster min-maxer has emerged: Any-Set-with-Snipe / Devices. Favored legacy toons may be respecked by some Blasters to access Snipes and use the tools available at level 50 to make it (nearly) perma. But all new Blasters will be some from the Devices. |
Hopefully, the powers that be will tweak this
EDIT: Thinking back on how awesome the stalker changes were, why not just use that as the model for snipes since it benefits all of the users more evenly.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Will Energy Torrent in the MM APP Field Mastery be buffed up to 80ft from its current 40ft?
Please say yes. Oh dear God please say yes.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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No, it is only the 40ft/50ft SINGLE target blasts that are being boosted to 80ft.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Will Energy Torrent in the MM APP Field Mastery be buffed up to 80ft from its current 40ft?[/SIZE]
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
EDIT: Thinking back on how awesome the stalker changes were, why not just use that as the model for snipes since it benefits all of the users more evenly. |
As the devs view ranged attacks differently from melee attacks we're not getting a strings-free auto-snipe.
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Thinking about this again, I'll probably still skip snipes on my blasters who are not /dev or /energy
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
While it was a brilliant idea to do two buffs at once, namely, buff Snipe Attacks that has a prerequisite which Blaster Devices can easily meat, and thus, Devices is buffed; it instead has created a problem: Devices have become the go-to secondary for any Blaster that's going to use a Snipe attack. I'm already seeing the mentality and the builds -- since Devices can perma insta-snipe, then you only take Devices and build around that. The new Blaster min-maxer has emerged: Any-Set-with-Snipe / Devices. Favored legacy toons may be respecked by some Blasters to access Snipes and use the tools available at level 50 to make it (nearly) perma. But all new Blasters will be some from the Devices. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
No, it is only the 40ft/50ft SINGLE target blasts that are being boosted to 80ft.
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... So
Grumble mumble darn KB is always knocking stuff too far out of range.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I can't remember specifically but Arbiter Hawk is looking into a way for Blasters to benefit from Snipes just as much or more than the other ATs.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Thinking about this again, I'll probably still skip snipes on my blasters who are not /dev or /energy
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I'm sorry but I really don't see this happening. Yes Devices is getting a boost but it's in an area where it has traditionally lagged behind other sets: single target damage. The lack of Build Up and the lack of strong melee attacks has given a Devices Blaster weaker single target attacks than other sets (which can either make melee attacks or use Build Up to buff single target attacks from their primary).|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Problem: City of Devices
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Will Devices become more popular? Definitely, in fact it may even become the FotM for a while until people realize that FastSnipe is not actually that great. By taking Devices you gain FastSnipe but you lose access to the more varied abilities in other sets (besides Build Up) such as:
AoE Slows and controls in Ice
Sapping and Endurance recovery in Electricity
Range Boost and strong melee damage in Energy
AoE Stun and melee damage in Darkness, along with a scaling damage buff
LOTs of damage in Fire
AoE damage and recharge slows in Mental
So yeah I think Devices will probably end up being FotM for a while, but I don't expect it to last.
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Well, Not Icy Assault.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
[*]+This will be great for Secondaries that have Power Boost Based powers like Icy Assault, Energy Assault.
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| [*]- Doms only have 1 build/Powerboost power and they have even fewer options for building up To Hit than Scrappers and Stalkers and Snipes are baked in the secondaries of Assault Sets! This makes Snipes not even worth taking if you're a Dom unless you like snipes...and that means that you already took your snipe anyway before the change...you are an exception believe me. |
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| [*]- Fiery Assault wouldn't benefit from the Snipe change at all since Embrace of fire doesn't even boost To Hit, so why would you want to take it? Yes they are getting a boost to blaze but still the lack of not achieving To hit organically is a slap in the face even to a crazy awesome set like Fiery Assault.[*]- Psionic Assault doesn't have an Aim/Power Boost power so that's another set that wouldn't benefit from the snipe change. |
But then I'm in the school of belief that, just because the power is interruptible and takes time to cast, doesn't mean it's a useless power sitting in your tray. You can still click it and it will still produce damage. So I find it hard to believe anyone's alienated here unless you really think snipes cannot be used in any other circumstance but with +22% ToHit bonus.
And yeah, of course buffing everything until everything is buffed is probably the more desired goal around here. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. Ranged sets need help because ranged sets have been balanced in a wonky way. Assault sets? When has there ever been anything wrong with Assault sets (except Icy)?
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I appreciate you taking time to hold a dialog with us.
I like what you've done with the Blaster PBAoE toggles. Those powers have always been rather suspect to me.
I apologize if the following is too critical and I hae failed to see something: I have to confess I'm not a fan of having a magic number that unlocks instant-sniping. I just don't think it works. It's going to send too many Defender and Corruptor builds scurrying for Tactics. I may hae missed something in the thread that changed things, but with this change Tactics will now be a required power for any Corruptor or Defender build with a Snipe who doesn't happen to be a Time Manipulator.
I would personally even vote to just give Blasters a straight blast that completely replaces the snipe, everyone else keeps the snipe and it's made useful in some other way. The +22% hit requirement makes builds significantly less interesting to me. Worse yet, Kismet is an IO that goes in a defense power. If there is any trend I think that does not need reinforcing, it's squishy builds pushed into taking defense powers because of how they synergize with Recharge (thanks to the Luck of the Gambler). Now we're throwing ToHit onto that. Kismet was already a pretty useful IO but this makes it essentially mandatory for any build that is een semi-serious.
Regarding +Range to powers, I think thats ok but I would personally vote that that change should apply to the Blaster version ONLY. I say this as someone who only really plays Dominators and Corruptors with any level of seriousness. Give me a reason to want to play Blasters. My Corruptors and especially my Dominators do not need that buff. Note that by boosting sets like Fire Blast on a Corruptor you are defacto eliminating the small advantage Psychic Blast has, because one of the very few advantages of that set is its range.
Overall, most of these changes seem to reinforce for me, rather than eliminate, reasons I tend to avoid Blasters in the first place. Perhaps I am missing someting in this thread, but I just am not seeing how they come out ahead. It seems to put Corruptors significantly ahead and increase the range of my Dominators, who in some cases were rolled in place of Blasters. I don't think either Corruptors or Dominators need these buffs at all. (Defenders might, but IMO what they really need is something toset them apart from Corruptors.)
Greetings Arbiter Hawk!
My questions are this! With the possible changes that are coming down the line with Voltaic Sentinel I was wondering is there any possible way that Lightning Storm from the Storm Summing Set can be looked at? It took quite a hit when the Pet AI was fixed and even though Storm Summoning itself is plenty Powerful I believe that for a Stationary Tier 9 Lightning Storm underperforms.
Also my other question is about Trick Arrow. I love the new Change to Poison Gas Arrow but I think that Defenders and Corruptors still have a tough time soloing with that set due to lack of sufficent mitigation. Is there a possible way that PGA could be a mag 3 instead a Mag 2?
A Mag 3 sleep would be able to safely sleep LTs so you can debuff before you blast since blasting them will wake them up anyway. If you can't make it a mag 3 is there a way that you can make some adjustments so one can stack the Mag 2 with enough Recharge?
I find that my biggest issue with playing TA is survivability I think that it needs a little more but I feel that bump to PGA is a slow step in the right direction.
Thanks!