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Saw her finally in the Magi trial.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
She's actually not in Carnival Garb - it's more Resistance appearing. And quite... form fitting, if I say so myself.
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She's been working out for sure, lol. She sports a mix of Resistance and CoL costume pieces, also what seems to be new tights...
Here is my prediction:
L24 Rise of the Hamidon
* (small) Level 40-50 praetorian zone, featuring Hamidon. A couple of zone story arcs, featuring Hamidon;
* New Incarnate trial, featuring Hamidon;
* Bio Armor and Nature Affinity powersets;
* Powerset proliferation, including Spines to Tankers and Brutes;
* Pool/APP customisation;
* Blaster tweaks.
Issue 24.5: Power of the Hamidon
* New Epic AT, featuring Hamidon;
* New pool powers.
I really should do something about this signature.
You missed Water Blast (Although we may or may not be getting that BEFORE I24 since it's on beta already while Bio Armor and Nature Affinity are not.)
Also, probably that leaked Sorcery Pool Power Set?
And yes, more proliferation please. I would love to make a Spines/Bio Armor Brute.
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
I think PRAF's pretty close to what we'll get, though he and I may be totally wrong. In particular, I assume the Primalist Epic AT will come at the same time as some Praetorian Devouring Earth-related content.
I predict that if his predictions are correct, the devs will continue to forget that Hamidon was ever a fanatical, narcissicistic human before becoming a monstrous ... monster. The team that wrote Praetoria, focused as it is on "fight the power of the Suits, man!" either doesn't recall or doesn't like the idea of an evil activist. Instead, we'll get more god-Hamidon, as well as no resolution of the mystery of how Praetorian Hamidon showed up decades before (originally human) Primal Hamidon Pasalima was even born.
(In case you can't tell, I feel that Hami is one of the more interesting and most villainous villains in the game.)
***
Hopes? I hope whoever's making the money decisions doesn't follow these fora, or the level of negativity (and I include myself here) will continue implying to them that the game isn't worth supporting any more.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
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Quote:
Why is it a "mystery" that Praetorian Hamidon shows up on Praetoria decades before Primal Hamidon Pasalima becomes Hamidon on Primal Earth? Is there a specific reason why you'd expect Praetorian Hamidon to appear either simultaneously with ours, or afterwards? It almost sounds like you are implying that no other dimension can invent something before ours does.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
I predict that if his predictions are correct, the devs will continue to forget that Hamidon was ever a fanatical, narcissicistic human before becoming a monstrous ... monster. The team that wrote Praetoria, focused as it is on "fight the power of the Suits, man!" either doesn't recall or doesn't like the idea of an evil activist. Instead, we'll get more god-Hamidon, as well as no resolution of the mystery of how Praetorian Hamidon showed up decades before (originally human) Primal Hamidon Pasalima was even born.
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The question is probably better stated as what caused Hamidon's appearance to be delayed on Primal Earth relative to Praetorian Earth, and the logical answer is that Primal Earth did not have the nuclear war that Praetorian Earth did, which may have both hastened the development of and strengthened the Will of Earth on Praetorian Earth.
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| Hopes? I hope whoever's making the money decisions doesn't follow these fora, or the level of negativity (and I include myself here) will continue implying to them that the game isn't worth supporting any more. |
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Well it's called Hamidon because that was the name of the Scientist who mutated. So if it turned up before the scientist in question was even born why was it called Hamidon.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Why is it a "mystery" that Praetorian Hamidon shows up on Praetoria decades before Primal Hamidon Pasalima becomes Hamidon on Primal Earth? Is there a specific reason why you'd expect Praetorian Hamidon to appear either simultaneously with ours, or afterwards? It almost sounds like you are implying that no other dimension can invent something before ours does.
The question is probably better stated as what caused Hamidon's appearance to be delayed on Primal Earth relative to Praetorian Earth, and the logical answer is that Primal Earth did not have the nuclear war that Praetorian Earth did, which may have both hastened the development of and strengthened the Will of Earth on Praetorian Earth. |
Now it's possible that it was an older scientist named Hamidon who just happened to do exactly the same thing. But in that case to quote Hermes Conrad: "That just raises more questions".
EDIT: Ok, I've been looking through the lore, do we have a specific Timeline for When Primal-Hamidon originally mutated? Tyrant's bio implies that Preatorian-Hamidon turned up within a few years of the end of the Korean War (so figure sometime between 1955 and 1960). Now the Lore seems to imply that the Devouring Earth first turned up in the aftermath of the Rikti War or approximately 45 years later. This would be pushing it for Primal-Hamidon and Preatorian-Hamidon to be the same person (not impossible but pushing it) but a reasonable explanation would be that Primal-Hamidon mutated earlier and was just being very quiet until after the Rikti war whereas Preatorian-Hamidon was more aggressive.
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I believe the devs have stated that Praetoria is not an Earth in which everything is exactly parallel except with goatees. Its possible Hamidon Pasalima was born earlier on this Earth, or Hamidon Pasalima's father ended up creating the Will of the Earth. Its definitely true that we cannot assume that Praetorian Hamidon is named after the same Hamidon Pasalima as Primal Earth's is, or that that individual even exists on Praetorian Earth.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well it's called Hamidon because that was the name of the Scientist who mutated. So if it turned up before the scientist in question was even born why was it called Hamidon.
Now it's possible that it was an older scientist named Hamidon who just happened to do exactly the same thing. But in that case to quote Hermes Conrad: "That just raises more questions". |
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My hope for I24 is that it hits Beta real soon.
And that origin power pools come along with it.
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I'll be honest, this really pushes my suspension of disbelief. I can understand WHY they do it that way I just don't care for it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe the devs have stated that Praetoria is not an Earth in which everything is exactly parallel except with goatees. Its possible Hamidon Pasalima was born earlier on this Earth, or Hamidon Pasalima's father ended up creating the Will of the Earth. Its definitely true that we cannot assume that Praetorian Hamidon is named after the same Hamidon Pasalima as Primal Earth's is, or that that individual even exists on Praetorian Earth.
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The general problem is that as the timeline advances the differences should multiply until the two are completely different. Based on Tyrants Bio it seems that Preatoria starts to diverge at WW2 and is almost completely diverged by the end of the Korean War (which went Nuclear). The problem I have is that even with 60+ years of very different history the actual specific events tend to be almost the same. Most of the characters still exist and have almost exactly the same backstory except for one or two events explaining why they are now evil.
I guess my point is that Preatoria doesn't diverge enough in general for me to accept places where it does diverge. Given that every other major character has the same basic backstory why would Hamidon suddenly be born earlier?
Now the idea that it was his father I think I could accept. Presumably Primal-Hamidon-Senior was also working on similar research but never perfected it leaving it to his son to do so. Whereas in Preatoria the Cold war was a lot Hotter which in turn lead to a more pressurized military research environment allowing Preatorian-Hamidon-Senior to advance further and faster becoming Hamidon rather than leaving it to his son (who was presumably not even born or was absorbed into Hamidon as a child).
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Putting my physics hat on, that statement has a lot of issues with it. But let me suggest one possible, if very speculative way around it. First of all, Praetoria does not seem to be an alternate timeline of our reality, but rather an alternate dimension with a parallel timeline. Its a completely different universe, in other words.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The general problem is that as the timeline advances the differences should multiply until the two are completely different.
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However, suppose we imagine that our universe and all parallel dimensions exist in a phase space in which each point in this phase space represents the entire state of the universe at that moment in time. Our universe would then trace out a path in this phase space parametrically over time.
If we assume travel between dimensions is comparable to travel between points in phase space, its logical to assume that the universes "closest" to us would be the ones with the most similar state. And those would be universes in which their current configuration happens to be similar to ours, even if their past state was significantly different. Universes with wildly divergent pasts from us can proceed in lots of different ways: they can continue to diverge from us, or they can evolve back towards us. It might be incredibly improbable that they evolve back towards us, but that probability would be irrelevant because the most likely trajectories send them off far enough away from us to be extremely difficult to reach in phase space. The only ones we can easily reach are the highly improbable, but nevertheless existing ones that are similar enough to us to be close enough to be easy to travel to.
In other words, if all possible universes exist, then probability doesn't matter, only distance. Extremely improbable universes will be the ones we tend to see, because the most probable ones end up radically different, and thus radically far away, from our own.
Yes, that doesn't explain goatee universes because the most likely divergences would be totally unnoticeable: a different configuration of air molecules in a room, for example**. But then again, all the superpowers in the game violate the laws of physics also: they have a certain plausibility, but not realism. I would not expect the physics of alternate dimensions to be any less plausible, but also no more realistic either.
** A modification of the theory suggests that travel in phase space is quantized, and its impossible to travel to universes that are too similar, and therefore too close, to your own.
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Quote:
Alternatively, the Cold War going hot made Praetorian Hamidon lose faith in humanity much faster than he did in Primal.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Now the idea that it was his father I think I could accept. Presumably Primal-Hamidon-Senior was also working on similar research but never perfected it leaving it to his son to do so. Whereas in Preatoria the Cold war was a lot Hotter which in turn lead to a more pressurized military research environment allowing Preatorian-Hamidon-Senior to advance further and faster becoming Hamidon rather than leaving it to his son (who was presumably not even born or was absorbed into Hamidon as a child).
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I would hope so, considering Primal Hamidon had a thing for Tanya Tyler, and she was still a fairly young woman in the "present". It'd be creepy to have her in a relationship with a man 50-60 years her senior. I can't decide if that's more or less creepy than her being in a relationship with a giant abomination of biology.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe the devs have stated that Praetoria is not an Earth in which everything is exactly parallel except with goatees. Its possible Hamidon Pasalima was born earlier on this Earth, or Hamidon Pasalima's father ended up creating the Will of the Earth. Its definitely true that we cannot assume that Praetorian Hamidon is named after the same Hamidon Pasalima as Primal Earth's is, or that that individual even exists on Praetorian Earth.
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Praetoria seems to have a problem in this area.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I would hope so, considering Primal Hamidon had a thing for Tanya Tyler, and she was still a fairly young woman in the "present". It'd be creepy to have her in a relationship with a man 50-60 years her senior. I can't decide if that's more or less creepy than her being in a relationship with a giant abomination of biology.
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Quote:
Unless Pitstop has different parents in Primal, doesn't that problem sort of extend across the dimensional barrier? Or are you referring to someone else?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Praetoria seems to have a problem in this area.
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That's kinda what I was getting at. If it has a parallel timeline where each individual follows the same path with minor variation why does Hamidon have a different path?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Putting my physics hat on, that statement has a lot of issues with it. But let me suggest one possible, if very speculative way around it. First of all, Praetoria does not seem to be an alternate timeline of our reality, but rather an alternate dimension with a parallel timeline. Its a completely different universe, in other words.
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It it was a perfectly parallel timeline then I'd expect Hamidon to follow the same timing. But if it isn't a perfectly parallel timeline then I'd expect more people to have different timelines. I guess there are other heroes/villains who had a radically different path and/or don't exist but we don't see any proof of it.
In any case as I said earlier I can see why the devs do the very-flexible-parallel thing it just kind of bugs me
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Stefan Richter and Gerhardt Eisenstadt would disagree with the notion that every individual followed the same path with minor variation.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
That's kinda what I was getting at. If it has a parallel timeline where each individual follows the same path with minor variation why does Hamidon have a different path?
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Quote:
You are missing the point. It's not a parallel Timeline, it's a diverging timeline. It apparently branched off round about 1914 and has been growing increasingly different ever since. Not minor variations, but great big stonking differences. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
That's kinda what I was getting at. If it has a parallel timeline where each individual follows the same path with minor variation why does Hamidon have a different path?
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| I guess there are other heroes/villains who had a radically different path and/or don't exist but we don't see any proof of it. |
As for the Hamidons, we have no reason to suppose they where ever the same person. Herd of convergent evolution? The comic books have several examples of instances where different people become the same hero (or villain) in alternate universe or parallel timelines.
And the existing origin of Hamidon story? I always felt that wasn't the whole story, and was very unconvincing as to how he grew so enormously powerful so quickly.
And if you don't like that, then there is always Time Travel. Perhaps Mender Silos sent Praetorian* Hamidon into the past, because it's a Nemesis Plot.
*Or possibly Primal Hamidon will be sent into the past of Praetorian Earth, and there is only one Hamidon. Which would explain why he is more powerful - he has been growing and mutating for longer. Indeed this could be the "ground zero" (AKA Nero) event that caused the timelines to diverge. ( I really like this idea actually, since evolution would explain why Hamidon is a giant single celled organism on Primal Earth, but is a giant Audrey 2 on Praetoria).
I really should do something about this signature.
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It would have had to have branched off long before that, otherwise they would have had a Nemesis just like Primal Earth since he predates 1914.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
You are missing the point. It's not a parallel Timeline, it's a diverging timeline. It apparently branched off round about 1914 and has been growing increasingly different ever since. Not minor variations, but great big stonking differences.
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My pet theory is that the point of deviation between Primal and Praetorian Earth started on a little island named Cimerora. You may have heard of it?
On Primal Earth a bunch of supers and 5th Column, went back in time and changed a bunch of stuff, causing a stable time loop that also resulted many changes reverberating forward.
On Praetorian Earth; no 5th Column, no time loop. History played out as it "should" have.
Some things that may only have occurred on Primal Earth because of the time travel shenanigans:
-Romulus staged a failed coup. I presume he wouldn't have tried hadn't the 5th backed him.
-Sister Airlia was able to get in tight with Imperious. Without villain help, she may not have been able to.
-Imperious and Romulus were killed in a ritual by Sister Airlia. Wade says as much in SSA1, so I expect an upcoming villain arc where you help this occur.
-Mot ended up in the New World.
-Cimerora was brought to the attention of Talons of Vengeance. This may still have occurred in Praetoria but was delayed/hastened by us on Primal Earth.
-Marcus Valerius leaves Cimerora and dies in the new world.
And probably more things to come.
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Awhile back, I created a time mechanic who doesn't believe in actual time travel. This resulted in my having to try to do some mapping of how time travel might function in a multiverse set (since it otherwise wreaks merry hell with things like thermodynamics). |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Putting my physics hat on, that statement has a lot of issues with it. But let me suggest one possible, if very speculative way around it. First of all, Praetoria does not seem to be an alternate timeline of our reality, but rather an alternate dimension with a parallel timeline. Its a completely different universe, in other words.
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The result was a model of inter-dimensional physics where what we perceive as time travel is transit within very proximate universes at earlier or later states, with the appearance of changing history owing to confirmation bias and illusory correlation.
The problem with time travel being that, with an infinite or near infinite (that is, so numerous as to appear infinite from our perspective) number of destinations, you're standing inside a target rich environment. If you're aiming where you're standing, there's a decent chance of hitting something that looks enough like your target to fool you.
All timelines then, proximate or wildly divergent, are entirely parallel universes that may be proceeding through history at slightly different rates, with different values for matter and energy...not all universes need be created equal nor remain static (we observe and often /are/ matter and energy transiting between them), though broad similarities may be observed within a given set (since we're dealing with the Cityverse sets, we get repeating themes like Marcus Cole as a Nationalist for wildly varying ideologies from instance to instance, Cole and Richter at the Well of Furies with variances on who gets imbued with what old god, the foundation of a central metropolis around which major events turn because they tend to be drawn to these figures with variations on actual region, abnormally high efficiency/high energy organisms et cetera.)
Choice matters, but there is a tendency for closely matched instances to make the same or at least very similar choices, so any given pair of universes can go for a long time before significant differences show up above the individual level (you might favor wheat bread while another instance favors Ezekiel bread, but that kind of detail tends to be lost on the casual observer while everyone notices 'little' details like a hot-running cold war and the general biosphere of the planet being eaten by a deranged squidmoeba.)
This is especially important once you start looking at universes in different stages of development, since it creates the appearance of loops and paradoxes at the individual level, without actually violating causality. An instance of you in an older universe will tend to do what you would do, and in traveling to your younger universe will tend to set you up to do what they would do when your history reaches that stage of development.
You can't see the forest through the mes.
The des have said thast the divergence of the timelines started with the death of Stefan Richter at the Well of the Furies.
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What am I hoping for? Personally I'd like to see some revamps to Redside, though I'm thinking that may be just a taaaad further down the line. With the new SSA working on establishing a new villain organization to rival Arachnos, maybe in i25 we'll get some sort of takeover and the Rogue Isles will become not so spidery? Maybe this new group cleans things up a bit and makes it more of a sinister corporation style? Arachnos can still hold part of the territory, but this group can have certain areas or entire zones under their thumb so they've picked up the litter, made it look shiny? It would certainly be nice to have a villain area that DIDN'T look like a garbage dump. It's what keeps me from playing redside. Every single zone looks the same to me. At least give us ONE zone that looks nicer, even if it's a brand new zone.
I'm also hoping that we might finally got pool customization but I know that's pretty much not gonna happen that quickly. I'm thinking it'll be i26 or i27 before that pans out, but I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd also still love an underwater zone, but I'm not gonna hold my breathe (haha, puns).
What do I realistically expect? A new Praetorian zone with a new TF or Trial to take down the Praetorian Hamidon. My SG leader actually made a great point on this too: We'll probably be wandering into the wilderness of Praetoria, and with the nature themed enemies and areas we'll be getting Water Blast, Bio Armor and Nature Affinity, all organic/nature themed sets. Hell, maybe they'll even name the issue Back To Nature. It makes plenty of sense to me, and I'd love to see what those thickly wooded areas of Praetoria look like, see what the DE have done to the world when they were allowed to run loose. I don't know what to expect aside from that, but I'd imagine we'll get the cyberpunk set with the issue and probably run into some people living in the wilderness in a kind of Mad Max style wasteland society using bits of the costume pieces, maybe even some kind of nature cult/Devouring Earth devotees/Infected humans using nature powers so they can squeeze the new powersets into an enemy group to showcase them. Time will tell, but I think that's a pretty realistic expectation.
Some interesting stuff about what it means for Praetoria to be an "alternate universe" in this thread. But with regard to the emergence of Hamidon in particular, I still hold to the simplest explanation: the devs forgot or got confused about Hamidon's backstory. (There have been hints before that the story bible material related to Hamidon contains inconsistencies.) I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the devs are getting a pass on this inconsistency while they're constantly getting excoriated for other things, but, to use one of my generation's favorite words, whatever.
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Quote:
these are exactly all the things i would want to see |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Here is my prediction:
L24 Rise of the Hamidon * (small) Level 40-50 praetorian zone, featuring Hamidon. A couple of zone story arcs, featuring Hamidon; * New Incarnate trial, featuring Hamidon; * Bio Armor and Nature Affinity powersets; * Powerset proliferation, including Spines to Tankers and Brutes; * Pool/APP customisation; * Blaster tweaks. Issue 24.5: Power of the Hamidon * New Epic AT, featuring Hamidon; * New pool powers. |
with some more nature-based costume pieces.how long was i23 in beta after i22 released? and then how long was i23 in beta before it went live? as innnn when are the estimates for when i24 will hit beta?
and i REALLY hope any new AT with any new forms wont be another direct wolf and panther ports, but rather has new mutated creepy creature formes despite the refrence of wolf and panther that may or may not be in their descriptions... O_O. #sosickofwolfports.
:i cant wait yaaaaaay!:
also i hope there's a major twist with hamidon, and he's not just the giant uber-creature we were all expecting, and explains the difference between him and primal hami.
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Not really, again it's still the same basic story with one critical difference. In the case of Recluse he was killed at the Well of Furies instead of drinking from it. As with most of the other major characters it's a single point that radically changes his life without affecting much else.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Stefan Richter and Gerhardt Eisenstadt would disagree with the notion that every individual followed the same path with minor variation.
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Nemesis I don't think we can say much either way. Sure he didn't become a super villain but do we know why he became a super villain in the first place? In Preatoria maybe he just happened to miss a bus and therefore never sat next to an annoying old lady who annoyed him so much he decided to take over the world. This example is deliberately silly but again we can't say that his life doesn't follow the pattern of "exactly the same except for one minor difference".
I'll also add that in both cases the characters existed with approximately the same birthdate and timeline which does not appear to be true for Hamidon.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
You are missing the point. It's not a parallel Timeline, it's a diverging timeline. It apparently branched off round about 1914 and has been growing increasingly different ever since. Not minor variations, but great big stonking differences.
What?! Most of the Earth-as-we-know-it, billions upon billions of people, doesn't even exist in Praetoria, most of the Earth's population was killed in the Hamidon Wars. Not existing is pretty radically different. Recluse is dead. Ghost Widow is alive. Massive differences. |
Secondly (and this is the big one) given that it's a heavily divergent timeline why are the only people affected people we know? Pretty much every significant hero has a Preatorian counterpart which doesn't make sense if we assume an actual divergent timeline.
In any case at this point I think we might as well agree to disagree.
Did not played Magisterium yet... Cant wait!
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